.30-30 Ackley Improved in a Handi

[jason280]

I have decided my next Handi will be a semi-custom job.  It will begin life as a 22" .30-30, but I'm going to have the barrel cut down to 18" and rechamber it to .30-30 Ackley Improved.  Anyone use the AI in a rifle, and what velocities are you getting with 125-150gr bullets? Also, who can I get to ream the chamber for me?  Thanks!

[Mac11700]

Jason....I'm curious...if your going to chop off the 30-30 barrel to 18"..why go  to the trouble of making a AI out of it?...Why not just get a 308 barrel and do the same thing?..Trying to drive the velocities up in the 18" 30-30..will give about the same muzzle blast and recoil of a 308 loaded to the same...dies are cheaper...and no fireforming is needed..4" of barrel length isn't that big of a bother...

Mac

[jason280]

Jason....I'm curious...if your going to chop off the 30-30 barrel to 18"..why go to the trouble of making a AI out of it?...Why not just get a 308 barrel and do the same thing?..Trying to drive the velocities up in the 18" 30-30..will give about the same muzzle blast and recoil of a 308 loaded to the same...dies are cheaper...and no fireforming is needed..4" of barrel length isn't that big of a bother...

Well, I would like to make as compact a rifle as possible, while keeping muzzle blast to a minimum.  I may even go as far as cutting the barrel down to 16.5", and the .30-30 AI is very effecient in shorter barrels.  I'm not after that much velocity, around 2600-2700fps w/ 130gr bullets.  The .308 will do that nicely, but with a lot more recoil and blast. I've shot 16" .308's and they aren't fun.  Matter of fact, I've shot an HK-G3 select fire on full-auto with a 9" barrel that was down right nasty.  On the other hand, a 16-18" .30-30 won't be that bad, especially considering you are using less than 38gr of powder.  I just got rid of a 16" Trapper in .30-30, and it was a joy to shoot.  

I've always loved the .30-30, so the evolution to the AI is only natural.  Dies aren't any more expensive, as I can get an AI 2-die set from Lee for less than $25.  Brass is also very cheap, and I can always shoot factory .30-30 loads in the gun if I need to.   Plus, you don't see many AI Handi's out there!

[quickdtoo]

I highly recommend Wayne York of Oregunsmithing, he does excellent work, but he's tied up moving right now and it would probably be 6 months or so before finishing the work for ya. Wouldn't hurt to email him for his schedule, though.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eoregunsmithing/index.html

[Mac11700]

I'm not after that much velocity, around 2600-2700fps w/ 130gr bullets.

You won't get it with that short a barrel in a Handi....even if you can get the AI to work in it...Even though some here have said they have done this and that they work...and some have even claimed these majical velocities with them..I sincerly doubt it...I've reloaded them in the past on several lever guns..and what you really gain out of them in the shorter tubes is basiclly bringing them up to what the 30-30 has been advertised to get in the first place...and most who make the giant velocity claims are in all likelyhood running the pressures up way over what they should be doing..I have reloaded a-lot with the 125 & 130 grain bullets for the 30-30 in a Handi..and you can drive them right at what your attempting to do with the 22" barrels...and I've had the ammo tested and found it is running way over the SAMMI pressures to get  those velocities..adding 6 more grains of powder isn't going to get you 2600-2700 fps with a shorter 18" barrel...and certainly not with the 16.5" barrel...and the only thing your going to get is increased muzzle blast..The 30-30 AI works better with a longer barrel...not a shorter one...so it can utilize the extra lenght to burn powder...and it really shines with a 26" tube...been there...done that...I wish you luck with this venture...and wish you well on getting the action closed on a extra .004" length...provided who ever does this for you can cut it correctly...and if it is already closing tight on a .002" feeler gauge as what has been recommended here..But I highly recommend making a chamber cast of your exsiting 30-30's chamber before attempting this..this way you'll atleast know what the dimensions are before starting and whoever cuts it will know too...

Mac

[jason280]

6 months??  Ouch! :-D

I have someone to cut/recrown the barrel, I just need to find a reamer!  My plan is to fit a full length mannlicher style stock, which I will make myself.  I haven't decided on whether I will use an end cap or not. I hope to have it finished within a couple months, but I have to at least find a .30-30 Handi first.  

Off to the pawn shops I go!!

[jason280]

Mac,

I've found several web sites with .30-30AI data out of 14" Contender barrels, and they've had little trouble reaching 25-2600+ fps with 125gr bullets and 2400+ with 130gr stuff.  I know how misleading some data can be, but I believe their numbers are pretty close.  I've also seen standard .30-30 cases push 125gr bullets out to 2500fps safey in 20" barrels, with no signs of overpressure.  

I don't think 2600+ is overly optimistic out of a 17-18" barrel with the AI and 125-130gr bullets, but I could be wrong.  As far as pressure is concerned, you are only limited by what the brass can handle (to an extent).  The Handi will easily handle loads that a Win 94 won't, but the limiting factor will be the brass insead of the rifle.  

I guess it will be a learning experience for me!! :-)

and wish you well on getting the action closed on a extra .004" length...provided who ever does this for you can cut it correctly...and if it is already closing tight on a .002" feeler gauge as what has been recommended here

This is one of my main concerns, but I don't think it will be too much of a problem (as long as the original chamber is at least close to spec). Where is the extra .004" coming from, though?

[mitchell]

to et what you want i would cut a 308 down to 16 inches or shorter(depending on law) and just add a can. should help a lot with muzzle blast and the velocity you want should be in reach (i've not looked at data).

[jason280]

A 16" .308 with a can accomplishes ZERO for me.  First, you're looking at an additional $6-800 for the can and tax stamp (not to mention threading the barrel and waiting for the paperwork).  Second, I won't be able to use the gun hunting as suppressors are illegal for deer.  Third, I really don't want another .308 Handi.

[Chainsaw]

Jason, I'm already getting 2600-2700 fps out of a standard handi in 30-30 Win. This is with a 130 grain X bullet and a healthy dose of W748, and a magnum primer in a WW case that weighs around 130 grains.

Maybe you wouldn't need the AI. If I went to an AI personally, I'd like more velocity than what you mentioned. Course with the shorter barrel, one would lose velocity so that maybe that's where the AI comes into play...........Good Luck, Chainsaw

[jason280]

Thanks for the info, Chainsaw!

[Fred M]

Here is what Quick loads says.

130gr Barnes-x and a full case of Win 748 to the underside of the bullet for a 100% filling ratio and the bullet seated 1/4" into the neck.

A compressed load could up the velocity in both cases if you want to up the pressure to 60kpsi. Notice that I did not provide powder weight since this is not loading data and should not be used as such.


Standard 30-30
16" barrel 2390 ft 50798psi
22" barrel 2558 ft    "   "

30-30 AI
16" barrel  2495ft   54695 psi
22" barrel  2671ft      "  "

[WashPa]

Try David White  at Edited  He rechambered my Hornet to K Hornet last August and I'm quite satisfied with the job.  I had the barrel back in 10 days and his charges seem pretty fair.

Jeff

[quickdtoo]

Washpa, that individual is banned from this site...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=46321&highlight=david+white

[WashPa]

Oops!

[Mac11700]

Here is what Quick loads says.

130gr Barnes-x and a full case of Win 748 to the underside of the bullet for a 100% filling ratio and the bullet seated 1/4" into the neck.

A compressed load could up the velocity in both cases if you want to up the pressure to 60kpsi. Notice that I did not provide powder weight since this is not loading data and should not be used as such.


Standard 30-30
16" barrel 2390 ft 50798psi
22" barrel 2558 ft    "   "

30-30 AI
16" barrel  2495ft   54695 psi
22" barrel  2671ft      "  "

Fred :agree:

This is 1 time I will tip my hat to your program..the figures I got back from a friend who works for Olin..was a tad higher..it was a shade over 55,000 psi......not something I would recomend anyone doing..but hey..I not trying to convince the man not to do it...afterall...it's a learning experience ehh..... :wink: and there is a chance it could work out for him...provided everything came together perfectly...if it doesn't...then he will just have to fireform his brass prior to loading..and ofb course have a set of dies cut to mate with his chamber...otherwise he may have a bit of a case head seperation issue come up..

If I just wanted a small increase over a standard 30-30...and I didn't want a 308...there is one cartridge that will work and it even has a rim.....and that would be a 30-40 Krag..here's how they would look....







Yes...I do know they make a Improved 30-40 Krag...but that would really put you back up to the 308's blast to deal with...I'm just not a fan of AI''ing any cartridge in a Handi..not with the differences they have produced with the chambers...but it's your nickle..and your rifle..

Good Luck..

Mac

[tom barthel]

I am very happy with my Ackley Improved.  It's a straight rechamber of a standard 22" barrel.  I wanted a little more power in a RIMMED case.  I have other 30s.  Now, I have something different.  Go for it.
 
Take care and God bless.
 
Tom

[jason280]

Mac, I see you are not a fan of AI cartridges, but I really don't understand why.  Furthermore, I don't really see where the issues will come up you are discussing.  As long as the chamber is in spec, reaming it to AI should not present any problems. As long as the smith is competent in the reaming job, the chamber should come out very well.  The fact its a rimmed cartridge only makes the prospect that much easier.

Also, all the brass I will load for the gun will be fireformed for the chamber, and neck sized only after that.  I won't reload the brass more than 3-4x, and I don't see where case head separation will be a problem, and I'm not going to to push the envelope with loads.  I am simply going to work up loads as any sane reloader would, and watch for pressure signs.  Once I reach that level, I am going to stop.  If my velocities are less than I expect, so be it.  Will I trash the gun?  No.  I will use it anyway.  However, I have a good feeling that I can realistically reach my goal in an 18" barrel, or at least close to it.  This will give me very good performance out of a very compact package, and will be fun to shoot (while using less powder than a .308).  

Another thing, lets look at PSI limits for both the cartridge and gun.  We know that the .30-30 round is limited to around 38-40k CUP.  This was mainly due to the fact that the Win 94 action would not handle much more than that.  Now, look at the Handi rifle.  It will handle CUP levels of 52-53k, and PSI levels around 60k.  We know this to be true as the SAAMI standards for the .308 reaches these level.   However, this level is rather unattainable as .30-30 brass is relatively weak, so the brass becomes the limiting factor.  Can you achieve a 2600fps load under 45k in an 18" barrel in the AI?  I think so.  But, as I have said, it will be a learning experience.  But, there is always the option of using .375 Winchester brass, which is considerably stronger.  I have used this brass in 7-30 Waters loads, and it worked well.  There is little reason to think it wouldn't work in the .30-30 AI.  Does it make the process longer?  Absolutely, but its a labor of love.  Some people like to tinker, and I am definitely one of those folks!

[Mac11700]

there is always the option of using .375 Winchester brass,

This is an entirely different scenario than using standard 30-30 brass..and moves it into a completely different realm..

Why don't I like a AI in a Handi...simple..the lock up on them is relatively weak as compared to a bolt action...and you don't have the camming power of a lever gun to have a good crush fit in the chamber for shooting factory ammo...you have to slam the action closed to do what you need to do to shoot factory ammo in it(provided the chamber is cut correctly and the headspace is done correctly)..and if you already have a tight lock up as mine..it makes it even more difficult to get the action closed.Sure..the 30-30 headspaces on the rim...and if your going to full lenght size everytime..it may work...but then again it may not..A simple known fact my friend...bottle neck cartridges give better accuracy when headspacing on the shoulder not on the rim..and this is where the majority of people have a misunderstanding about the AI cartridges on a rimmed case..sure..I can headspace on a rim..but why in the world would I want to do this in a Handi...I'm not shooting this ammo in another gun...and I doubt you will be doing 2 of them at the same time..But...I'm not you...and you can reload it any way you choose...

Handi's chambers are cut the loose side of the specs..these aren't match chambers..this is why I said to do a chamber cast first.. so your smith will tell you if it will work or not .When rechambering our Handis for bottleneck cartridges..you will be better served to have the chamber cut to clean up any and all illregularities...doing a straight walled case like the 44mag to the 445 Supermag is rather simple..but you still have to deal with the original chamber dimensions...just as those who have done this...and are getting +.006"-+.010" case head swelling at the base...and this isn't the ideal situation to have...read up on it and you will see..

The whole concept of what Parker did was to actually get the advertised velocities from a 22" barrel in a 30-30...and still be able to use factory ammo in a pinch at a greatly reduced velocity...and ther-in should be a flag for you when reading about him...at a greatly reduced velocity..which means he was using a larger increase in powder..and since your going to be cutting the barrel back even more..your not going to get the velocities with out running the pressures way up over normal loadings for the 30-30...yes..going to the other brass will eliminate this..and yes..the SB-2 action can take the pressure...but if your pushing the 308 pressure levels..your going to get the 308's muzzle blast..and shorter barrels give more muzzle blast than longer ones..

There is absolutly nothing wrong with wanting a short barrel Handi..but I can't honestly see any gain in it velocity wise..with out a major increase in muzzle blast...and I can't see going to all the trouble of AI'ing your  Handi to get it....and most of the velocities I've seen posted for them aren't realistic to begin with....and to try to duplicate them in a short barrel and then expect it to not have as much muzzle blast when using more powder....is even more unrealistic..

Like I said...I've reloaded for the 30-30 AI before...on several different rifles..and I have chronied the velocities from a 18" to a 26" barrel..and you best gain will come from a 26" tube...as with any cartridge where your increasing the powder charge....the shorter the tube..the more muzzle blast you will get..

Can you achieve a 2600fps load under 45k in an 18" barrel in the AI? I think so. But, as I have said, it will be a learning experience

Honestly..out of a 18" barrel...no...you won't be able to get this under 45K...and the muzzle blast will be there my friend...2400-2500 fps is more realistic..not 2600fps...and certainly not 2700fps...you can figure on roughly 50fps loss per inch of barrel...


It's your time..your money..and your rifle..do with it as you will...I still wish you luck ...and hope it turns out better than I expect it too..

Mac

[Fred M]

Mac
I always maintained that the 30-30AI is a good Handi AI. But in the Handi it has some short comings chamber wise, it may not clean up well.

The notion of neck sizing only is not possible in the Handi due to action stretch, unless you really underload it, No point in that. With headspacing on the shoulder cases should last 8-10 reloads with minimal full sizing.

The issue of weak 30-30 brass is another illusion. The 30-30 brass is often reworked to make the 30 Aardvark(46.0gr of H2O) for Hunter Benchrest and is used with pressures well in excess of 60kpsi. This of course is a no-no for the Handi. But brass weakness is not an issue here,

Why a 30-40 Krag which has a greater capacity than the 308 Win. So you are not getting less blast. God grief a Handi with a 16" barrel in AI well like you said is your money even so it is absurd unless you shoot it in a pistol in which you would be further ahead with a 30BR.

If you want a rimmed case and a good clean up in the 30-30 chamber the 307 is the best choice by far with enough room to stuff it with slow powder for reduced blast.

Volumes.

30--40 Krag =58.0 gr H2O
308 Win = 56.0 gr
307 Win = 54.0gr
30-30 AI= 47.5
30-30    = 44. 0

[quickdtoo]

[Fred M]

Yes Tim you end up with a longer chamber neck but a nice chamber.

The same happenes with the AI it too is shorter than the origional. But you may end up with a sloppy chamber.

[quickdtoo]

Fred, I have no dog in this fight, just providing resources for Jason. :wink:

[jason280]

even so it is absurd unless you shoot it in a pistol in which you would be further ahead with a 30BR.

Absurd?  I would hardly call the concept "absurd".  And how would the gun being a pistol make any difference?  

Furthermore, what will a .30 BR accomplish here?  There is no way to rechamber a Handi without reboring, and that certainly isn't an option.  

The major variable in this equation is the chamber of the gun, and how close to spec it is (without being too oversize).  I also think it is more than possible to set the .30-30 AI up to headspace on the shoulder, given a correct ream job in a spec chamber.  As far as a crush fit, that can also be accomplished.  Once again, this is reliant on a proper ream job.  

.30-40 Krag is not an option, as it requires reaming and reworking the ejector.  The .307 presents me with the same problems as the .308, so that's not really an option either.  

but if your pushing the 308 pressure levels..your going to get the 308's muzzle blast..and shorter barrels give more muzzle blast than longer ones

I'm not going to attempt for .308 pressure levels, so this is another non issue.

[jason280]

Does anyone have a .30-30 AI that can actually chrono some loads?  All the data I have found on the AI has been in 14" Contenders, and the results have been very promising.

So, who has a .30-30 AI and is bored enough to chrono some loads for me?

[JPH45]

Jason, I"m like Tim, I got no horse in this race, what you choose to do is your business, but I more than seriously doubt you can get to 2600 fps in an 18" tube, certainly not a 16" from a 30-30 AI case. It just ain't get the powder capacity to to do the job.

Even raising pressures past 50,000 psi wont get you there. What makes velocity is gas expansion. The only way to get to more velocity with less barrel is to burn more powder. Internal ballistics is a pretty well fixed science. If it weren't, we wouldn't be reloading.

I don't have any problem with running 30-30 cases (or AI for that matter) at 50,000 psi in the Handi. If the Handi will handle the 308 at 50,000+ it will do the 30AI at the same pressures just fine. No need to use 375 Winchester brass, you'll lose capacity, and that is not the way to go for the road you want to get to. Use new cases, and toss 'em after the third loading. 30 -30 cases are cheap and easy to come by.

SAMMI is simply a set of operating guidelines for American manufactuers that allows makers to standardize thier products. Don't have a thing to do with how one can or can't use the firearm. All are going to tell you to not use reloads and to not alter the chamber.......DUH.

Quickload has a proven track record, if the numbers say you can't get there, you can't. Maybe not what you want to hear, but true none the less.

The chambering problem Mac describes (hard closing of the action) is a result of improper loading techniques. I have the same trouble with my 357 Max when long seating the 180 Lee Group buy mold bullet (an LBT copy) and the Max is a straight case. I also had the same problem with my 30-30 and Lee's Neck Size Die. After 4 trips through, the case would need to be full length sized. I have also not found Handi's chambers to be oversize.

To get the velocity you are seeking, a 308 size case is what you will need to get there. I didn't read every post line for line, exactly why do you want this? The 30-40 probably would do this, and the extractor won't need any great modification, a tad of filing and the task is done. No biggie. But you'll have the same problem you are seeking to avoid from the 308, lots of muzzle blast, lots of noise.

You can soften that by having an aluminum barrel extension made (it will have a bore larger than the rifle bore) but then you loose the shortness you want. I don't find the 22" Handi any handicap in the woods, and I don't see a barrel shorter by 4 or 6" being any advantage. At that point a handgun is what is needed.

Hope you find your solution. A short 30AI could be interesting, but it ain't no 308.

[mattparliament]

Jason~
If it's something you want to do, then do it.  Do it right and do it safe, don't let these guys discourage you from doing something that you'd enjoy.   Just do it safe.  You are getting some good info in this thread though. :grin:   From reading this it looks like the benefit of doing the 30-30 AI would be to maintain normal 30-30 velocities in your shortened barrel, not a bad deal in my mind but everybody has their own wants/needs/opinions on what is right/fun/nonsense.  Good shootin'!

[.308]

Does anyone have a .30-30 AI that can actually chrono some loads? So, who has a .30-30 AI and is bored enough to chrono some loads for me?

No, but I will soon. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Major]

OK, I might as well jump into the fracas.   I will be getting a Handi chamber reamed to the .30-30 Ackley Improved.   I am not after the increased velocity but just want to use a spitzer bullet and the little bit of improved velocity will help the spitzers perform a bit better I will wager.   I would just buy a rifle barrel for my Contender as the T/C custom shop sells them but that would cost more than another Handi… that’s the bottom line.

While I don’t know anyone that uses the .30-30AI in a rifle at this time, I know 3 gentlemen that all hunt with the cartridge in their Contenders and they all love them.   None of the 3 has ever had anything bad to say about them.   If they are all happy with a 14-inch barrel I would think a 16 and 1/2 inch would be even better.   Again, I am not talking velocity figures here, just having a very capable deer cartridge.

Jason280 let me ask you this.   How important is the velocity to you?   Is that the name of the game or do you want a short, easy handling, capable deer cartridge?   If you want a good woods gun I think the Ackley you are thinking about will make you very happy regardless of velocity.

For some faster is better, but I think those guys have read and believed to many gun rags.   After all, if velocity is the only thing that counts, why are there more deer taken with a regular .30-30 each year than any other round?   And if the regular .30-30 works so well for what it is intended how can the Ackley Improvement hurt?   Simple answer is that it can’t.   I will say this however.   Velocity does come into play if you need it to get your bullet of choice to perform properly.   But then if that is a problem you can select a different bullet... problem solved.

And as a side issue, the Ackley Improvement actually lowers reward case head pressure felt by the standing breach of the Handi so that is a good thing too.   Ackley was actually able to fire a .30-30AI in a test barrel without a breach on it and while the case did move reward there was not enough movement to get it to fall out of the chamber.

I suggest you all read P. O. Ackley’s books before you try to say how bad (or good) they are.   I have done so and I am sold on the notion Ackley knew what he was doing.        

PS: I say this as an engineer with 34 years in the field of mechanical engineering under my belt.

[.308]

Major, I'm so glad to see you back here, it's been a while. And certainly very 'handi' to have another engineer back around.