.30-30 Ackley Improved in a Handi

[Fred M]

Zero back trust, eh?  Why bother to put a bolt with lugs in a gun or lock up the breech. Why wast all that money. Why make bolts and actions to withstand loads of 100kpsi.

Just load up any AI or imp with really stiff load of powder and see what happens to the case head and find the bolt handle wont move very easy or not at all.

No I don't have a link. PS does not publish on the web you have to buy the magazine for $3.85.

[JPH45]

JP.

Why the sarcasm?

Gee Fred, Lighten Up :-D Have a laugh, a good long one. There was no sarcasm whatever intended on my part, your sentence just struck me funny.

I've always considered a good load to be one that works well in many guns. 60 grains of H4831 in a 270 Winchester under a 130 grain bullet comes to mind. May not win championships in every gun it's fired in, but generally, if the gun won't shoot this, it has problems.

This thread has really degenerated into a big peein' contest, IMO (that and a dollar buys a cup of coffee) Jason needs to go chop off a 30-30 barrel and have it rechambered to 30AI. The rest of us need to wish him luck and offer our support best we can. It don't have to make sense or work for anyone but Jason. And having built and worked hard on a couple of rifles to get them to shoot well, even when they didn't meet all my expectations, I enjoyed them more than rifles that shot to or better than expected from the box.

I was trying to create a laugh in what seems to be a pointlless game of oneupmanship from where I'm sitting. There's not a soul in this disscussion that has anything to offer other than opinion, none of us are shooting an 18" 30AI. While there is some validity to an educated opinion, it don't carry the weight of a been there and done that opinion. Perhaps I should stick to reading more.

We should laugh at ourselves more often Fred, Makes gfetting along in the world easier and a helluvalot more fun

[jason280]

Zero back trust, eh? Why bother to put a bolt with lugs in a gun or lock up the breech. Why wast all that money. Why make bolts and actions to withstand loads of 100kpsi.

Maybe because all the cartridges available aren't AI??

Fred, are you saying they are all wrong and that the information is incorrect?  I mean, do you think they are lying about their results?  I have researched this a great deal on the internet, and I understand how all internet data must be taken with a grain of salt.  However, most all of the information I've found on the subject supports Ackley's claims, while the only article I have seen mention that challenges his data is the article in PS (which I have been unable to read).  

Just load up any AI or imp with really stiff load of powder and see what happens to the case head and find the bolt handle wont move very easy or not at all.

Which is also a good indication of an unsafe load exceeding established pressure limits, and not necessarily indicative of the results you would see with normal (read "safe") loads.   Besides, I have yet to find any mention of Ackley encouraging dangerous load levels in his AI cartridges.  

No I don't have a link. PS does not publish on the web you have to buy the magazine for $3.85

Then I can only guess what the article reads.  I can appreciate that the article challenges the results, but I would like to see more than one source for this.

[Fred M]

JP.
You are right, should not be too serious about what is said. But I did not think it was funny. Some times funny things are not funny. eh? Well thanks for the reply

280.
If you want to read the article you have to spent $3.85 and if you are really nice and ask they may send you a free copy?

PS Precision is perhaps the most credible authoritative publication dealing in accuracy matters. If I was not so sure I would never quote it.

Whether you believe what I said does not really matter. what is on your mind is what is right, no it is wrong you are right  again. You are always right what is on your mind.

Perhaps you should take another much closer look at Varmint Al 243 analisys. You may not know this but the 243 has an imp. body which is exactly like the Ackley only the shoulder is different. Case wall analisys is nearly the same. The shoulder diameter is just like the AI .454.

How did Ackley determen pressure and velocities and what is safe. And how do you establish a safe load? I had and still have wildcats and of course sticky bolts, flat primers and stuck cases some times. So I have some ideas of what is happening in a chamber and why.

I think I call it a day on this thread I said all I want to say. Lets talk about how to improve the perfomance of a Handi. I mean not AI-ing.

[jason280]

Whether you believe what I said does not really matter. what is on your mind is what is right, no it is wrong you are right again. You are always right what is on your mind

Not really sure what you are trying to say there, but I guess it makes sense to you.


JP has a very good comment in his reply:

There's not a soul in this disscussion that has anything to offer other than opinion, none of us are shooting an 18" 30AI. While there is some validity to an educated opinion, it don't carry the weight of a been there and done that opinion

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is quite simple.  There is literally tons of information on the internet supporting Ackley's data, but only one source (that I've heard of) challenging it.  I simply cannot dismiss the results of countless others based on one article.  I guess its simply a case of "believe what you want".

Also, I have talked to two separate gunsmiths, both of who own .30-30 AI reamers.  Both have reamed quite a few Handi rifles to the AI version, and neither has encountered any problems with the conversion.  Matter of fact, the only concern was the long throat found on some guns, which ulitimately did not affect the conversion and accuracy was acceptable.  

Like I've said before, I really appreciate the information being offered.  I just feel that too many people have jumped in with what they thought was absolute fact, instead of realizing it was just their opinion.  The reality is, as JP pointed out, no one in this thread even owns a .30-30 AI gun.  Furthermore, and this is the comical part, everyone I've talked to who actually owns .30-30 AI's in Contenders feel my expectations are quite possible, while those who don't even own a gun chambered for the cartridge keep claiming they aren't.

How interesting...

[Fred M]

280
You keep on arguing about something you don't understand, quoting guys on the internet comparing apples with oranges. I has been more than a year since this article was published and I have not heard a single comment contrary to its validity. Nobody bad mouthed P.O but he made the one mistake, not a really bad one either considering the parameters.

You want to know about the test order that copy and then in your wisdom contest it. Nobody else has and PS Shooting is distributed world wide.
You write something stupid in that magazine and hell would break loose.

The test that this guy made with an open chamber are only remotely related to reality in terms of rifle cartridges and pressures in real life Imp cartridges. I know what this guy did and can explain it with a simple equation, and it is not what we were talking about.

9 locking lugs on a 300 MKV Wby you know that is an Imp too in case you did not know, straight walls and all. Try that for size in an open end chamber, better not be behind it. It would give you a real headache.

[jason280]

Fred,

First, no one is arguing here, this is just a simple discussion.  

Second, I can see that you hold the article very high, and that is good for you.  But I have yet to see you explain how the tests performed by Ackley and others are false (with the exception of stating "its in the article").  

I has been more than a year since this article was published and I have not heard a single comment contrary to its validity

And exactly what does this prove?  

Using your logic, Ackley's data must be 100% correct.  I mean, his data had been available for over fifty years before a "single comment contrary to its validity" was published.   Furthermore, there has only been one article even published challenging Ackley's findings.  At least, only one has been cited here, and I can find no other on the net.  I don't know about you, but one article published in 50+ years is hardly unequivicol proof, especially considering the countless numbers of shooter's who agree with the man's work.  

9 locking lugs on a 300 MKV Wby you know that is an Imp too in case you did not know, straight walls and all

A blown out H&H case maybe, but with a double-radiased shoulder and no 40* shoulder.  Hardly what I would call an Ackley Improved cartridge.  Also, why even reference this cartridge and the 9 locking lugs?  It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.  Besides, if you will recall, the purpose of the nine lugs was to decrease the amount of bolt throw needed to open the action.  Kind of like the Remington 788 with its six rear lugs.  Otherwise, the cartridge is easily handled by standard two lug bolts, like found in the Remington 700 (which chambers for the cartridge).  

Matter of fact, when the .300 Weatherby was released in the 1940's, it was typically built on Winchester, Springfield, and Mauser actions (many from Sako and FN).  It was quite a time later (almost 15 years) before the MKV action was built, and like anything else Weatherby, it was quite revolutionary for its time.  But nine lugs are not needed to control the .300 Weatherby cartridge, and the mention is hardly relevent in this discussion.

[jason280]

The test that this guy made with an open chamber are only remotely related to reality in terms of rifle cartridges and pressures in real life Imp cartridges

And you can disprove his findings how?  I would really love for you to explain this!

Let me also remind you that the only cartridge this thread is concerned with is the .30-30 AI, and is not worried with the results of any other AI round.

[Fred M]

I mean, his data had been available for over fifty years before a "single comment contrary to its validity" was published.

The earth was flat for centuries until the mistake was discovered that it was round.

Let me also remind you that the only cartridge this thread is concerned with is the .30-30 AI, and is not worried with the results of any other AI round.

Are you back padling now and claim that an AI is not an AI unless it is a 30-30AI loaded to 35K. While in a solid gun the 30 Aardvark (30-30 AI with out the rim) is loaded well over 60k. How dense can yo get. Besides you are not the only one on this forum that want to know about AI's

The tests were done with the 30-30 and the 30-30AI at 50k in a Tompson Center barrel configuration. The reason for the 50K was that the Tompson  Center lock up could be stressed above that pressure.

You would like to know why the cases without a bolt did not blow out the botom. You get out your slide rule and figure it out, for anybody as well versed on iterior ballistics should have no trouble with that at all.

I know how to do it and I am not nearly up to your level of knowledge.

[jason280]

The earth was flat for centuries until the mistake was discovered that it was round

No, the earth has always been round.  I don't think there was ever a time it was "flat for centuries".  Of course, a lot of people thought it was flat, but I don't think PO Ackley was one of them.  

Are you back padling now and claim that an AI is not an AI unless it is a 30-30AI loaded to 35K. While in a solid gun the 30 Aardvark (30-30 AI with out the rim) is loaded well over 60k.

What exactly is "padling", and is that a question or a statement?  I sure hope your (self proclaimed) "interior ballistic skills" are a lot better than your writing skills, as I am struggling to understand what half your replies even mean.  

How dense can yo get. Besides you are not the only one on this forum that want to know about AI's

Well, let them start their own thread, and I'm sure you will offer all your wisdom.  Otherwise, let's limit the discussion here to what's been asked.

The tests were done with the 30-30 and the 30-30AI at 50k in a Tompson Center barrel configuration. The reason for the 50K was that the Tompson Center lock up could be stressed above that pressure.

Ok, good for them.  What exactly were the results?

You would like to know why the cases without a bolt did not blow out the botom. You get out your slide rule and figure it out, for anybody as well versed on iterior ballistics should have no trouble with that at all

Are 'iterior ballistics" anything like "interior ballistics"?  Fred, I see you have gotten excited and are typing faster than you can think.  Good for you, but you keep getting way off topic.  Plus, you have even lowered yourself to infantile insults.  

Once again, I see I need to remind you of what this discussion is about.  The results of other AI cartidges have no bearing here, as the only cartridge I am interested in is the .30-30 AI.  I will say this again.  the only cartridge I am interested in is the .30-30 AI.  I don't care about the .30 Aardvark, the .300 Weatherby, or whatever other cartridge you come up with next.  Furthermore, this is going to be built on a Handi rifle, so we also don't need to hear about 9 locking lugs or Thompson Centers being pushed to 50k pressure levels.  

I see you like trying to distract from the topic, but please try and focus.  You are wasting a lot of bandwidth with your nonsense, and it isn't helping this thread one bit.  I have asked very simple and straightforward questions, but yet this has turned in to a two page pi**ing match.  

So, I will ask this again.  If you don't have anything to add to this thread in the way of actual experience with the .30-30 AI, please do not reply.  If you want to discuss other cartridges, please start another thread as this one is all ready off topic enough.

Thank you!

[jason280]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add.

I ordered a set of .30-30 AI dies from Midway last night, so I should have them next week.  I've also found a 'smith with the proper reamer to do the conversion, so all I need now is a .30-30 Handi!  I've been quoted a price of around $100 for the ream and cutting/recrowning the barrel, which seems like a pretty decent deal.

Now, where is that pesky .30-30 Handi?? :-D

[quickdtoo]

Good luck finding one, when I wanted one, H&R was out of em, had been for a while, everytime a used one came up here, it was snapped up immediately, finally got one on ebay. :oops:

[hellacatcher]

Be sure and let us know how it turns out. inquiring minds wants to know. Mite be something to think about doing to mine.

[.308]

Jason, It takes a couple or three weeks, but NEF had the .30-30 Win barrels a few weeks ago. They're 82 bucks plus fitting/shipping. I got mine back about three weeks ago for my .30-30 AI conversion. 100 bucks sounds fair for the rechamber and cutting/crowning to me.

[jason280]

Well, I thought about ordering a barrel but I really prefer having an entire gun.  I guess I could simply buy the .243 at the local shop and send the frame back, then sell the barrel.  Hmmmm, that may be an idea!   Does anyone know if H&R is offering the .30-30 barrels with an extractor instead of the ejector?  

I actually know someone who has a complete gun, but he's only interested in trading it for something I don't have, and I've offered him exactly what his original selling price was.  Oh well, maybe he'll eventually give in!  Until then, I will be cruising the pawn shops in earnest!

Also, if anyone is considering the conversion, I would go ahead and pick up a set of dies from Midway.  Lee makes special runs of the dies and they are sometimes hard to come by.  Plus, its hard to beat $25 for a set of AI dies!

[quickdtoo]

I don't know this for fact, haven't done it,  but someone posted that you can get the extractor on any barrel you want, just ask for it.  An  email to them would confirm it by Monday.... :wink:


(978) 630-8220     hr1871@hr1871.com

[.308]

My barrel came with the ejector, would've preferred the extractor, but not an issue. I didn't know you could get them either way just by asking??? :? That would definitely be worth a phone call.  Got my Lee dies already.  

[quickdtoo]

I suspect a lot of barrels are coming with extractors by now, here's a previous thread started by Handirifle....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=69106&highlight=extractor+request

[jason280]

The last barrel I got from H&R (couple of months ago) was a .308, and it came with an extractor.

[.308]

The last barrel I got from H&R (couple of months ago) was a .308, and it came with an extractor.

Yep, my .308 barrel did too, but my .22 Hornet, .25-06, and .30-30 came with ejectors. All were on the same order and for the same receiver. I had to wait on the order a couple of weeks extra 'til they had new Hornet barrels in stock, and it still came with a ejector.

[bladerunner]

I got mine at the same time and the 270 ultra comp came with ejecter and the 223 standard came with an extracter

[hellacatcher]

Jason280    Whittakerguns has a 30-30 listed in bouth there new ans used guns.

[jason280]

Thanks for the info!

[.308]

Jason, Mine's done. Did it this afternoon. No problem.