.30-30 Ackley Improved in a Handi

[bajabill]

Hey, hot rodding is fine, but call it what it is and make no excuses :grin:

But, if you want sub 308 performance with sub 308 muzzle blast, why not just download a 308

[Mac11700]

There is nothing wrong with the 30-30 AI..it can give a increase in velocity over the standard parent cartridge..No one on this thread has said otherwise..Tthe problem is what Jason is expecting out of a 18" or 16.5" barrel when it comes to velocity and the resulting increased muzzle blast..The problem with it in the Handi has been discussed several times over..the good...and the bad...and most of the bad comes into play with the original chamber dimensions of the Handi's since they already tend to be on the loose side of SAMMI specs...which is why I suggested having a chamber casting done prior to doing the conversion.Can the conversion work..I'm sure you can come up with something..but you may not end up with a exact AI dimensioned case...but....you can reload to account for most dimensions you will get..but..you still need to know what you have before you try rechambering it..and then have it cut properly to what you want...The next problem that Jason will encounter..will be the increased muzzle blast from it..Shorter barrels with max loads to get the max velocity he wants with a 16.5" barrel will be producing a great deal more muzzle blast than a 22" barrel..Sierra list their max load from the standard 30-30 with a 125 grain SPT from a 14" barrel at 2300 fps...Is getting 2600-2700fps from a 16.5" barrel... with out any increase of muzzle blast realistic..I think not... especially when Sierra themselves advise about the recoil and muzzle blast from the standard 30-30 with the 14" barrel...How is adding 5-6 grains more powder going to reduce that???...Did the laws of physics suddenly change with the advent of Parkers chamberings?..I think not...I can however see with the same reloading manuals..that the 308 can give everthing he wants even in the shorter barrel with reduced loads..using roughly the same amount of powder with the same bullets Researching further and comparing data for the criteria he's looking to achieve... looking thru the Lymans and Sierra reloading manuals..I can see where the 30-40 krag could do the same thing.... And with this conversion he can have the chamber cleaned up [/i]completely[/i] and made to his specs for however he wants to reload or what ever bullets he wishes to load...which if your going to spend your hard earned money you should at-least be able to have it done the way you want to achieve your goal... As to fitting the ejector...it would be with minimal honing on the ejector(.506" for the 30-30 & .545" for the 30-40 Krag)...this fitting would be a easy conversion..

The 30-30 AI does offer more over the parent 30-30..but converting a Handi blindly without knowing what the dimensions are of the chamber to begin with isn't the smartest thing to do..Expecting max velocity loads from a shortend barrel without any increase in muzzle blast is also unrealistic.You need to know the chamber dimensions of what you have to start with...and most Smiths will want to kinow how it shoots now ...Can you load the 125 grain bullets or the 135 grain bullets in your 30-30 now out as far as you want?..If you can't...what makes you think you'll be able to with a shorten AI case?Do they shoot good in your barrel now?..If not..what makes you think they will after the rechambering  and shortening the barrel?....A few questions need to be addressed before making any conversion worth while..and most  smiths will ask you  these things...Unless you just gotta have one done and don't care about anything else..like accuracy..and proper chamber dimensions..you need to know yourself........

 I hope that your  project you take on works great for you...with the least amount of fuss...



Mac

[Major]

All I will say is that since the .30-30AI works so very well in a 14” Contender without undo muzzle blast why then mac do you think a 16.5” to 18” barrel in a Handi will be a problem?   As for will the chamber clean up, that is something that any machinist would check before he cuts metal on any firearm, not just the Handi.   If he doesn’t then he is no machinist, so I see no reason to keep harping on that.   Whether the velocity is there remains to be seen but as I said that is up to jason to make that call as to what he will accept or not.   Velocity doesn’t seem to be a problem in the 14” Contender so I think jason will find it adequate for his short woods rifle and he is right, the .30-30 ammo and brass is cheap and plentiful.

[jason280]

No where have I stated that I am definitely going with a 16.5" barrel.  I have said that I will start with an 18" barrel, and possibly go shorter if the results are successful.  I have heard a lot of opinions on the .30-30 AI, and some of them have even come from people who have very little (if any) experience with the cartridge.

I have found too much Contender data on the .30-30 AI in 14" barrels to think that my expectations are unrealistic, especially with 125-130gr bullets.  Its all ready been established that I am not after .308 velocities, or muzzle blast.  I am also not looking to download a .308 or rechamber to .30-40 Krag.  Those accomplish nothing for me. Also, muzzle blast is a side effect of any rifle with a short barrel.  I am prepared for this, and I do not expect it to be non-existant in any chambering.  However, my intentions are to limit this as much as possible, while remaining realistic at the same time.  I am willing to trade some muzzle blast to accomplish the velocities, as long as the load remains safe.  

As far as the shorter case of the AI and being able to reach the lands, this will also be worked out.  The gun will be fully tested with .30-30 loads before reaming will even begin.  It would be downright foolish to go any other way.  If the barrel isn't up to par as a standard chamber, then no change will be made.  I won't be too worried about not reaching the lands, as I have owned several guns that shot very well with long throats.  My 7mm TCU comes to mind, as I can not even get close to the lands with 120gr bullets, and it shoots fine.  Look at Weatherby rifles and the amount of "free bore" they have.  I am not waliking in to this project blindly, and I am doing my best to cover all potential bases.  

Furthermore, while I appreciate all the comments, I would like to have them limited to those who have actually worked with the cartridge and owned guns chambered for it.  I respect everyone's opinion on this site, but I would like to limit the discussion to facts and not conjecture.

One more thing.  Regardless of how this project ends up, I will still own a very compact gun that exceeds .30-30 ballistics.  This is not a pass/fail experiment for me, but a fun project I have decided to undertake.  You know, own something few others do.  I will be happy with any results, and will have another rifle to add to the Handi stable.

[Mac11700]

Well major..I have shot a hot loaded  regular 30-30 from the 14" version from a contender and also from a 22" Topper...and to me and the folks shooting it.. the blast is significantly more than what you get in a 22" Handi...with reguilar 30-30 loads..that's why...and the velocity differences are there...once you try driving them to the velocities he's wanting to achive with more powder..it will only make matters worse...Your right..most good smiths will check the dimensions..but..just as many won't and go ahead and cut them....and you get what you pay for..

I don't have any against anyone wanting a light..short barreled Handi..but I will caution them against expecting unrealistic gains out of them...and the trade offs that will occur..like I said previously..it's his rifle..his money..and his time...and for someone who hasn't worked with this cartridge before it is a learning experiance..and again..your right...30-30 brass is plentiful and cheap...and it can make for a fine rifle if done correctly...the mention of checking the chamber dimensions is pretty straight forward and a common sense practice..since they have a real tendency to vary from 1 lot of Handi barrels to the next...and since most good smiths gennerally ask how the rifle shoots in it's original configuration prior to working on it..it's usually a good idea to know and to have the specs..so one can check the smiths work...

Mac

[.308]

and wish you well on getting the action closed on a extra .004" length...provided who ever does this for you can cut it correctly...and if it is already closing tight on a .002" feeler gauge as what has been recommended here

This is one of my main concerns, but I don't think it will be too much of a problem (as long as the original chamber is at least close to spec). Where is the extra .004" coming from, though?

Jason he may have meant to say .040" rather than .004" I'm not sure. Looking at the drawings of the two posted here on this thread the AI case is 2.000" in length and the the Win. is 2.039." However my .30-30 AI dies came today, they are Lee dies, and as most folks that own Lee dies know they come with how-to info., load data with a little drawing of the cartridge. There are two measurements on the drawing, overall length of the loaded round, and case length. Their drawing shows the case of the .30-30 AI to be 2.039" in length. I have a set of Lee .30-30 Win. dies, it's drawing shows the case to be 2.040" in length, at difference of .001" between the two.

Most of trim brass back .010" so I don't think case length will be an issue. If the drawings posted here are correct and the Lee info is incorrect what you will end up with is a .30-30 AI with a chamber that is too long in the neck rather than too short, that is if the Handi chamber is cut to it's proper length. Is that a problem, I dunno, I don't think so, cause like I said before we normally trim our cases back 0.010" anyway. If the on the other hand the Lee drawings are correct, and the difference is 0.001" then trimming should take care of that.  Later...

[Mac11700]

308:

It will alll depend on who's case dimensions your looking at and referencing from...I've found 4 totally different drawings for each cartridge...and depending on which one you use will determine a-lot.The AI's I have dealt with in the lever guns all had their barrels set back to give a +.004" crush fit to the chamber for firing factory loads..and it will entirly depend on Jasons chamber dimensions now as to which reamer to use..since they have several different sizes available to the different smiths that do these conversions.I guess that's the reason they are called wildcats...It should be a interesting project to say the least..and since he is going to be cutting the barrel back too..this will add another element to it as well...getting the velocities up with out increasing the muzzle blast a-lot...I hope it works for him...there are a-lot of folks who would like to do this in a Handi...

Mac

[naedlaen]

Looking at quickdtto's reference drawings, the 30-30 AI is 1.65 to the shoulder/neck, while the 30-30 is 1.563, a .087 difference.  So a crush fit on the shoulder/neck may be possible.

But how is the headspace on the 30-30 measured?  Isn't it on the rim?  Previous discussions seem to indicate that rimmed cartridges can be "improved" without setting the barrel back and still fire regular ammunition.  Rimless cartridges generally need to have the barrel set back so that regular ammo can be fired in the "improved" chamber.

Mac is correct in that a chamber cast is probably the best place to start.  Perhaps the next item would be to see how P.O. Ackley performed the transformation on a rimmed cartridge.  Some one with his books as reference care to offer what he says about improving rimmed cartridges?

Neal

[Mac11700]

That's the whole point Neal...there are various ways of doing it..some want to use the rim to headspace on..others like myself know how to set it up to headspace off that nice new sharp shoulder and prefere doing it that way........all depends on what your looking for and willing to do for reloading..and the problem comes from not being able to set the barrel back and still wanting to use factory ammo to fireform  the brass and to use it for hunting in a pinch....but..I don't think Jason cares one way or the other..he's just looking for improved 30-30 ballistics in a short Handi....and I'm sure he'll get some improvements on it..I don't know how much..but I'm sure there will be some if it all works out...

Mac

[Major]

naedlaen,

Yes all rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim.   That is why the rim is there.   To think a rimmed cartridge doesn’t headspace there on the rim is foolish.   Sure, any rimmed casing can be neck sized only, giving the false impression that the shell is headspacing on the shoulder but that just isn’t so.   Of course, there is nothing wrong with neck sizing only on a rimmed case unless you want to be able to use that reload in several different firearms that are chambered for the same shell.   As with any type of ammo (rimmed, rimless, belted, etc.), in any type of firearm, if you want your reloads to be able to chamber in different firearms with different tolerances then you must full length resize.   Neck sizing only will give you a better (more accurate) shell only in the one chamber that the casing was fired in before it was reloaded.




Just so you know mac, I shoot a regular .30-30 WIN. in a 10-inch Contender barrel.  It is no worse that a .44 Magnum in a revolver with a 4-inch barrel.   The muzzle blast is there to be sure but it is not unreasonable so jason should be happy with his 18-inch barrel and the AI modification.

[Fred M]

Major
We are talking Handi, most rimmed cases like the 30-30 are set up to head space on the rim with anywhere from 5-10 thou head space.

In a Handi neither neck sizing nor full sizing is very good, once the case is fired it will be tight on both ends and has taken up the the build in head space in the case minus the brass spring back, Which in a Handi is negated by the flex or stretch in the action.

Now if you neck size the case, it will not have enough clearance to chamber smoothly. In Order to get the best lock up you need two thou head space.

The only way to get that is to head space on the shoulder by carefully adjusting the die. This is the standard practice with all rimmed and rimless cases in a Handy and for any other rimmed case with a shoulder.

To think that you should be able to interchange your hand loaded ammo  to shoot in another rifle, is totally unrealistic. Hand loads are not meant to be used in any other gun then the one that the ammo is made for.

If you want to crank out full sized ammo that head spaces on the rim your brass will not last very long, in a 303 three times is about right.

The 30-30AI is very beneficial in that respect with the steep shoulder the brass will last longer than a sloping shoulder which wants to stretch forward.

In a Handi forget about the rim pay attention to the shoulder and the two thou head space. Which means each time you load the case the shoulder needs to be set back to establish the two thou head space. This will provide the best accuracy and the longest case life in any Handi chambering with hand loads.

[jason280]

It will alll depend on who's case dimensions your looking at and referencing from...I've found 4 totally different drawings for each cartridge...and depending on which one you use will determine a-lot.

So basically, no one in this thread has any idea what the correct dimensions are for the AI cartridge.  It seems to me that its pure speculation to even suggest there will be a .040" difference, especially given this info.  Anyone have a reamed gun in .30-30 AI that could actually measure a cartridge.  That way, we could have some solid information to go from.

The AI's I have dealt with in the lever guns all had their barrels set back to give a +.004" crush fit to the chamber for firing factory loads..and it will entirly depend on Jasons chamber dimensions now as to which reamer to use..since they have several different sizes available to the different smiths that do these conversions.

A "crush fit" is certainly not a big deal, nor really even an issue.  Let's look at it from a Contender stand point.  First, there is not way to set barrels back on these pistols.  How do you think they are fireforming brass?  The same way everyone else does.  But, like its been said, it truly depends on the original chamber on whether its reamed or not.  But a crush fit is not required for this set up.  If it was, no one would use the chambering in Contender pistols and rifles.  

getting the velocities up with out increasing the muzzle blast a-lot

I don't know why you are so stuck on this muzzle blast issue.  Here's the reality, there is going to be muzzle blast!!  Its an 18" barrel, and with short barrels there is always that side effect.  I think maybe you are more concerned about this than I am, as you have mentioned this quite a few times now.  Maybe you are sensitive to it, but I have hunted with Contender pistols in .35 Rem, 7-30 Waters, and .44, and muzzle blast is really not that big of a deal to me.  Matter of fact, the Waters had a brake on it, which made the blast even nastier. Not a big deal, though.  Now, if you want to see a nice muzzle blast, try a 10.5" AR with no flash hider!  That will definitely get some eyebrows!


This is not a project that requires a crush fit, or even headspacing on the shoulder.  Its a rimmed cartridge, and I have seen too many rimmed guns shoot well to think they must headspace on the rim.  Furthermore, this is a hunting gun, not a target rig.

A few people have been a little critical of this project, especially considering the lack of experience some have with the cartridge.  I don't know why this is, but it really doesn't help me when I don't know if the info is accurate.

Who here actually owns a .30-30 AI, or has reamed a gun to this cartridge?

[jason280]

Here is a very good article on the .30-30 AI in a 14" Contender.  Maybe he's lying about his results, but it certainly looks possible to maintain 2600+ in a 18" barrel...

http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t28/

[Major]

Fred, I will grant you that I do not have a lot of Handi rifle experience however I stand by my statement that reloaded ammo, when full length resized to the right spec.’s will work in any firearm with a good chamber of the same caliber.   Handloads can and are used by many people to save money.   I don’t mean hot loads here, you are right that they should be used only in the one gun they were developed for.   But I know very few people that are into speed alone and handload just for the savings or to be able to use a bullet that isn’t available from the factory.

I belonged to a shooting club for a while that reloaded their own ammo for the savings only.   We had about 30 members all shooting for fun.   We did not shoot to compete against each other.  We just shot for the fun of it.   Some would even call it plinking though that term is usually used with rimfire shooting.    We shoot about 15 different chamberings I think.   We split the costs of the reloading equipment, powder, brass and bullets just to keep the costs down as low as possible.   Buying in quantity sure is nice and cheep.   Those 30 people would shoot up roughly three hundred thousand rounds a year so you can imagine the savings.   Now granted, some of those are straight wall like the 45-70 and .44 Mag. but almost all were rimmed cases.   Plus we are talking savings on having one press, not 30 and the same with the dies and other accessories.

As I said, I shoot .30-30 WIN. in my 10-inch Contender and I get 5, sometimes 6 reloads out of it with full length resizing.  I will grant that I do not set the length completely back to the factory length but I do set it back far enough to make sure I am on the rim only.   Like you said, there should be at least 2-thousands clearance to the shoulder and that is about right for almost any rimmed cartridge and the belted ones too that I have reloaded for.   I go a bit more than that sometimes because I have am uncle that uses my .30-30 loads in his lever gun so I set it back so they will chamber in his rifle too.   Again, these are not hot loads but just duplicate factory loadings as close as we can get just for the savings.  I have had as many as 8 reloads from my .30-30 when I don’t share with my uncle, but that also depends on the brand of brass I am using.   And I never use spitzers because I do not want to take the chance that someone would not see the sharp point and load up a bunch in their tubular magazine.

On the subject of action stretch or flex, I have no experience with the Handi’s here on that point.   But I would think that the .30-30AI would shine here as the modification that P. O. made when he made this new round (and all his others) reduces back thrust on the case head and replaces it with more hoop stress in the chamber walls.   I would think that would reduce the stretch or flexing of the action, as there is far less backpressure on the standing breech.   Again, I don’t know for sure when it comes to the Handi’s but that is what my years of stress analysis seems to be telling me.

As always Fred, it is a pleasure talking with you and exchanging information.  

[Mac11700]

I wasn't going to do this..but..
 

A "crush fit" is certainly not a big deal, nor really even an issue. Let's look at it from a Contender stand point. First, there is not way to set barrels back on these pistols. How do you think they are fireforming brass? The same way everyone else does. But, like its been said, it truly depends on the original chamber on whether its reamed or not. But a crush fit is not required for this set up. If it was, no one would use the chambering in Contender pistols and rifles.

 
It is a big deal if since you said you would use standard factory loads and you will find out when you do.....and I do know how they load for contenders...I've done quite a bit of it myself for several...and since there are several people interested in this..what I have said is also for their benefit ..not just yours...this isn't a private thread my friend...
 
 
 
 
 

I don't know why you are so stuck on this muzzle blast issue. Here's the reality, there is going to be muzzle blast!! Its an 18" barrel, and with short barrels there is always that side effect. I think maybe you are more concerned about this than I am, as you have mentioned this quite a few times now.

 
I said this to 308...it wasn't directed at you..since it is a non-issue to you...
 
 
 

This is not a project that requires a crush fit, or even headspacing on the shoulder. Its a rimmed cartridge, and I have seen too many rimmed guns shoot well to think they must headspace on the rim. Furthermore, this is a hunting gun, not a target rig.

 
This will depend on how you load for it...since there are different ways of reloading..wither or not if the gun is used for bench work or in the field..you should be willing to learn to utilize different methods of reloading to make the most accurate and consistent ammo...and if you plan on using factory ammo for it.....

A few people have been a little critical of this project, especially considering the lack of experience some have with the cartridge. I don't know why this is, but it really doesn't help me when I don't know if the info is accurate.

 
Since you don't belive the info is accurate this is why you really need to talk to a good gunsmith.Maybe he can explain it to you...so that you can understand what some of us have been trying to tell you...as to doing the reloading for it...If you care to..give this gentleman a call...Bruce A. Merkur...at 1-607-753-3331..he is one of the most knowledgable guys I know who works for Redding Reloading Equipment...if you have the time...he can explain some of the reloading techniques to you,and the benefits garnered from them as to where to set up your dies to headspace from..
 
As I said before...I wish you success with your project and I hope it exceeds all your expectations...and I am sorry if what I have said caused you any grief..I won't bother posting to this thread again..unless needed or asked..
 
Mac

[.308]

Here is a very good article on the .30-30 AI in a 14" Contender.  Maybe he's lying about his results, but it certainly looks possible to maintain 2600+ in a 18" barrel...
http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t28/

Very good article. Sounds reasonable if Kyode gets 2588 fps out of a 14" tender with a 130 gr. Hornady, you could get 2600 fps out of an 18" Handi. That's only 3 fps per inch of barrel. I have 20 .30-30 win. cases loaded for fireforming, waiting on the tool to arrive.

[Fred M]

Major Larry.

Handloading means different things to different people. Myself I would not consider using brass that has been fired in another rifle. Not to mention a BR shooter. Fitted brass is my idea of handloading. With dies custom made for the chamber.

But I would think that the .30-30AI would shine here as the modification that P. O. made when he made this new round (and all his others) reduces back thrust on the case head and replaces it with more hoop stress in the chamber walls.

P. O. was WRONG. His theory was proven wrong recently by a group of ballistic experimenters with some state of the art equipment.
The write up of the experiment was featured in PS Shooting.

I have known this for along time while playing with wildcats specially when using earlier Norma brass. Think about it brass only yields 15+ ksi, starts getting plastic at 55K and flows at 70k hoopstress notwithstanding.

Flex in the Handi action is not so much in the steel but rather in the geometry of applied stress from the center of bore to the underlug lock up. This simple underlock/ box lock up has been plagued with stretching since its inception. Greener, Merkel and others improved it by adding a top cross-bolt.

[Major]

I know that you probably know this stuff but I want to try to explain it so that those that are reading here and don’t have an engineering background can understand what we are talking about.

OK, let me see if I can explain a bit better why P. O. Ackley’s modifications do work.   I said that his improvement reduces back thrust on the case head.   What I meant to say was that his improvements reduces back thrust on the breach (or bolt face) by the case head.   The case head feels the same pressure internally as it always did but with less case body taper the case walls grip the chamber walls tighter reducing the amount of rearward movement the case head can make.   Since the case head can’t move rearward as easily at the moment of highest internal pressure it does not transmit as much loading onto what ever is there to contain that movement, be that a standing breech or a bolt face.   Since the case walls grip the chamber walls better and longer they transfer more of the outward pressure stresses to the chamber walls, i.e., hoop stress.

Brass, like any and all materials has load limits just as you said.   But it also depends on the amount of material (thickness) there is to carry that load.  You know Fred; it’s the most basic analysis formula of P/A (Pressure over Area) that matters.  The thicker any material the more load it can carry, up to it’s design load limits.    An inch thick piece of brass will carry more load than a ¼-inch thick piece will, up to the point of its load limits.   All shell casings are much thicker at the case head and get thinner as you move forward up the case toward the wall.  All of the chamberings that Ackley modified all had sufficient area in the brass around the case head to resist the rearward movement momentarily at the moment of the highest internal pressures in the case.

I hope that helps explain some of the internal ballistics to those without an engineering background that make the Ackley modifications work as they do.   Now if pressures are increased very much or a chamber is not cut right there will be trouble.   But internal ballistics, mathematical stress formulas, load transference by and through the case material, material design limits and the stress analysis itself are fixed entities that do not change.   If someone thought they proved Ackley wrong they did something that altered the afore mentioned rules of math and science.   I am not familiar with “PS Shooting” or what they did in their experimenting but I am willing to bet they overlooked something in their testing.   I have yet to see anyone, anywhere that was able to break the laws of math and science without having great amounts of pure luck on their side.   I also do not know what credentials those “ballistic experimenters” had.

Anybody that has had a casing split will see that they usually split at the case mouth, or lengthwise along the thin case body where the thin wall of the brass itself could not contain and transmit the internal load pressures (hoop stress) to the chamber walls.   This thin area is also the area least able to carry any loads through the case from the internal pressure out to the chamber and the most likely to deform.   Occasionally a case will separate in a ring around the case at the point there the thick case head meets the thin case wall.   Where different thickness come together, that transition area is a stress concentration.  By the way, annealing the brass cases greatly reduces that stress concentration.    I always anneal new brass and then again after 3 or 4 firings.    And, of course the larger the chamber is cut in the barrel the farther the brass must yield (move) and stretch.   That will cause case split or materials to flow where it does not belong.   But those have nothing to do with Ackley’s modifications.

As I said before, I am not that familiar with the Handi action so I can not comment on its strengths or weaknesses.

It is good talking to you Fred.

[.308]

Boy, what start off as a simple question about 'customizing' a Handi has turned into a battle of Egos. IMHO :-D  :-D  :-D   Now go ahead and take your shots, but you better not miss cause I'm loaded for bear.
:biggun:

[quickdtoo]

I hoping for no more than spirited discussion, but no shots fired!! :wink:

[jason280]

Major's post makes a lot of sense.  Do a search on some of PO Ackley's work with the .30-30 AI cartridge.  In on instance, he completely removed the rear locking block on a Win lever rifle to prove how bolt thrust was greatly decreased.  When loaded with the AI cartridge and fired, the bolt never moved.  I think Ackley even mentioned it in one of his books, but I cannot find an exact source to cite.  

I do not doubt that there are issues with frame stretch in the Handi rifle.  The extent of this problem is simply something I cannot accurately determine. However, I have yet to encounter it as an issue in any of the five Handi's I currently load for, which include both rimmed and rimless cartridges.  I do realize, though, the necessity of sizing brass appropriately to the chamber.  This is common sense to anyone reloading. Some cartridges I reload are only neck sized, while others are full length sized each and every time.  Then again, I have a few I must play with the FL die on to set up the shoulder correctly.

I think a few people have truly gotten off track with this thread, and have totally misconstrued the original intentions I had for this project. So, let me reiterate what I am trying to do.  My goal is to build a compact rifle around the .30-30 AI cartridge, utilizing the Handi action and an 18" barrel. I am not building a gun to shoot both standard .30-30 and .30-30 AI ammo in interchangeably.  The gun is being set up as an AI chamber, and I will only use standard .30-30 to fireform with.  Sure, I could use .30-30 in a pinch, but that is not what this project is about.  

Next, I am building a hunting gun, not a benchrest rifle.  The bullets I will use are 125-130gr Noslers and Hornady's, and I hope to get 2600+ with them and 1.5" accuracy.  Brass life is not that great a concern to me, as this will not be an every day range gun.  I have over 300 pieces of .30-30 brass, and a miniumum of 3-4 uses out of each will serve me for a long time.  

I would like to thank everyone for the info they've offered, but I would like to ask that it remain in the realm of my provided guidelines.

[Fred M]

Jasen 280.
My 257 Roberts is about as tight as you can get a Handy. I handload with two thou head space. I cannot close the action on a fired case it sticks out past the barrel face about two thou.

What I am saying is each firing produces about four thou of lengthening.
Two from the head space and two or less from the stretch and cases last about 8 reloads. This is not only in the 257 but in the 25-06 and the 223 as well.

This stretch will occur in a Handi whether the cartridge is an AI or a standard and this stretch and or elongation will be at the pressure ring this is the place were a case will separate. You will see a black ring about a 1/2" from the base when the separation starts.

And the reason is only the upper part of the case clings to the chamber
the lower 1/2" of solid and thick brass does not expand and the pressure forces it to the standing breech or bolt face and the thrust against the bolt face is what the pressure is in the case times the aria of the inside diameter at the pressure ring.

In a bolt gun with an AI chamber operating with zero head space separations seldom occur because case stretching is within the elastic limits of the brass and no permanent deformation results.

PO Ackley was wrong about the lesser thrust in AI chambers. So if you want to get the max use from your brass, head space on the shoulder and keep the cartridge head no more than two thou away from the standing breech that goes for all Handis.

Since I don't have a Handi that fires low pressure loads I don't know what they do as far as case stretching goes.

I still maintain that a 30-30AI is a good one in a Handi as long as you have a good barrel.

Yes we are off your subjest and got carried away.

[bajabill]

Wooo Hooo, I get to post this topic appropriate link again   :grin:

http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

I love it when the stress analysis comes up, that way I am almost working while browsing.   Friction (what is actually "gripping" the case wall) will not keep a case in the chamber, hell, it cant keep a bullet in the barrel.  Friction will effect the "amount" of back thrust however. but not appreciably.  Friction will not limit the amount of rearward deflection of the case head because it wont reduce the amount of bolt thrust to a level below the elastic limit of the aft case cross section. It will cause more local case wall thinning because it will reduce the length of case wall that is stretching.  Since the total stretch is a fixed value, that distance must be spanned by less brass and thereby the region will be thinner.

Major, are you annealing the case head??


Fred, I am in your camp on Handi chamber stretching, I have a 243 to add to you database, but I will keep the barrel, you just take the data.

[Fred M]

bajabill.

I frequently correspond with Varmit Al, we had a discussion about the Handi lock-up. He gave me complete instructions how to do the lock up analasys. My computer skills are not up to that, nor do I have the software to do the calculation.

He did not feel like doing it, since it takes alot of time and it is not of earthe shaking news. The results of stretching are evident and sensible hand loading is required.

I know 8 to 9 uses for AI brass is not good when you consider fire forming. I my bolt guns I get 25 loads with no trouble. Others have reported even more. With a 100 new brass you can practically weare out a barrel.

[.308]

 In my bolt guns I get 25 loads with no trouble. Others have reported even more. With a 100 new brass you can practically weare out a barrel.

Hey Fred I ain't no computer or math whiz either but 25 times 100 equals, 2500. Man I hope I get more than 2500 rounds through my barrels. :cry: Now if I had me one of them .240 Incinerators that safetysheriff mentioned in another thread, I might expect a short barrel life.

[jason280]

PO Ackley was wrong about the lesser thrust in AI chambers

Where exactly are you getting this information from?  

I really don't see how this is 100% accurate.  I have done a little reading on some of Ackley's work, and it supports his data quite well.  Look at his work with the .30-30 AI that I previously mentioned.  Also, look at his work with the .22 Jet in S&W revolvers.  Bottle necked cartridges have always presented problems in revolvers.  If you will recall, the .22 Jet was as severely sloped cartridge.  Ackley did an AI conversion on a .22 Jet cartridge in a S&W 53 revolver, and eliminated the problem with cases backing out.  I don't think his work can be entirely discounted here, and claiming he was wrong seems to be quite a "stretch" (no pun intended)!

Also, 8-9 reloads with a piece of brass his more than enough for my purposes.

[JPH45]

To think that you should be able to interchange your hand loaded ammo  to shoot in another rifle, is totally unrealistic. Hand loads are not meant to be used in any other gun then the one that the ammo is made for.

Does this mean Green Box Remington should only be fired in a Green Remington and White Box Winchester should only be fired in a White Winchester??? :roll: What the heck do I shoot those darned Gold Federals and Red Hornadys in? :eek:  :-D  

[hellacatcher]

JPH45 you are going to have to quit this I was drinking a coke when I read I can't shoot all that winchester brass I got in my remington or my handies. You know what happen to the coke. I got to clean up a key board

[Fred M]

JP.
It is easy to play games with words. The Romans were masters at it in a battle of wits. Great game of the mind.

Like this, is this  your dog? yes it is. This dog has pups? yes. Then this dog is a mother? yes. Then this dog is your mother? Yes.  Are you a son of your mother? Yes. You get the idea?

In case you don't know all factory ammo is made to minimum SAMMI specs, and from what I seen Handi chambers are made max + and anywhere in between.

Besides we were talking Wildcats 30-30 AI to be precise with a custom chambers. If you read all I said above you will see were I said  that handloading means different things to different people. You can handload anyway you whish, but I hand load for accuracy, that means I taylor my loads to my chamber and try to retain the fire formed shape of the case as close as possible. What is so new about that?

Why the sarcasm?  :shock:

jason280

Read "Ackley's Mistake" Nov 04 Issue  52 page 64 in PS Shooting Inc By Gardner Johnson. It  is an easy to understand article, with pictures and apparatus. P.O Ackley did not have such equipment such as load cells.

We are talking about less back thrust in AI chambers tha in a standard one. The jet is a totally different scenario.

[jason280]

Fred,

Do you have a link to the article? I am having a difficult time finding it on the web.  

Here are some interesting things I've found on the topic:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5813&page=2&pp=15

Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" Vol. 1 1962 P.O.Ackley
Chapter 7 "Pressure" page 140
"To further illustrate this principal, and old, discarded, beat up Winchester Model 94 rifle was resurrected from the junk pile. The barrel was rechambered for the "improved" 30-30 with a 40 [degrees] shoulder and minimum body taper... [Ackley went on to get case separation with factory 30-30 ammo in a an oiled improved chamber with the barrel unscrewed 2 turns, but with a dry chamber the case formed but did not separate]"
Chapter 7 "Pressure" page 147
"To further prove the point, the locking lug was removed from the action entirely leaving the breech block or bolt with no means of support other than the finger lever. See illustrations. The rifle was fired several times with the barrel tight. All cases appeared to be normal except for excessive primer protrusion. Now to state that this action will handle only certain pressers, or that the brass case will not support any amount of pressure seems to be out of order. There is plenty of room for further testing along these lines but the tests described seem to indicate that a very small percentage of the CHAMBER pressure was transferred to the breech bolt in the form of thrust. In this test the barrel absorbed the pressure while the action merely furnish the means for detonating the cartridge except when the chamber was oily.

Here's another post I found in the same thread on the AI cartridges:

Just my two cents worth on BACKTHRUST......

Let me start by saying that I have been a Riflesmith for over 20 years. I have chambered literally thousands of barrels, designed and developed muzzle brakes for myself, customers and military and law enforcement. I have built hundreds of complete custom rifles for people all over the world, includind law enforcement and military.

The Test: Since I do alot of rechamberings on the T/C Contenders, this is what involved the main area of testing. I took several barrels that I had, to the range where a friend and I had built a "stand" to hold a special vice and fixture that we had made specifically for the testing of these Contender barrels. The barrels were locked into this fixture WITHOUT the use of a frame. A "firing device" that was attached to each barrel, via the rear mounting holes in place of a scope base.

The first test involved firing the 30-30 Ackley Improved. With no case head support what so ever, a round was fired and it was found that there was "0" rearward movement of the case! All loads tested were full power hunting and target loads, with the chamber wiped out with alcohol and dried, before the next round was fired. Everything had to be exact, round after round. The test was repeated five times for each cartridge listed. All 5 30-30 Improved cartridges showed "0" backwards movement....

The next test involved the 250 Savage Ackley Improved. Again, all 5 cartridges showed "0" rearward movement when the were fired and two of the cases were actually .002 "deeper" in the chamber after they were fired than before. Reason being, the strike of the firing mechanism had sufficient enough force to drive them further into the chamber....

Next in line was the 7mm T/CU. Same thing as the rest. NO REARWARD MOVEMENT - meaning, absolute ZERO BACKTHRUST!!!

Next came the 35 Remington. well, this was a horse of a diffrent color. This case shot out of the chamber end so fast, that it removed my "firing machanism" with it! I went back and made another one, with slight modifications. I fired off the other four rounds and they all "shot" out the chamber end as well. I set up a piece of pine 2X12 three feet behind the chamber when I went to fire off the last round and that case blew right through it!!!

The next round to be fired was the good ole 30-30 Winchester. It did exactly the same as the 35 Remington! I decided to set my chronograph up behind the chamber to see if I could get a reading on these "projectiles" coming out of the chamber end. I did, it did and I clocked that sucker moving out at 1900 fps!!!

Next was the standard 250 Savage. This was the only one I tried factory ammo in. All of the others were handloads that were developed for those barrels and all of them had the bullets out to touch the rifling. I did shoot two handloads in the 250 Savage as well but all tests were the same. All of the 250 Savage loads exited the "chamber end" at well in excess of 2,000 fps....

I have found that it all boils down to this: if you have a clean and dry chamber and an "Improved" case, meaning "minimum body taper", that when the round is fired, you transmit next to zero or zero backthrust against the frame or bolt! Cases that have a "taper", will always transmit a heavy backthrust against the frame or bolt! How much backthrust it transmits will depend on the taper of the case. Naturally, the greater the taper, the greater the pounding....

Like I said, this is just my two cents worth. I learn something new everyday and learned alot in performing these tests. It has helped me alot in the design and development of my own wildcat cartridges....

Everyone take care and GOD BLESS.

DAVID

---continued

I apologize for not mentioning the primer! I had my notes with me beside the computer and somehow over looked them.

Of cases that had been fireformed and fired one other time, the primer had backed out of the "improved" cases anywhere from .012 to .080 of an inch! cases that had been loaded half a dozen times or so and the primer pockets not quite as snug, probably 90% of them blew completely out of the case! With a piece of 3/8 inch ply wood set up a foot behind the barrel, half of the primers blew completely through it. Alot of them were protuding out the back side and were easy to pull out with bare fingers....

We thought of this before we ever fired the first round. Getting hit by one of these "primer" bullets, would be like being shot with a 22 rifle!!!

I have checked the lug thickness on diffrent rifles that I have built for diffrent customers, namely the ones that shoot alot, and it is amazing to note the lug "compression" on say a 300 H&H vs. even a much larger round like the 30-378. Even with the larger case head diameter and much higher pressures of the 30-378 case, the 300 H&H was still harder on the locking lugs than the much larger Weatherby case....

Case taper most definantly plays a huge role where "backthrust" is concerned....

---and---

My experiances with the .307 Winchester and the .30-30 Improved are similar. The .307 Winchester when loaded to maximum published loads will, on occasion, kick the lever lightly on a hot day. I have worked with the .30-30 Improved a lot in hot weather. I have never had any indication of lever kick with the .30-30 Improved. I have read of similar occurances with the .375 Winchester and the .356 when loaded to maximum published loads and warm weather.