Author Topic: Grisly stopper???? (Read 9776 times)

Qaz · « **Reply #120 on:** February 09, 2006, 06:43:55 AM »

I watched the Grizzly man this past weekend on tv. Holy cow, Tredwell really lost it. The original documentry was pretty good, but the parts that were cut out showed the true man.
Now he was a "grizzly stopper", the bear that ate him probably had some serious indigestion right after that.

Qaz

corbanzo · « **Reply #121 on:** February 09, 2006, 04:26:23 PM »

So when are they going to make a .50BMG pistol.... there'sa griz stopper for you.... or maybe a .700NE, .577 tauranosaus, or maybe a B-32 bersa? Yeah, lets make a contract with someone to make something that rediculous!! Actually, if you could shoot that, and not rip your arm off, you could probably punch a griz out!!

Heavyhaul · « **Reply #122 on:** February 09, 2006, 04:42:22 PM »

I'm just learning here. Tell me why you need a handgun that you feel confortable with, or can shoot accurately. This seems to be a self defense thing like with a human attacker, just harder to stop. Seems to me that till you know that you need defense, react, and fire, this object should be close enough that you cna hardly miss. As far as power, wuld you rather carry a .22 as conceal carry or nothing. I don't think that I would hesitate to pull the trigger on a 416 Rigby pistol if a Griz or a Brown was attacking me. I think that if you can't stop it with one shot, I think you need what ever you can hang on to and shoot repeatedly. I'm no expert, just a little common sense. :?

wyocarp · « **Reply #123 on:** February 09, 2006, 04:53:14 PM »

Corbanzo, here is your request for the 50BMG pistol.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/601.htm

Qaz · « **Reply #124 on:** February 10, 2006, 04:16:01 AM »

Heavyhaul- Shooting an animal is not like shooting a person, they are wired differently. A person usually reacts to pain by withdrawing from the source. An animal when in attack mode will focus on the object and will continue to attack, even in pain.
A Grizzly may be between 500lbs to 1200lbs, he can run 30+mph and can break a bulls neck with a single blow. If he only runs into you, you were just hit by a small car. If he stops short and takes a swing, you will be like the ball after one of Reggie Jacksons home runs. The point is, you don't want to let the bear get close enough to you that he can touch you. In this case the best defense is a good offense. You want enough gun to stop him on the first shot. Getting a first shot on a chargeing bear is rare, a second shot is almost unheard of.
The preceeding posts were just a debate on various fire arms ability to kill a bear. The truth is, not my truth, but the truth is that no presently built pistol caliber is a known grizzly stopper and very few rifle calibers are either. The true bear stoppers start at 375 and end as big as they go. When a bear is coming to eat you, you want a sledge hammer, not a ballpeen hammer.
You need to be comfortable with the firearm to shoot it accurately. You need to be able to take out the bears main curcuits. For most people, the 44mag is the biggest handgun they are comfortable with the recoil and the 30-06 is the biggest rifle caliber. If you have ever fired a larger than 44mag pistol, you know the recoil goes up considerably. In this situation, 1/2 seconds count (a bear can cover alot of ground in a half second) and hesitation is the enemy. A good way to look at this is with a 12ga shot gun. Light #8 2 3/4 loads are very comfortable to shoot. Now drop in a full house 3in magnum slug and pull the trigger. The next time you shoot this load, you may hesitate slightly from the anticpation of the kick. That is not what you want when shooting dangerous game.
I am sure there will be people that disagree with what I have written. This is not based on one account but the many accounts from history and what is recognised as the accepted standard. Things happen every day in the firearms industry and the above may change tomarrow, but I doubt it. I hope this helps and by the way, you may pull the trigger once on a 416 Rigby pistol, but I bet you will not do it twice without some thought!

Qaz

wyocarp · « **Reply #125 on:** February 10, 2006, 08:51:10 AM »

Qaz, I'll be the first to disagree with you on your last post. You mentioned the thought of withdrawing from an attack. I've had game wardens ask if I had thought about turning or running. As I have told them, if you are standing there with a weapon in your hand that will kill what is coming at you then it doesn't cross your mind.

You have mentioned the level of comfort with large bore weapons as something someone might think about if someone is charged by a bear. From personal experience, I'll tell you that it doesn't enter one's mind. I would never shoot one of my .500's without hearing protection! But in a charge I have been able to empty the gun and not have it affect my hearing at all and it didn't even cross my mind until I was reloading.

I know the recoil is stiff on full house loads in my .500's, but it wasn't even a wisper of a thought in the heat of the moment. Also, accuracy isn't a big concern. We are talking distances that are so close that it is either a hit or a miss (just like in the game battleship). One isn't looking for the quartering away shots. The animal is running at you and the main concern is getting as much lead into the animal as possible as quickly as possible.

The ability to stay somewhat calm I think would be more important than accuracy. The only thoughts I can remember are one's like (in order); cool (seeing the animal so close), crap (it's deciding to eliminate me), I can't believe this is happening, shoot, shoot again, it's still moving shoot again, wow that was incredible.

thales · « **Reply #126 on:** February 11, 2006, 01:47:25 AM »

*

About ten years ago I was browsing in a bookstore and picked up a book on Alaska bear encounters. I flipped to a page at random and read about three guys that were fishing from a boat. One of them went ashore to pick some berries and the others continued fishing. After a while, they heard a shout and looked over to see their buddy being run down by a brown bear. The bear caught up with him in about ten steps and knocked his head off with one swat. I guess turning and running away might not work.

Please keep in mind that bears are unpredictable. Even a rather dim bear is smarter than the smartest dog you ever saw. They have their own distinct personalities; some are shy, some are bold, some are mean. They're all hungry and none of them are afraid of you. Think of a shaggy, 800 pound pit bull that really wants a meal and wonders if you might taste good.

Everybody knows about not getting between a sow and her cubs. Wearing bells and making noise will help you with mama bear because she is protective and will probably try to avoid suspicious things. But there are a couple other bear situations that tend to get people killed.

A bear guarding a kill is pretty bad news. It's easy to stumble upon if you don't smell it first because the bear is usually quiet and defensive. This is especially true in cover. Nothing is going to make him leave that kill except a bigger, meaner bear. He probably hasn't ever seen a man or a gun before and has no fear of a puny little man. He does regard you as a potential thief, however, and will treat you accordingly. That can be difficult to live through.

Another bad news bear is the adolescent or young adult male that is feeling his oats and thinks he ought to be king of the woods. If he has recently had his attitude adjusted by that bigger, meaner bear then he will have a major chip on his shoulder. He will want to relieve his feelings by beating something up; if you happen to be around then guess what?

Everybody knows that a rifle is better bear medicine than a handgun. The trouble is that you have to carry a rifle and it gets to be a burden when you're busy so you set it down someplace handy. This happens all the time in the bush, especially when you're using your hands a lot, like when you're fishing or doing camp chores or eating or unloading your last meal, etc. Then you quit thinking for a minute and let yourself get more than arm's reach from the rifle, and that's when Mr. Surly Bear shows up to ruin your fishing trip.

A shotgun is better than a rifle in the context of bear defense. A pump or auto with a barrel of eighteen or twenty inches and an extended magazine is a lot handier and faster shooting than most rifles. Three inch magnum slugs are just as effective as any man-portable rifle up to fifty yards, including all the popular heavy magnum rifles. The shotgun is still too cumbersome to carry all the time, but it would still be my first choice to keep near to hand in camp, in the boat, by the tackle box, etc.

We all know that a handgun is a last resort weapon. Even the most powerful handguns are on the weak side for bear, but they're still a lot better than looking for a sharp stick in a desperate hurry. The advantage of the handgun is handiness; you carry a rifle or shotgun, but you wear a handgun. Use the biggest and most powerful gun that you can shoot well that is simultaneously small and light enough to wear all the time. For me, that happens to be a S&W 329PD in .44 Magnum, loaded with Federal 300gr CastCores, carried in a cross-draw shoulder holster.

Shot placement is everything. A bear's strength and stamina are incredible. Even if you shoot that bear right through the heart with a magnum rifle, he might be able to do a good job of chewing your head off before he notices he's dying. Even if he only wounds you, you're dead meat without prompt and competent medical attention. You need a brain shot or upper spinal cord shot; no ifs ands or buts. Do or die.

Take that pistol shooting a lot. Wear it out and then get another one. Practice quick drawing and point shooting as well as accurate aimed fire. Do or die.

*

Balto · « **Reply #127 on:** February 11, 2006, 01:49:39 PM »

Thales,

I agree with 100% on your approach to firearms in Bear country.

For some people the 500 S&W is appropriate if they take your advice. For others, the .45 colt, .44 mag, and still others it may be a .41 (again if they take your advice).

I have daughters that I think do to their temperament, mind set, busy lives, etc., may settle for a .41 or even a .357 (yes .357). Most important is safety and proficiency. I do not want to saddle them with something that will not get shot alot or sits in the gun safe. Anything is better than nothing. Youth being what it is you will not stop them from going fishing. Lots of people go without firearm. It is all a gamble and it is all subjective.

Do to commitments, time , etc. I personnaly choose a weapon that meet your requirements as I want to shoot it a lot. For me it is a .44 mag with 300 grain bullets.

I think the key is to shoot it a lot, become familliar with your firearm, learn the lock time, how it bucks in your hand, how it pulls to the right or left under stress and what it will do up close........Balto

Balto · « **Reply #128 on:** February 11, 2006, 01:52:17 PM »

Thales,

I agree with 100% on your approach to firearms in Bear country.

For some people the 500 S&W is appropriate if they take your advice. For others, the .45 colt, .44 mag, and still others it may be a .41 (again if they take your advice).

I have daughters that I think do to their temperament, mind set, busy lives, etc., may settle for a .41 or even a .357 (yes .357). Most important is safety and proficiency. I do not want to saddle them with something that will not get shot alot or sits in the gun safe. Anything is better than nothing. Youth being what it is you will not stop them from going fishing. Lots of people go without firearm. It is all a gamble and it is all subjective.

Do to commitments, time , etc. I personnaly choose a weapon that meet your requirements as I want to shoot it a lot. For me it is a .44 mag with 300 grain bullets.

I think the key is to shoot it a lot, become familliar with your firearm, learn the lock time, how it bucks in your hand, how it pulls to the right or left under stress and what it will do up close........Balto

Heavyhaul · « **Reply #129 on:** February 12, 2006, 06:03:21 PM »

Qaz
I understand all of what you said. My wife doesn't care to shoot my .357. She is new to shooting. She keeps the 9mm handy when I am out of town. She can shoot repeatable at an intruder. But one thing is for sure, if she was being attacked by an intruder, she would not hesitate to use my 445 Supermag. I don't know if she would still be holding it after the first shot, and in a true attack situation, I'm not sure you could get very many more shots off. This is life or death, close quarters shooting. I wouldn't exactly advise it, but in that case I would shoot a Rigby pistol. A broken arm or digestive system would make the decision easy. Other than those circumstances, I wouldn't even watch someone else shoot thing. I was mainly wondering about the "feel comfortable with" part. Any recoil would be comfortable compared to claws and teeth. I just hope I never have the opprotunity to find out if I right. :grin:

ironfoot · « **Reply #130 on:** February 13, 2006, 03:00:23 PM »

I don't know the answer to the question...but that never stopped me from giving an opinion.

The reason to have a handgun is that you can wear it, and likely have it on you when you need it in an emergency. There used to be a website where a guy who actually survived a grizzly bear attack had some advice. He recommended a double action revolver, so that when the grizzly has you in its mouth, you can still shoot one-handed. Large guns like Ruger Super Redhawks with long barrels might not be handy for that. Maybe the S&W .44 magnum Mountain Gun would fit the bill as a big enough caliber to have some potential, while being light enough to wear all day. A heavy caliber rifle would be good to bring along as the primary defense weapon.

I was in Alaska this last year and got a tour of a Native American cultural center. An Indian woman gave the tour. She was probably in her sixties. She talked of being with her mother and grandmother when she was a child. They were picking berries. The young girl saw a grizzly with cubs across a small pond. She pointed at it, and said "bear!" Her mother grabbed her hand and started running to where the men were located. The bear saw the grandmother, and started toward her. In the blink of an eye, the grandmother had a fire going, which produced smoke. The bear turned tail and ran. So maybe something to start a fire quick? (I would want a flame thrower!!)

corbanzo · « **Reply #131 on:** February 20, 2006, 11:52:39 AM »

Yeah, getting to it is the key. I saw a guide up in AK this summer taking a few people camping, he had a 12 gauge sawed off with him...... strapped to his backpack with three different straps out of reach... good protection:) And that .50BMG pistol... dang. I'm a built 260 and wouldn't want to be behind that thing. Not saying I wouldn't, cause I like a good challenge. But most likely not twice. There are a lot of things that can work for bears, but guns are my particular cultures way

There was a native man in barrow who was attacked by a polar bear (bigger than grizzlies) and he just kept his arm straight up and down in front of him, because polars won't (or not usually) turn their heads sideways to bite, so he couldnt get his mouth around anything. The bear, who wasnt too big, saw the man wasnt going to give up, so he left.

Heavyhaul · « **Reply #132 on:** February 21, 2006, 03:42:14 PM »

Maybe a .45 black powder may be the ticket. Between the 6 shot of black powder, my boots smokin', and the brown trail I would be leaving, the bear would either be half as scared as me, or slip and fall. :-D

Biscuits · « **Reply #133 on:** February 28, 2006, 09:05:24 PM »

Not really a pistol but my uncle in Alaska keeps his Norinco under-folding stock AK-47 by his bed when he is sleeping in brown bear country. Might sound ridiculous but think about it: A cartridge ballistically equal to a 30/30 Win except youve got thirty at your disposal as fast as you can pull the trigger and in the most reliable auto loader ever made. Sounds like a winner to me even if you can't get all thirty off before he eats you it sure is comforting. I have no dought it would work as well or better than anything else in this situation.

tanoose · « **Reply #134 on:** March 01, 2006, 10:32:21 AM »

Hey guys does the state of Alaska allow non residents to bring in a handgun?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #135 on:** March 01, 2006, 01:19:54 PM »

Quote from: tanoose

Hey guys does the state of Alaska allow non residents to bring in a handgun?

You sure can, I bring mine for my hunts.

RUM runner · « **Reply #136 on:** March 02, 2006, 01:08:50 PM »

If you're gonna be around the big Bears, learn how to react to them. Learn their behaviors, and learn how to respond. Never assume you can stop one, even with the biggest gun you can pull the trigger on... I always carried a 4 5/8 SBH with 300gr. Lead loaded at about 1250 FPS. A lot of things will do the trick, just be sure you can handle it. But the simple truth is that if he is really coming after you, you probably will never know till you're in his mouth!

corbanzo · « **Reply #137 on:** March 02, 2006, 01:28:17 PM »

tanoose - Alaska is perfectly OK with you bringing any type of gun (legal that is) into Alaska. About a year ago (or more, dont remember), the concealed carry laws were done away with, meaning you can carry your arm how you would like, and transport it in your vehicle how you would like. Quite a few of my friends carry SBH's in .44mag, good gun.

fknipfer · « **Reply #138 on:** March 03, 2006, 04:40:10 AM »

I have in front of me some 12ga Rem 385gr Copper Core-Lokt Slugs (Sabot) they look awesome. On the box the data shows:
MV 50yds 100yds 200yds
1900fps 1770fps 1648fps 1426fps
ME
3086lbs 2682lbs 2325lbs 1741lbs

That means at 25yds if a grizzly came at you, you would have somewhere in the area of 2800 to 2900lbs of energy from a 385gr copper slug. Sounds impressive but who knows until tried. Of course this is from a rifled barrel shotgun.
Now I have S&W .44mag in 629 classic I have full of Buffalo Bore heavy loads which are pretty impressive. I think I would use the shotgun instead because of the size of bullet and energy available and only use the handgun as last resort.

fknipfer

corbanzo · « **Reply #139 on:** March 06, 2006, 11:11:41 AM »

I guess since I brought it up, I might as well give some details as to the laws in Alaska about pistols. Concealed weapons are legal to carry without permit, but you must identify you have a concealed weapon on your person if talking to an officer of the law. There is no problem with bringing your own firearm for use into Alaska, just keep with all airline regulations. If driving, Canada allows the transport of firearms, but has its own regulations. Check with the proper government agency for these.

It is illegal to bring weapons into schoolgrounds, courthouses, bars, care centers and shelters for children and domestic violence victims, or within another persons residence without first telling them and getting permission.

A gun is not considered concealed in a car unless it is concealed upon a person in the car.

Alaskan residents may still get a CC permit for reciprocity with other states.

I am going to post this in the Alaska hunting forum also.

RollTide · « **Reply #140 on:** March 27, 2006, 02:59:50 AM »

I just found the ultimate grizzly stopper. Small enough to carry everywhere, but about as powerful as one could expect of a handgun.

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Roll Tide

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #141 on:** March 27, 2006, 06:23:30 AM »

Looks like a blast.

TraderJack · « **Reply #142 on:** March 28, 2006, 07:10:01 PM »

Well the system didn't upload all the text so i MAY AS WELL FORGET IT - TOO LONG TO RECREATE - SDORRY.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #143 on:** March 29, 2006, 12:30:31 AM »

Quote from: TraderJack

Well the system didn't upload all the text so i MAY AS WELL FORGET IT - TOO LONG TO RECREATE - SDORRY.

http://www.serbu.com/index.html.

corbanzo · « **Reply #144 on:** March 29, 2006, 05:52:09 AM »

Yeah, it's a cool idea, but then you have the deal with the fact that it's a class three (as many of us don't have our ATF permit). They come out with some pretty neat stuff at serbu, like the pen gun, random silenced stuff.... interesting site to check out.

jeager106 · « **Reply #145 on:** March 30, 2006, 06:41:37 PM »

If I was fishing and there was threat of getting eaten by a bear I might just go home.
It's a fish!
That said if I simply had to catch salmon in bear country I see nothing wrong and everything right with tossing an 870 over your shoulder.
Load the thing with the right kind of slugs, not fosters, and no handgun is can ever be as effective.
If you don't have time to get the 870 into play you won't have time to clear leather either.

People hav mentioned that you should be able to hit a bouncing basketball to be able to hit a bear in the head.
No so.
You should be able to hit a bouncing softball to hit the bruin in the beaner.
I wanna see the big bore handgun dudes do that with even a 15% hit ratio.
It would be hard enough to do with a shotgun or rifle.
FORGET buckshot. Poor penetrator at best.
The stuff was made for use against humans and other thin skinned targets.
Were I to go back into bear country again I would have a back up but would greatly perfer it to be someone with an 870 I could outrun! :-D :-D

Qaz · « **Reply #146 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:21:38 AM »

A smart man speaks the truth and I agree! The way my luck runs the bear will pass the person with the shot gun and catch me!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #147 on:** April 05, 2006, 03:46:01 AM »

If your counting on pepper spray hopefully i wont have to clean up the mess afterward. Back in my younger days when a swam with the squids we were in a "little" tuffle with some marines in a club on guantanamo in cuba and the mps gassed us with real mace and boys the fight hardly slowed only effect is less punches were landing where they were aimed. Now my guess is a grizzly is just going to slap you a couple extra times for making his eyes water if you use pepper spray. Bottom line is that if something like a big bear is comming for you no gun is going to save your bacon. If you have time to get a shot off it will be one and your probably going to miss anyway and the best chance you have is the bear will be repulsed by the crap in your underware and only take a couple bites before he realizes you taste like crap anyway and arent enough threat to him to bother with.

jeager106 · « **Reply #148 on:** April 05, 2006, 08:50:13 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale

If your counting on pepper spray hopefully i wont have to clean up the mess afterward. Back in my younger days when a swam with the squids we were in a "little" tuffle with some marines in a club on guantanamo in cuba and the mps gassed us with real mace and boys the fight hardly slowed only effect is less punches were landing where they were aimed. Now my guess is a grizzly is just going to slap you a couple extra times for making his eyes water if you use pepper spray. Bottom line is that if something like a big bear is comming for you no gun is going to save your bacon. If you have time to get a shot off it will be one and your probably going to miss anyway and the best chance you have is the bear will be repulsed by the (censored word) in your underware and only take a couple bites before he realizes you taste like crap anyway and arent enough threat to him to bother with.

Lloyd:
Do you ever make sense!
You are spot on the money.
I've never been eaten by a griz or eaten a griz for that matter but I've read about every "bear/cougar eats John Doe" story that we are all so fascinated with.
Most every story, in which the hunter lived to tell the tale, all said the bear was on them before they could fire an effective shot.
Every one!
Notice some did fire a shot and with a rifle too boot.
Those that put a fatal shot (few) got half eaten before said bear realized it was dead.
Having a big bore six gun strapped on to your side will only make you feel better.
Make no mistake and I've said it before, if I were in dangerous territory and carrying a hand cannon were legal I might carry one too.
Understand though that even a .500 magnum handgun is a poor substitute for a proper rifle in your hands.
If you get the big chomp it won't matter much what is in your hand, your reaction time will be way to slow to stop the attack without a lucky brain shot.
Now if a .500 gee-whiz bruin buster makes you feel better then o.k. there is much to be said about feeling better.
Just understand the reality.
Lloyd: I remarked that the .500 magnums no more effective a round than the .44 magnum.
I stand by that statement.
Now you big bore guys don't get your shorts twisted. The .500 is absolutley more powerful but not more effective.
For you average shot at normal handgun distances the .500, .460,. 44. mag, .45 Colt (hot) are all equally effective.
I'm not knocking the ultra big boys, only stating that power and effect power are different animals.
The extra power of the .460 and .500 and others of that ilk are not anymore usefull than the existing handgun hunting tools we've had for years.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #149 on:** April 05, 2006, 11:36:28 PM »

dont know about that if i could only get one shot on an animal id want the biggest heaviest bullet i could to wack him. Now if your good enough to brain shoot them a 44 will do anything a 50 will. But i guess i figure a 400 grain 475 or something simular has a better chance of penetrating stem to stern on an animal then a 300 grain 44. And if you miss the brain or spine your going to want to do all the dammage you can to at least discourge the animal. Again like ive stated before this whole argument about bear stoppers is rediculus. Theres maybe one or two guys here that acutally hunt where they are and Im not one of them and out of those guys the chances that one of them will be charged is about astronomical. I guess it would make alot more sense to post on what is capable of hunting them which is another set of circumstances all together and in that case id be much more comfortable with my .475 or 500s then a 44. Not that a 44 wouldnt do it. Its been proven many times that it can but then a 38 special will kill a deer deader then hell too but i wont take one hunting myself