Author Topic: Comparitve photo of handgun cartridges (Read 1382 times)

JJHACK · « **on:** March 06, 2003, 01:10:14 PM »

Here is a collection of shells I have recently recieved or had on hand. As can be seen by these from size alone it's obvious which should and should not be considered "big game" capable. they are as follows from right to left:
9mm-38sp-357mag-44sp-44/40-45ACP- Not good for big game with any bullet I have seen used in them.
10mm-41mag these are the shells that make the minimum and can be very good with proper bullets
44mag-45LC-454-480-50AE-500 linebaugh. These work with about anything you load and I consider them the working handguns for hunters.

The guns .454 and above are a handful and not considered realistic for the average "joe" but for the experienced handgunner with high recoil tolerance they rock!

Thanks to all of you who helped me with this. Sometime after the article is published I will repost this photo and the text.

ssmith_1187 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2003, 06:18:55 AM »

JJHACK,

What do you consider "Big Game"?

Thanks,
Steve

JJHACK · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2003, 07:51:54 AM »

I guess what ever the law says it is in your state. In our state the big game regs start at Mt. lion and deer in size and go up from there.

On my consession in South Africa we hunt Antelopes much smaller then deer so I suppose there Big game could be kinda small.

I'm basing this on several hundred bears I have seen shot with these calibers/cartridges. Most of them were factory loads because the majority were Police using side arms for their hunting trip with me. As I understand the liability laws they must use factory ammo. That may not be true but I'm only repeating what I have heard from some of them.

Certainly pumping up a standard load could change the rules but for the most part having seen several hundred bears killed with handguns this is what I have experienced. I think there is enough resolution to make this factual with factory ammo and in many cases with handloaded ammo. Of course distance plays a big roll in this as well. After seeing as many bears killed as I have with handguns, and having personally skinned and examined everyone of them, I think a bullet of 200 grains or more, .40 caliber or bigger and with an impact (not muzzle) velocity of 1000 fps should work fine for most species of big game within 50 yards. I want to clarify that this is for hunting not protection/backup/ or self defence. Those types of guns are at the higher end of the scale.

Bigger is fine but smaller is a very high risk on most big game species even at closer range. I suppose somebody has killed a deer with a gun that does not fit this rating system and thats fine. It's just not gonna be consistant. When that same fellow shoots 100 or more deer, bears, hogs, etc. We can talk about the resolution of his experiment. For now I have to believe what I'm writing here because it's based on what I saw and experienced first hand, and in person 100's of times.

I'm not sharing this to be confrontational or argumentitive. I have laid out on the table my first hand experience. If folks choose to believe otherwise that's fine with me. This however is my take on the subject. The article will be published later this spring in the magazine. Some time later summer I'll post it here too.

ssmith_1187 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2003, 08:14:21 AM »

JJHACK,

Excellent points. Keep in mind that here in Illinois the only "Big Game" we have are whitetail deer, though the geese can get pretty big sometimes. :wink:

However, with that said, I would say the .357 is an effective caliber to hunt whitetail deer with. Is it at the bottom end of the spectrum? Yes it is. But with say a 180 grain CastCore from Federal, it can be a very effective firearm for hunting.

Just tired of being discriminated against. :wink:

Steve

Jeff Vicars · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2003, 09:18:57 AM »

" I think a bullet of 200 grains or more, .40 caliber or bigger and with an impact (not muzzle) velocity of 1000 fps should work fine for most species of big game within 50 yards."

If it has a impact velocity of 1000 fps or more why would you have to be within 50 yards?

JJHACK · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2003, 10:58:41 AM »

I guess that's my bais towards accuracy issues of an open sighted carry gun. Not many people will make consistant perfect shots under hunting conditions beyond fifty yards with open sights. With a scoped revolver I guess ranges could be much longer. On the otherhand bullets out of handguns shed velocity PDQ. Most of these guns will have a MV in the low teens and at 50 yards they are still gonna be 1000 or more. At more then 50 yards how many starting at 12-1400 will still be 1000 or more?

The .44 mag and above will be and maybe the 41 mag. But that also fits right into the figures as well right?

Something else happens to guys when hunting that is bizzare. Having the bulk of these guys hunting with me come from a Law enforcement background they are all trained and experienced with firearms. Yet the poor shooting would surprise anyone who was there. I would think a guy who has been to the range as often and killed a million targets in his life would have good shot placement on a human sized target.

NOPE! soooo many of the folks were pathetic shots when the angles were steep, the heartrate was pumping, or the taget was moving. Surprise surprise shooting at a living target is quite humbling to many of the qualified trained professionals. So how would a regular old citizen compare on average who shoots far less then a cop? Usually worse! Big bore handguns have this romantic notion that give guys a rush to own. Yet when put under the pressure to use them they are a horrible failure much of the time. Heck I can't explain it, I'm just telling you that when a guy misses a target completely the size of a bear at 40 yards I gotta wonder how he was granted permission to carry a gun in public to protect us!

It's not just here and there but countless times. Do you know how many times I have backed up guys like this and when we skinned the bears there was only one hole and it was from a .44 magnum not the .45ACP or 357 magnum? We only recovered one bullet and it was from my gun or my partners gun.

I suppose when I said under 50 yards it is due to the problems with open sighted carry guns used beyond 50 yards. The huge majority of guys who hunted with us were not capable of good shot placement over 50 yards. Most were not good beyond 35 yards. I remember clearly one afternoon near the Dvorshack resevior we set out a soda can to hit with the hunters 454. Up til this point he was just raving about the incredible accuracy and power of his Gun. I paced out 50 yards and set the can down. He said what is that a joke? That's 100 yards away! I said I just paced it off to 50. He grumbled and missed the can 3 for three. He moved up about half the distance and hit it, .............. on the 5th shot! Why is it that when you're all alone you can make spectacular consistant shots but in a group or on a hunt your shooting skills vanish? I wish I knew so I could calm my hunters down and our hunting stress would vanish. That 454 is a wonderful, magnificent hunting cartridge. But most guys cannot shoot it well enough to justify owning it in my opinion.

Paul H · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2003, 12:43:57 PM »

Jim,

I think you overestimate the amount of training and hence firearm capabilities of the average police officer. Most of them aren't good shots, and don't practice near enough. That likely holds true for the average hunter as well, wheter equiped with a rifle or a handgun. Handguns require much more practice to be proficient with then a rifle.

I do agree with you that an iron sighted handgun is best applied inside 50 yds. With a solid rest a competent shot can certainly stretch that to 70-80 yds, yet offhand, most folks should keep shots inside 25 yds.

I think my buddy dennis sent you the 480 dummy I gave him. I also think the average shooter can shoot a 480 as well as a 44 mag, as the recoil with the factory ammo is on par with the 44. The 480 can also be loaded up to be a much more potent round then the 44.

JJHACK · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2003, 01:46:04 PM »

Yes that 480 in the picture is yours! thank you both for the help. I have shot a 480 only twice and it was impressive. the loads were hot though not factory issue!

I would likely choose the 454 or the 480 for the best all around revolver I have personal experience with. The .44 mag is still the king for me because I have so much experience with it, components are so common, recoil is nothing to worry about, and accuracy is as good as it gets. Plus the size and weight of the gun is much smaller.

If I were to get a bigger bore it would probably be the 454 or 480.

HHI 812 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2003, 01:46:20 PM »

Yes Paul, thats the one you gave me. By the way Jim, you know when your write up will be out? Went to the book store, and for the first time, saw that bear magazine! Nice! Let me know when your article is out, and I'll definitely pick up a copy! Your 1000fps, 200 grain, and .40 caliber minimum sounds similar to the same results that Nonte and Jurras came up with in their handgun hunting book. I just got a SRHK 454, and definitely will need a lot of practice with it, for that hunting accuracy that is needed. Thanks again for your reply on my questions. Want to really hunt with the handgun, and hope I can do it with this 454 SRHK. Dennis

helobill · « **Reply #9 on:** March 14, 2003, 05:56:15 PM »

Okay, so I guess you kept this to "factory" rounds widely available. I switched to the .30 Bellm to overcome both the Illinois restrictions of 1.4" and the range restrictions of most handgun rounds. It kicks less than a 44 mag and at 2250 fps with a 130gr bullet has the same energy at 200 yards that the 44 has out of the muzzle. And it looks cool too! 300 whisper falls into that category as do most of the JDJ's too. Or were you trying to keep this to a caliber available in a wheel gun discussion? If so, forget I said anything.

Helicopter Bill