358 Win...........Useful or Useless ?

[killdeer]

Well, I have a couple 30 06's, a 270, and a 300 rum.Having played with the 300 lately I,m thinking,  why not slow it down and make a little bigger hole? It seems to me the 358 Win might be just what Im looking for. Wonder why it doesnt seem to be popular? For most of my needs, 200 yd capability is about  75 yds extra. Now some of you might be thinking 35 Rem but I'm suffering a bad case of magnumitis and cold turkey might not be advisable.                                                                                Any thoughts pro or con? Primarily whitetail in hardwoods.[/url]

[Slamfire]

You bet it is useful, but it ain't popular as most folks find the recoil to be too much for accurate shootin'. Snap shootin' in dense woods means shootin' off'n yore hind legs, and that allows you body to flex and absorb the recoil. Sightin' one in from the bench can be a chore though, get one of the slip on Kick-Eze recoil pads for that!

[Con]

Nothing anyone can tell you compares to having one built and shooting it. My first reaction to shooting my M70 in 358Win ... "where have you been hiding". Mate tried it and is ready to sell his Whelen for a Browning BLR in 358Win. There is a very good reason you dont see many going second-hand. As for recoil, my 30/06 recoils harder in a heavier rifle. The "average" hunters shooting over typical ranges (to 250m) are missing out on a great cartridge ... shhh ... dont tell them!
Cheers...
Con

[victorcharlie]

For most of my needs, 200 yd capability is about  75 yds extra. Now some of you might be thinking 35 Rem but I'm suffering a bad case of magnumitis and cold turkey might not be advisable.                                                                                Any thoughts pro or con? Primarily whitetail in hardwoods.[/url]

 Why not a .35 remington?  I started the season hunting the East Tennessee hardwoods and pine thickets with a 1895 marlin 45.70 but after missing a quick shot a close range on a deer that was wounded by another hunter and running fast.....I've switched to the 35 remington........the Marlin 1895 is super accurate, but even with the 1.75 x 6 leupold set as low as it would  go I couldn't find the animal as it ran for it's life...........just a couple of seconds to finish the job........

Yea, I had a case of Magnumitsus in my younger years.....darn thing liked to ruined my shooting........beat the devil out of me......left me bruised and flinching after extended range sessions......just wasn't fun to shoot after a few rounds..............

Where I hunt, I really like the fast handling marlin in .35 remington and a ghost ring set-up........45.70 is great but is a bigger, heavier rifle and not quite as fast in my hands........I'm going to take the scope off it after the season and go with a ghost ring on it.........I'd take a good .358 any day, but don't think you'll find one in a light, fast handling rifle like the 336........BLR or BAR's are fine rifles, but not as fast handling in my hands.....

[longwinters]

I would love to find an older one in a lever action.  My buddy got a lever in 356 and is it sweet.  I wondered about recoil in his light lever but no such thing.   I have my local gun store keeping an eye out for one.

Long

[JoeBru]

Why not a 35 Whelan or better still a 9.3 x 62?  
You can load them down to 358 levels or ramp them up if you ever need the extra punch.

[killdeer]

Thanks guys. All your points are valid. I like the idea of  a ghost ring set up. Maybe its just me but it seems like when using a scope my ability to just point and naturally be on target or very close is diminished. On a moving target I cant keep the target centered so without a good picture I have to pass. I am looking for a .358 but bolt guns seem rare and expensive and Iv'e never owned a lever. The whelan and .35 rem certainly are good alternatives and a 760 carbine might be about perfect.

[victorcharlie]

Seems the guys who have 760's or 7600's love them.......from what I hear, there quick and super accurate........

[Lawdog]

Well, I have a couple 30 06's, a 270, and a 300 rum.Having played with the 300 lately I,m thinking,  why not slow it down and make a little bigger hole? It seems to me the 358 Win might be just what Im looking for. Wonder why it doesnt seem to be popular? For most of my needs, 200 yd capability is about  75 yds extra. Now some of you might be thinking 35 Rem but I'm suffering a bad case of magnumitis and cold turkey might not be advisable.                                                                                Any thoughts pro or con? Primarily whitetail in hardwoods.[/url]

While I like the .358 caliber I just never had the itch for a .358 Winchester.  Got my .35 Whelen in the works and a .350 Remington Magnum that I need to get more aquatinted with that is taking up my time.  The only other .358 calibers I am interested in is the .358 Norma and the .358-416 Rigby wildcat.  Lawdog
 

[Harry Snippe]

Well I have a 358 W in the new BLR.
It does not kick anymore than the 308 in my view. Browning recoil pad on the new lightweight is perfect , and I do not notice the 358W any more in the bush than my wife's 30/30.

Winchester brought out the 358 round the same time as the 243  on the parent 308 case. The 243 was accepted as it is a fast shootin" round, while the 358  traveled under the 2500 FPS, at a time we were being sold on the virtues of the 300 Mag something .
The 35 Calipier never was accepted  in America so sales in 358 W have not been the best.

Winchester droped the 250 gr. load and we are stuck with the the winchester 200 gr. only factory load.
If Federal ever brought out a barnes load , it would be perfect for the non reloader.
Price for the loaded winchester is not cheap.
"That " in itself kills the sale for a new hunter.


Now for reloaders the calipier is a gem to load for . you can plink with lead or hand gun bullets.
Load180/ 250 gr.s  for hunting .

Just don't tell the moose or big black bears About the 358W and it's killing range.

You will not find too many "used" rifles as folk that hunt with the round tend to keep them. Yeah !! And the price as usual , not far from a new one.

Happy

[Lone Star]

The .358 failed for the same reason the .35 Whelen failed - the general shooting public is not interested in a .35-caliBer cartridge.  The .35 Remington is an exception, but it took the introduction of the .35 to the wildly popular Marlin lever action to secure its longevity - it was moribund in the M81 and M141.  The big .35s have had no such help, and they just hang on.

In reality the .358 is as good as the Whelen for 95% of uses.  The velocities with the same bullets are generally within 0 to 100 fps of each other, not enough difference to notice anywhere.  If I were hunting Kodiak brownies again I'd rather have the Whelen just for piece of mind, but for everything else the .358 does as well.

[PaulS]

The 358 Win. is a great, versitile round in the hands of the reloader. I wanted a bolt action 35 and couldn't see the Remington as a decent choice for me. I talked to my smith, explaining my sensitivity to recoil and we came to the conclusion that I needed a 358 Win. We built it so that I could shoot 158 grain pistol bullets and 180 grain rifle bullets - to keep the recoil similar to my '06 with 165 grain bullets. After fire-forming some new brass I worked up a load for the 158 grain Sierra hp pistol bullets that shoot sub-caliber groups at 100 yards at 2507 fps. This is a pleasant load to shoot and fun to show off the targets. It wouldn't be a good hunting load unless you limited the shot placement to the head and neck areas of thin skinned game so I worked up a load for the Speer and Hornady 180 grain bullets and found that I could get 5/8 inch groups from the Speer and slightly larger groups with the Hornady(3/4inch) both at 100 yards at 2700 fps. It was surprising to me that the pistol bullets gave the smallest groups but the hunting loads fit nicely into the other rifles that I hunt with with the sub-MOA groups. The Speer bullets expand nicely without falling apart completely and so I am happy with my unpopular 35.

[longwalker]

In my opinion if you think you want one just do it. You will love it. I have a 25-06 and a 338-06. The 338-06 I built to hunt bigger game like elk and moose.( Not that I have done either.) The result is I really like hunting with the 338-06. It makes a big hole passes through resulting in easily trailed game. ( not that I have needed to )  There is very little "lost Meat" but, I must qualify with the fact that I am a meat hunter and pay particular attention as to where the bullet will enter and where it will exit.

Go bigger and you won't be sorry. I will make a silly statement but it has proven true in my experience. Find someone hunting with larger caliber bullets and you will most likely find a very good hunter.

longwalker

[Ahab]

I've got the .358 in a Win. Model 88 lever action that I bought new many years ago. Used it for Wisconsin white tail. It replaced a 30-30 I was not fond of and did a much better job of bringing home the meat. You won't go wrong if you can find one.

[358Win]

As you can probably tell from my login name I think the 358 Winchester is the greatest invention ever made.  Versatility is the name of the game.  I can shoot 125 grain pistol bullets from subsonic with H4227 up to 3,200 fps with full charges of H380 or AA2520.  The 140 JHP pistol bullets are fine for all kinds of varmints and I'm able to get 3,100 fps with those.  For general fun and/or deer hunting the 200 grain Hornady is hard to beat.  I'm able to get 2,600 with those.  For an Elk or Moose load either the 250 grain Hornady or Nosler can get up to just shy of 2,400 with AA2520 and this is in the 20 inch barrel of my BLR.  If I ever go to Alaska again and think about a bear hunt the 310 grain Woodleigh can be driven at 2,100 and penetration with this bullet is awesome.

While brass can sometimes be hard to find the datum line for the 308 and the 358 is identical.  I have fire-formed about 400 cases just by shooting 308's in the 358 chamber.  They blow out perfectly.  When doing this the 150 grain 308's that normally go just below 2,700 float out of the 358 barrel at 1250 according to my Oehler 35P.  The 308 brass generally has to be loaded a couple of grains lighter than real 358 brass.  I mostly use the real 358 brass for the 200, 250 and 310 grain loads.  The fire-formed 308 brass I save for use with the pistol bullets.

[victorcharlie]

Wow.....I knew I wanted a .358 but didn't realize how versatile it really is.....how's the accuracy with the lighter bullets?  Isn't the bullet size smaller with the pistol bullets?  You really make a fellow think about things.......I'm likeing it better and better the more I think about it.......

[358Win]

My 358 Win. BLR is the Lightning version.  At 6 1/2 pounds and 40 inches overall length it is one of the easiest carrying and quickest handling lever actions I've ever owned.  My other Lever actions are a Win Model 94 Trapper with the 16 inch barrel  in 44 Mag, and a Marlin 45/70 with the 22 inch barrel.
 
   The pistol bullets are very accurate.  While the jacketed ones do mic out at 0.357 versus 0.358 for the rifle bullets and all the cast handgun bullets I use.  The one-thousandth of an inch difference really doesn't amount to much.  They do shoot about 1/2 larger groups at 100 yards.  But I really don't get over-worried about the difference between 1 1/4 inch groups and 1 3/4 inch groups.  I have heard that those shooting 9mm pistol bullets which are 0.355 do notice a bit more accuracy loss.  But for plinking tin cans or skeets at 75 yards or so even the 9mm pistol bullets are plenty accurate for that use.
 
   The comments about 308 BLR's kicking hard makes me wonder if they aren't talking about the old straight grip model.  With all but the very heaviest 250 grain loads my Lightning version BLR in 358 Win has less perceived recoil than my Ruger #1 in 270 which weighs 8 1/2 pounds with the scope.  The new curved pistol grip Lighting version has one of the best recoil pads I've ever felt.
 
   The 35 Rem is a wonderful cartridge but isn't very close to the 358 Win in ballistics.  The best the 35 Rem can do is about 2000 fps with a 220 grain flat point with a B.C. of about 0.267.  The muzzle energy is 1954 ft-lbs.  Sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards would be down 4 inches at 200 yards and 25 inches down at 300 yards.
 
   The 358 Win BLR uses a box magazine allowing spitzer bullets to be used.  The 250 grain Nosler has a B.C. of 0.446 and can be driven at 2,400 fps.  This generates 3,197 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.  When sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards, this is still up 0.3 inches at 200 yards, and only 10.3 inches low at 300 yards.
 
   The perfection of the 358 Win really stands out when we do the same comparison for the ballistic twins the 35 Whelen and 350 Rem Mag.  The 358 Win will get its 2,400 fps with 48.0 grains of AA2520. while the 35 Whelen/350 Rem Mag burn 56.5 grains of AA2520 to get 2,500 fps.  So the extra 8.5 grains of powder with its attendant recoil and muzzle blast brings the muzzle energy up to 3,469 ft-lbs.  Sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards, the bullet is up 0.9 inches at 200 yards and down 8.5 inches at 300 yards.
 
   Thus the 358 Win has 63.6% more muzzle energy than the 35 Rem and drops 15 inches less at 300 yards.
 
   Also the 358 Win has -7.8% less muzzle energy than the 35 Whelen/350 Rem Mag and only 1.8 inches more drop at 300 yards.  And it does all of that while using -15.0% less powder.

[Con]

358Win,
What load did you use for the 310gr in the 358Win? Mate and I are hoping to test the Woodleigh out of my 358Win and 350RemMag and his Whelen shortly.
I also agree regarding the 358Win and its supposed recoil. Factory 200gr are very very easy on the shoulder and 37.5gr AR2207 behind a 250gr Woodleigh I thought would kick some ... absolute angel load. I'll chronograph that 250gr load next time as I'm intrigued by what speed its doing.
A Rem 158gr pistol projectile infront of some Blue Dot powder was super mild and would take a rabbit cleanly to 100m ... great plinking load.
Very very under-rated are the .35s! If money wasn't an issue I'd have a 358Norma and a 303-35 on a No4 action in the safe to join the 358Win and new 350RM!
Cheers...
Con

[358Win]

Hi Con:
   The load used with the 310 grain is 43.0 grains of AA2520 loaded to an overall length of 2.760 inches.  That was the maximum length that worked flawlessly through the BLR action.  Note that this is a slightly compressed charge and should be worked up to very carefully.  Watching for all the signs of pressure.  While primer flattening and/or cratering are fair indicators.  The pressure detection method I like the best is to measure the case head just in front of the extractor groove.  The real 358 Win brass I have measures at 0.465 inches with my vernier calipers.  Of course with different lots of brass and your calipers or micrometer you may get a slightly different measurement.  So long as the elastic limit of the case head is not exceeded so that the case head measurement doesn't change and everything else is ok, I consider the load safe.  If the case head expands at all, even to 0.466, I cut back 5% on the powder charge and call that maximum.  That method was good enough for P.O. Ackley and Vernon Speer, so I figure it ought to be good enough for me.

   I've used Blue Dot, XMP5744, and H4227 in charge ranges from 10.0 to 20.0 grains behind several different pistol bullets.  I've used 125 grain JSP, 140 grain JHP, 158 grain JSP, and 160 grain cast.  I don't much care for the XMP5744, but Blue Dot and H4227 are both wonderful.  10 grains of H4227 behind the 160 grain cast is just barely sub-sonic and an absolute joy for plinking at cans, targets, distant rocks etc.

   Hornady makes a 180 grain that is designed for use in single shot pistols.  So it opens up at fairly low speeds.  This slug launched at anywhere between 1,800 fps and 2,000 fps makes an absolutely fantastic varmint round out to even 150 yards.

   I love this cartridge so much that I might even buy an extra BLR just in case they quit chambering for the 358 Win again.  I'm even thinking about getting a left-handed Winchester Featherweight Classic with the controlled feed and having it rebarrelled to 358 Win.  I'm thinking I'd cut the barrel back to about 19 inches so that the overall length of the rifle comes in at 39 inches or 1 meter even.  The BLR has a 20 inch tube and gives 35 Whelen's with 22 inch barrels a good run.  The 358 Win in a 20 inch tube is only 7 to 10% behind in energy what the Whelen will do in a 22 inch tube.

   The bottom line is that the 358 Win is so close in performance that no game animal would be able to tell the difference and it does it all with shorter brass, less powder, shorter barrels, less recoil and less muzzle blast.

   I have to figure that the marketing people at Winchester in 1955 really dropped the ball.  This should be one of the most popular calibers on earth instead of languishing as a reloaders only cartridge.

[Con]

Thanks 358Win,
That powder, AA2520 doesn't make it across the Pacific, any 310gr loads with the Hodgdon or Winchester powders? H4227 is known as AR2205 over here, use a bit in the 375H&H for reduced loads with 220gr projectiles. Might try that load with the cast projectile as a plinking load around the farm.
What caught my interest about the 358Win is that it's one of the most popular reamers for my gunsmith. Not many people say much about owning a 358Win, as its a very understated round, but just try finding a second-hand one! As I mentioned earlier on this thread, nothing anyone can say prepares you for this round. Its amazingly mild, recoils less than my 30/06, and is relatively soft on the ears. I sighted the factory 200gr SilverTip around 3" high at 100m and it was near spot on at 200m. That I suddenly realised, effectively covers alot of my hunting. Maybe Winchester goofed by introducing it at the beginnings of the magnum craze? If Winchester or Ruger ever do a limited run on a 20" Mannlicher in 358Win, I'd definately be living contently in the dog house with the Brittanys!! That would be my ideal rifle, as would a Ruger stainless/synthetic in 358Win. Only shame now is that its cheaper to buy a 35Whelen or 350RemMag in a factory rifle then it is to build a 358Win.
Cheers...
Con

[Ramrod]

I have always thought of the .358 Win as an excellent deer or elk woods round. The optimum rifle for me would be a fast handling semi like the Remington 7400. But that is not likely to happen in this age of high velocity fad calibers in cheap bolt action rifles. 200- 250 grain bullets are  what the .35's are all about. If you really want to shoot pistol bullets, why not just get a pistol?

[killdeer]

WoW, I'm sold!   Now to just find a bolt rifle thats reasonable or maybe rebarrel a model 7 laminate stainless.  Have to ask gunnut when I get closer.   Thanks guys. :-)

[Harry Snippe]

There was some talk about rebarreling a Remington Pump or auto to 358W.

It would not take much to bore out a 308 since everything else is the same.

My concern would you need a small base die?

The hard part is to find a rifle cheap enough to do it.

[358Win]

Hi Harry:

   Any 308 rifle can be made into a 358 Win by rebarreling and chambering.  In 99% of the cases that is the only work needed.  Occasionally a tiny bit of work is needed on the magazine and/or feed rails.  But that should be it.  My current dream rifle is a left-handed M70 Winchester Featherweight in the Classic Controlled Feed version.  But my BLR in 358 Win is less than a year old so it will be spring or summer by the time I get enough saved for this project.

Hi Ramrod:

   The only pistol bullets I use in my 358 Win are the same ones I use in my Taurus Tracker 357 Mag. revlover.  It's nice to be able to use the same bullets in both guns.  Varmint / Target shooting in the off season makes me at least a better shooter with my BLR when the hunting season comes along in the fall.  Not to mention those loads are just plain old fun.


Hi Con:

   That is a real drag that you can't get Accurate Arms powders down under.  I've use a lot of H380, mostly because I have about 15 pounds of it.  But the case gets full when you're still well under SAAMI specs.  I've not ever used Winchester powders.  Don't have anything against them just never got around to trying them.  In the Hodgen line H335 and BL-C(2) also work very well in the 358 Win.

   Your comments about what a wonderful cartridge this is are right on.  I had been thinking about getting another Marlin Lever Action.  For a while I had my heart set on a 41 Magnum.  Then I had just about talked my self into a 45 Long Colt.  Then I found out that Browning was chambering in 358 Win again.  Like I said earlier I had a whole bunch of H380, and as chance would have it a friend who had retired from Military Match shooting asked me if I knew anyone that could use several hundred rounds of Lake City Match 308s and a few boxes of 308 factory ammo.  Note that I had had that ammo just taking up space for several years.  Then I found and article by "Paco" Kelly who claimed he just made most of his 358 cases by fire-forming 308s.  I did a check on the SAAMI spec for headspace and found that the datum liine was the same diamerter and a the same length.  So I thought about it and decieded I had to have the BLR 358.

   At every single turn this has worked out better than expected!  The fire-forming worked great.  The recoil and muzzle blast are much less than expected.  I was surprised that full loads with the 200, 225, and 250 grain bullets exceed the KE - Kinetic Energy of the 30-06.  Much more power than my 270 Win at less percieved recoil, less noise, less muzzle blast.  Note that the 358 Win BLR wieghts 6 1/2 pounds with the current peep sights, while the Ruger #1 270 with scope weights 8 1/2..

   The only down side is that now that I truly understand the long range potential of the 358 Win.,  I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to put a scope on it.  Something I've never done with a lever-action rifle until now.

HI All:

   Any recommendations for a long eye relief scope?  What I'd like to do is put on a rail mount and set this up so the back of the scope is just forward of the hammer.  Would need about 6 to 8 inches of eye relief for this.

[RaySendero]

Well, If the 358 win. is soooo dead - Why is Federal introducing the 338 Fed. in 2006?

Its just a 308 necked up to .338.  I believe it was tried earlier (70s maybe).  Seems the two cartridges will be very similar.  Think I'll give a nod to the 338 Fed.  With a short action it should be a great carry rifle and a real Hog-Thumper!  Hope rifles will have a twist that will stabilize a 250 gr. RN.

[Slamfire]

The .338-08 was dubbed a useful wildcat by Ken Waters. With the lighter bullets it had a suprisingly high velocity. Data is in the "Pet Loads" book.  

[Con]

Ray,
The 338Federal (338-308) will make a great little package. Its only short coming will be that unlike the 358Win, it wont have relatively cheap projectiles to shoot at paper. In a Sako it wont be a cheap rifle but hopefully it'll be placed in the Tikka line-up as well... wouldn't it be awesome though if they anounced a limited run of Sako Finnwolfs in this cartridge... :eek:  These mild medium bores come and go and none have ever really stuck whether of US, German or English origin. Its a real shame.
Cheers...
Con

[358Win]

The 338 Federal.  Well it just might shine a bit of the spot light over in the right direction.  But it will be one of those things where the 358 Win can do everything just a little bit better.  Too bad somebody can't talk Winchester into a major media blitz along with 4 or 5 more factory loads.  As for me the 338 Federal will be a nice source of brass for the 358 Win.

Have a Great Day, All

[Harry Snippe]

The 338 Federal.  Well it just might shine a bit of the spot light over in the right direction.  But it will be one of those things where the 358 Win can do everything just a little bit better.  Too bad somebody can't talk Winchester into a major media blitz along with 4 or 5 more factory loads.  As for me the 338 Federal will be a nice source of brass for the 358 Win.

Have a Great Day, All

Yeah !   I like federal brass too.
Hornady is making 308 brass also , and was thinking of getting some to size up.

The new 338/ 308  might have an advantage over the 358W , but then would the 8MM or .323/308 ( whoops might wanta call it the 325/08) make more sense now that we have a better selection of bullets in that calipier.
The 308 case necked up or down has it benifits.

Before I put my money down on the 358 W I did a bit of research.
Then just south of us is mixed bush and farms. The bush tends to be heavy, and the farm fields present 200 yard plus shots.
The game deer moose and black bears.
The bears run from the average two hunderd pounds up to the 500 LB class.
Bear hunting requires a good heavy bullet to drop the animal in the last light. So you need something that leaves a big hole and a pass through leaving a good blood trail. The 358 Does it All !

So why are there no used rifles on the racks . Folks that have them, tend to keep them.

I have been loading with H4198 having the powder on hand and getting good results with speer 220 Gr bullets .
I was thinking of going with the speer 250 and maybe even trying the Grandslam.
What powders would someone recommend or would you know what speer would load for these rounds?

The 358W will not die . Just the animals in front of her.
Happy

[358Win]

Hi Harry:

   As for powders in the 358 Win, the best I've tried is Accurate Arms 2520.  I've used a lot of H380 becasue I had a whole bunch of it.  H335, BL2(C) are also good.  If shooting for groups then H322 is the one.