358 Win...........Useful or Useless ?

[Savage .250]

Love to have one, .358 that is. First choice would be in a Savage 99
   but i` don`t hold out much hope for that so a BLR in .358 would be my second choice.
   Not sure when i`d use it hunting as i have other rifles that meet my needs so i guess it would go under the heading of " don`t really need one
  but would be nice to have".
   The .358 has the muscle to finish the job, now there`s peace of mind!
 
 " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[larryrlc]

Sent off two rem. mod. 7's for rebarreling. Got them back last week. One is a .250 sav. and the other one is a .358 win. They are now scoped and ready to go to the range.   larry

[coyote trapper1929]

The .444 Marlin using the new LeverEvolution ammo has a better trajectory at 200 yards and more energy at 200 yards than the .358 Winchester.

[Harry Snippe]

The .444 Marlin using the new LeverEvolution ammo has a better trajectory at 200 yards and more energy at 200 yards than the .358 Winchester.

The 358 with the 200 factory bullet sighted in 2.5 inch's @ 100 yards still has 1563 Fts of energy @200 yards,and is only down 1.6" at that range

Best look at the hornady figures again .Are you using a 24 inch barrel to my 2o"

Personly I never liked sighting in a rock thrower at 3" high @ 100 and have it quickly fall past 150 yards after that as I found with a 45/70.

Well If one could could propel a 265 gr. bullet sized just under .430 have it hit with over 1500 Ls of engery, with the recoil still under the 3006. Have it still under 2.5 inches and  above and below bore @ 200 yards----
I would want one in a Marlin.
Should it have the recoil of a 3 !/2 " slug gun I still do it.
By the way the New incoming 24 inch stainless rifles look great if you have yet to see it.

The 358 W hurts only on the hot end of the barrel. Compared to the Marlin guide I had it sure shoots a lot flatter ,and also could enjoy 200 rounds at the bench during a day of shootin" :wink:

[rich56]

LoneStar stated that the 358 and the 35 Whelen are both failures(marketing). I have to disagree. I think the Whelen is a more successfull round, It has more popular rifles chambered for it, (Remington 700 and 7600) and has more factory rounds, 200, 225 and 250 grains, The higher velocity gives the Whelen slightly more range. That said my choice would be a 358 in a light carbine.

[Con]

I also don't see the 35Whelen as having failed. Remember in 1987, there was quite a back-log for these rifles. Its "failure" was that Remington commercialised it. If it had of been Winchester it would have appeared in the Win M70 and Brownings all at once, giving people a choice of rifles from budget to up-market models. Remington rarely does that.
Cheers...
Con

[BlackWolf]

so..... for a BLR .358 win would you use the open sights or put a scope on it?  I'm guessing it would be a low power scope.... but which kind would you use?  I like the looks of the gun and the caliber, I wish factory ammo was more readily available but as far as ballistics go - how often does the average hunter shoot past 200 yards?   (I'll give you a hit - not very often )

[257 roberts]

I've hunted with a 358 win off and on for twenty years and its a smokin round( Sav 99F, Sav 99A and a custom Mauser )
No more recoil than a 3oo6.

[Country Boy]

For anyone to get my 2 .358's I would have to die first. The most pratical game round ever ! If it is so dead why does Browning keep making them. I have an BLR81 and a Model 88 win. rebored from .308. Every beastie I've shot has been DOA. I use hot loads but they show no problems in my rifles. I've killed over 20 blackbears, 2 moose,2 elk and god knows how many deer with mine. A better hog rifle has never been made. If you keep your shots around 250 yds and in fact most game is shot much closer, you will never run into trouble.   A friend took his blr .358 to africa and killed all sorts of game with it including some big beasties !  Go to sixgunner.com and read Paco Kellys articles about the .358 if that doesnt convince you nothing will !

[killdeer]

BlackWolf,
It's tough to beat a Luepie FXIII 6x42. It is an excellent lowlight scope and perfectly suited for shots near or far and would look great on that BLR.



KD

[Don Fischer]

Saw a 1-4x Leiupold the other day. I like low power scopes on some rifles. The 358 would be one. Gather's lot's of light and still plenty of power for shooting farther than we ought to.

[Golsovia]

My Model Seven 358 has accounted for 3 moose, a brown bear, several caribou and many other smaller edibles.

I shoot bullets ranging in weight from 200 grains (very, very accurate) up to 310. Barnes X were my favorites since they were so lethal and very accurate. I haven't bought any since they changed (what was already working so well for me.) IMR 4895 seems to be a really ideal propellent in the midranges, giving very good accuracy and consistency. I use as much RL 15 as I can cram in the case with the heavies: 280 Swift and 310 Woodleigh. AA2223 and AA2520 have also been useful though their varying sources have made them unreliable in consistency.

[358Win]

Hi All:

   The 358 Win is the absolute best cartridge of all time.  It shoots amazingly flat.  A 250 grain Nosler at 2,400 fps compared to a 7mm Mag shooting a 150 grain at 3,200 fps.  When both rifles are zeroed for 200 yards the difference in drop at 300 yards is only 5 inches.  At 300 yards the 7mm Mag is down 6 inches and the 358 Win is down 11 inches.  That is only the width of my palm difference.  For all practical purposes they are trajectory twins out to 250 yards.  Which covers 99% of all the game I've ever shot and seen shot.

   The 358 Win generates about the same energy numbers as a 30-06 and punches a bigger hole right off the bat.  Plus it penetrates better.  And it does all that with about the same recoil as my 270 and my 270 weighs almost 2 pounds more.

   I just put a Nikon Monarch Gold 1.5 to 6 X scope on the 358 Win which should cut the recoil down even more.  This scope has a 30mm tube with a 42mm Objective lens and the Field of View at 100 yards is 65 feet at low power.  This scope is fairly short and the balance point with the scope is just in front of the trigger guard.  This scope also has the reticle in the 2nd focal plane so that the eye relief is constant at 4 inches as you change power.  Best sight picture I've ever seen in a rifle scope.

   So the 358 Win in a BLR with a 20 inch barrel with an awesome scope is the best all around hunting rifle in existence.  It's light, its's short, it's extremely fast on follow up shots, almost as fast as a semi-auto, it's powerful, it's got great trajectory, it's got fairly light recoil, it's easy on the ears and the eyes, low muzzle blast and low muzzle flash.  It's extremely flexible.  Varmints from Ground Hogs to Coyotes can be taken with 140 to 180 grain pistol bullets.  Game hunting rifle bullets come in 180 grain, 200 grain, 225 grain, 250 grain, 280 grain and 310 grain.  It just doesn't get any better than this.

   While factory ammo is hard to come by, I've never had any trouble finding brass.  Also cases can be made from 308 brass with just a normal sizing die.  I use Lee Pacesetter dies and they work great.  Also the headspace is the same for the 308 and the 358.  I've fire-formed about 400 cases by just shooting 308's in the 358 Win chaamber.  They come out beautifully.

[killdeer]

That's a sweet rig 358. You done good. Where/what are you hunting this year?

[Demonical]

Hi All:

   The 358 Win is the absolute best cartridge of all time.  It shoots amazingly flat.  A 250 grain Nosler at 2,400 fps compared to a 7mm Mag shooting a 150 grain at 3,200 fps.  When both rifles are zeroed for 200 yards the difference in drop at 300 yards is only 5 inches.  At 300 yards the 7mm Mag is down 6 inches and the 358 Win is down 11 inches.  That is only the width of my palm difference.  For all practical purposes they are trajectory twins out to 250 yards.  Which covers 99% of all the game I've ever shot and seen shot.

       So the 358 Win in a BLR with a 20 inch barrel with an awesome scope is the best all around hunting rifle in existence.  It's light, its's short, it's extremely fast on follow up shots, almost as fast as a semi-auto, it's powerful, it's got great trajectory, it's got fairly light recoil, it's easy on the ears and the eyes, low muzzle blast and low muzzle flash.  It's extremely flexible.  Varmints from Ground Hogs to Coyotes can be taken with 140 to 180 grain pistol bullets.  Game hunting rifle bullets come in 180 grain, 200 grain, 225 grain, 250 grain, 280 grain and 310 grain.  It just doesn't get any better than this.
   

It is your favorite cartridge. To call it "the best ever" is nothing but one man's opinion.

358Win I enjoyed your comments on the cartridge and your reloading results, FWIW the #48 Lyman manual lists 2283 fps MV as max with the 250gr bullets. But it certainly sounds like you know what you are doing by mic'ing your cases for pressure and the BLR is certainly a strong action.

For anyone to get my 2 .358's I would have to die first. The most pratical game round ever ! If it is so dead why does Browning keep making them. I have an BLR81 and a Model 88 win. rebored from .308. Every beastie I've shot has been DOA. I use hot loads but they show no problems in my rifles. I've killed over 20 blackbears, 2 moose,2 elk and god knows how many deer with mine. A better hog rifle has never been made. If you keep your shots around 250 yds and in fact most game is shot much closer, you will never run into trouble. A friend took his blr .358 to africa and killed all sorts of game with it including some big beasties ! Go to sixgunner.com and read Paco Kellys articles about the .358 if that doesnt convince you nothing will !

Country Boy I cringe whenever someone says "I load hot" without explaining their methods (as 358Win) or reporting muzzle velocities etc...
That is a recipe for disaster but then maybe yours is in one of the strong BLR actions and you "get away with it".  :?

Can you give more detailed info on your reloads? Or is the info also"too hot"?

I have to say though I agree with the statement about most game being taken at much closer then 250 yards. I bet most is shot at 75-100 yards in fact. This fact supports the idea that we do not need to "load hot"...

[S.S.]

I don't think I could call any cartridge useless!
They are all fun to shoot! Therefore they are not useless!

[Country Boy]

When I say hot,I,m refering to the Savage 99 (had 0ne of those too) I don't use any loads that I haven,t found as max in  some reloading manual. I coronough ALL loads out of my BLR81 with a 20" bbl
 
    From hogs up to moose/ .250 Speer/ 53 grains of imr748/ vel 2370
    Load is from a Barnes manual
   
     If you are wanting a little more trajectory. .225 grn/54 grns/748 for
      2460  Also taken from Barnes manual
   
     For deer and such 200 grn hornady sp/47 grns of imr 3031 vel. 2650
     Taken from a very old Speer manual.
     
      In my 22" bbl Win. 88 vel run about 40 ft faster. I reduce loads 2 grains for the Savage. You also need a very long drop tube for the 748 loads ,still ythey come into the case neck. Makes me nervious but I have had no pressure signs or problems.

      The very best powder I ever used in the .358 was AA2015br but they don't make it any more it is now called XMR 2015 and the burning rate is not the same and velocities much lower.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Yeah when someone says they "load hot" I always wonder if that means they carefully (or perhaps carelessly) work their way above max loads.  Or does "hot" simply mean right at max?

[358Win]

The BLR in 358 Win is now also available in a stainless version.  I'm half tempted to get a second one in stainless.

While I haven't really done all the research I find it a bit difficult to believe that the 444 LeverEvolution ammo in a 24 inch barrel could keep up with the long range energy of 225 grain Barnes Triple-X launched at 2600 fps from the 20 inch barrel of my BLR.  Not to mention that the recoil of 444 is much worse.

[358Win]

Did some checking.  Hornady claims:
444 265gr 1,606 ft-lbs at 200 and 1,120 ft-lbs at 300

JMB Ballistic Calculator for 225 Barnes Triple Shock X at 2,600
gives 2,364 ft-lbs at 200 and 1,957 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

[358Win]

Here is some more data on this topic:
444 Marlin 265grain LeveRevolution
Velocity / Energy              +/- Line of sight (inches)
2325 / 3180   Muzzle               -1.7
1971 / 2285   100 Yards         +3.0  
1652 / 1606   200 Yards          -1.4
1380 / 1120   300 Yards        -18.6
   
358 Winchester 225grain Barnes TripleShock X dropping the MV down to 2,500 just to be really fair.  2,600 would be a very warm load.
358 Winchester 225grain Barnes TripleShock X
Velocity / Energy                +/- Line of sight (inches)
2500 / 3122   Muzzle                 -1.7
2287 / 2614   100 Yards           +2.5
2085 / 2172   200 Yards             0.0
1894 / 1791   300 Yards          -10.5

As can be seen the only real similarity is the muzzle energy.  In every
other way the 358 Winchester is the hands down winner.   At 300 Yards the 358 carries 60% more energy and has a drop advantage of 7.1 inches.  As can be seen the 225 grain 358 Winchester trajectory is very similar to a 180 grain 30-06 trajectory.

On top of all the ballistic advantages, the Marlin rifle is bigger and heavier the Marlin 444 XLR is 42.5 inches in length and weighs 7.5 pounds.  The Browning BLR in 358 Winchester is 40 inches in length and weighs 6.5 pounds.  What makes this even worse is that the 444 burns about 7 or 8 grains more powder to get equal muzzle energy.  And it kicks quite a bit harder and even has more muzzle blast than the extremely efficient 358 Winchester.

I know from previous range sessions that about 10 or 12 rounds out of a 444 is about all the fun my shoulder wants before it is time to switch to a lighter rifle or a pistol.  But I have no trouble shooting 30 to 40 rounds out of a 358 before recoil becomes an issue.

[358Win]

Looding Manual Notes:

The 1992 Edition of the Hodgen Manual list the following loads for 250 grain bullets in the 358 Winchester:
48.0 grains of BL-C(2) give a MV of 2374 fps at 52,200 CUP

The current Accurate Arms Manual shows 2390 fps with 48.0 grains of AA2520 at 49,700 CUP.

The SAAMI spec for the 358 Winchester is 52,000 CUP.

My Ohler 35P gave me a 5-shot average of 2397 for the 250 gain Hornady Spitzer.  That is close enough to 2,400 fps, for me, especially since the front screen was about 8 to 10 feet from the muzzle.  This is for the 48.0 grains of AA2520 load.  Note that OAL was 2.760 inches.

[Country Boy]

.358, what was the bbl length for the loads your coronographed ?

[358Win]

Hi Country Boy:

   My rifle is a off the self BLR with a 20" tube.

[358Win]

One last note to any reading this thread.  When I first got my BLR I fired 30 bullets with Bore Lapping Compound on them.  In the past I've noticed a fairly good jump in velocity and accuracy from doing this.

When I did this on my 270 Win Ruger #1 the following results were obtained:
1) I cronographed 130 grain Federal factory ammo and got an average velocity of just under 3,100 fps.
2) then I cut the barrel down from 26 inches to 21 inches to make the rifle a bit more portable.
3) After the cut I cronographed the same ammo and got a velocity average of just over 3,000 fps.
4) Then I shot 10 shots using a cast bullet weighing 130 grains with a reduced load that started out at just over 1,000 fps and worked up to a maximum of 1,800 fps.  Each of the bullets had been hand rubbed with Bore Lapping Compound with particular attention to pressing as much Compound into the bullet lube as possible.
5) Then I shot 5 rounds of 130 grain jacketed bullets with Bore Lapping Compound rubbed all over them.  The starting velocity was approx. 2,000 fps and each subsequent shot was 200 fps faster so that I ended up at 2,800 fps.
6) Then I repeated step 5 with 150 grain bullets for the longer bearing surface.
7) After this I again cronographed the same Federal factory ammo used in steps 1 and 3.  After lapping I got a velocity of 3,050 fps.

So lapping the barrel gained back half of the velocity lost by cutting the barrel back, in the 270 Winchester experiment.

I later did a similar experiment with a Taurus 357 Magnum revolver.  This was a Stainless Steel model.  In this experiment lapping the barrel gained 80 fps with 125 grain bullets in a 4 inch barrel.

When I got my BLR I did a similar lapping process.  The main difference being that I didn't do any cronographing until after the barrel was lapped.  I started with 160 grain cast bullets and then after 10 of those, I did 5 jacketed 180 grain bullets, 5 jacketed 200 grain bullets, 5 jacketed 225 grain bullets and ended with 5 jacketed 250 grain bullets.

After the lapping process above I fire-formed approximately 100 308 Lake City Match cartridges.  The headspace is identical for the 308 and the 358 Winchester.  I'm amazed at how the 308's blow out to a perfect 358 case.

Then I started cronographing the 250 grain bullets working my way up to 48.0 grains of Accurate Arms 2520.  That is the load that averaged 2397 fps in the 20 inch barrel of my BLR.

[Country Boy]

Really appreciate your insightful information. My favorite powder for the .358 was AA 2015br but it is no longer made. Barnes lists 53 grns of 748 which gives me 2370 out of my blr. But. it scares me a little as the powder comes half way up the case neck. However I've had no trouble with it. I never lapped the bore but I've used this rifle for Black bear every year since 1985. Mostly used the .250 grn speer and only recovered one bullet. I also used the .250 Hornady on a few bears and recovered one bullet. It appears the .250 speer is a little tougher in comparing the two. But. I've shot over 30 bears and all have dropped on the shot. So no complaints here.
  As to the AA 2520 does it fill the case up into the neck ?
  Sure appreciate the information.

[358Win]

Thanks Country Boy, that info on your Bear Hunting experiences was great.  I've only had my BLR in 358 Winchester for 9 months and while I've spent a lot of time developing loads, lapping the barrel, and shooting at targets for drop and ballistic data, I haven't actually taken any big game with it yet.  So hear peoples actual hunting experiences with it are wonderful.  Out here in Utah it's mostly Mule Deer, Elk, and Pronghorn.

The 48 grain load of Accurate Arms 2520 is compressed and comes up into the neck of the case just a bit.  But when you seat the 250 Hornady to an overall length of 2.740 inches you can hear the powder crunching a bit.  Note that I have recently started seating for the above length.  I had been using a COAL of 2.760.  But have found that feeding and getting them into the magazine is quite a bit easier at the new length than the original length I had been using.  Note that the pressure is still OK at the deeper seating depth.

[Country Boy]

I used to be concerned about cola but eventually found that the clip realy  determines the col if it feeds from the clip it's ok. Many of my friends also use the .358 in the field. One took his to africa, used the Nosler bullet and killed all kinds of plains. I know another in Arizona who uses his for coues deer. I have a guide friend in SK that has taken every thing the provence offers with a .358 and I have also taken 2 elk and a moose with mine as well as a few deer. If you want to know more read Paco Kelly's articles on the .358 at www.sixgunner.com  Good Hunting.

[358Win]

Hi Country Boy:

   I love hearing about all those hunting experiences.  It was very much the ease of loading the magazine that prompted me to cut my OAL back to 2.740.  While I can surely use the longer length it takes a bit longer to load the magazine.

   Paco Kelly has several great articles on www.leverguns.com.  Of course the fact that he spells his last name the same way I do doesn't hurt.  His articles on the 358 Winchester are what first go me looking at the BLR.  Before that I had been thinking of getting either a 41 Magnum or a 45 Colt Marlin as just a plinking or camp rifle for protection from Black Bears or Cougars.  Both of which have been having a population explosion here in Utah for the last 15 years or so.

   While I was doing research on that idea I came across leverguns.com.  Once Paco really had me thinking about the 358 Winchester.  A cartridge that I really hadn't thought of.  Then I did some searches on the 358 Winchester and found Patrick Smith's series of articles on "The Ultimate Rambling Rifle" and reading those I was sold on the 358 Winchester.

   It didn't take me long to find a BLR in that caliber.  Cabela's in Lehi Utah had two of them.  So I looked at them both and picked the one with the nicer wood.  Since then it has been a wild love affair with the cartridge and the rifle.

   A while back I pulled the iron sights and put on a Nikon Gold Monarch 1.5 to 6x scope with 30mm body and 42mm objective lens.  What an awesome scope.  But now I have a couple of screws in the holes that held the front sight.  I'm extemely tempted to cut the barrel down to 18 inches to remove those screws and the marking on the barrel where the front sight was sitting.

   Since I will be carrying this rifle on several wilderness area backpacking / fly-fishing trips I think every ounce I can save and every bit of length I can get rid of would be good for portability in that situation.  I'm sort of thinking that with the expansion ratio of the 358 cartridge that I probably won't loose much in the way of velocity.  I'm hoping 50 fps or less in velocity loss going from 20" down to 18".  What is your opinion?  Do you think that estimate is pretty close?  Or do you think it will be more?  Or maybe even less??  Any thoughts or commentary on shortening the barrel would be appreciated, thanks.

Mark Kelly aka 358Win

[Country Boy]

Keep the 20 " bbl and use a lighter scope and rings. I use a Leaupold 2x7 with #4 crosshair. I get 2350 in my blr with .250 grn speer and everything i've shot has been doa and that includes Moose,elk and a lot of bears, you just can't believe it when a 500lb bear hits the ground so hard it alsmost bounces when shot with a .358