Will the .223 WSSM last?

[coyote trapper1929]

Anyone got an opinion as to wether the .223 WSSM will be around in 20 or 30 years or will this round be like the 7-30Waters, 307 Winchester and the 356 Winchester? Here today and gone in a few years?

Thanks,

[Ramrod]

I wouldn't bet on it being any more popular in 30 years than the .225 Winchester is now.

[Lawdog]

I wouldn't bet on it being any more popular in 30 years than the .225 Winchester is now.

Sorry but 'Ramrod' is wrong in his prediction.  The old .225 Win. was introduced in 1964 in the Win. M70.  Problem was it had to compete with the .22-250 that Remington adopted in 1965 and it lost the contest.  Shooters didn’t take to the rimmed or semi-rimmed case of the .225 Winchester at that time even though it’s almost a ballistic twin to the .22-250.  The .223 WSSM is competing against nothing.  It tops the .22-250 and the .220 Swift velocity wise which makes it the New Velocity King of factory loaded centerfire .224 cartridges.  Sales of the .223 WSSM are still running very high where long range varmint hunting/shooting is done.  It is the number one seller of the WSSM line, with the .25 WSSM coming in second and the .243 WSSM coming in a close third.  Have no fear there are lots of .223 WSSM’s selling, more rifle manufactures are chambering rifles for it and more loads are being developed as we speak.  It going to be around long for a very long time.  Lawdog
 

[Lone Star]

What might sink the WSSM cartridges is the issue of excessive bolt thrust.  Numerous users of both Winchester and Browning rifles have experienced some symptoms, such as hard extraction, hard chambering of fired cases, and short case life.  Remember what put the Swift on the back burner for decades in spite of its high performance - issues of short case life, thickening necks and high pressures.  A similar perception of the WSSMs could cause them longevity problems today.

This problem is due to the WSSM cartridges having a larger inside case diameter than other magnum cases, and coupled with the fact that they are loaded to higher pressures than about 95% of all other cartridges there is a potential for excessive bolt thrust.  Perhaps not with factory ammo, but we all know handloaders, they will "know better" than the factories and increase pressures even more.  This comment is common on other boards: "The .223 WSSM doesn't begin to shoot well until pressures are up over 60,000 psi".  Of course the shooter has absolutely no idea what his pressures really are, but he knows they gotta be high for the cartridge to work right....

Another issue is that of bore life.  The .243 was noted by Winchester as having a very short barrel life of about 400-600 rounds IIRC.  They solved that issue by using chrome plated bores - but how many serious varmint hunters will bother to rebarrel to a WSSM with a $400 custom barrel which may only last 500 rounds?  Just another potential tripping issue.  Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of these cartridges, but they may just be "ahead of their time" at the moment.

[victorcharlie]

Seems to me that a lot of the guys fall for the high velocity trap.......They just have to have the fastest, flattest shooting rifle out there..........My guess is that they'll sell a bunch of them..........but not to me...........22.250 does everything I'd ask from a .22 caliber........

[Big Paulie]

No doubt it is a great long range varmint shooter, but after every long range varmint hunter west of the Mississippi buys one or two, that will be the end of it.  I don't think that its appeal will stand up to the test of time, so that people will still be buying them 10 years from now.


  Remember the .264 Winchester Magnum?   A great round ballistically, and a big seller for a few years.   But eventually, the negatives of the round became generally recognized, and I believe that the .223 WSSM shares the same negatives.


  Just my opinions.

Big Paulie

[Lawdog]

Numerous users of both Winchester and Browning rifles have experienced some symptoms, such as hard extraction, hard chambering of fired cases, and short case life.

There is no feeding problems with the WSSM cartridges.  A few random reports but that is normal for any cartridge as lemons happen with all manufactures.  The claims of short case life is a joke.  The WSSM case in thicker from the web to the neck than other cartridges with the exception of the WSM.  They stretch less thus last longer.  I do less trimming on my WSSM cases(both .223 & .25) as compared to my .22-250 and .25-06's.  

Remember what put the Swift on the back burner for decades in spite of its high performance - issues of short case life, thickening necks and high pressures. A similar perception of the WSSMs could cause them longevity problems today.

The issues that existed with the Swift doesn't exist with the .223 WSSM.  When the .220 Swift was first introduced in 1935 barrels didn't last and were more prone to wear than they are now.  The problem with the .220 Swift was hand loaders loaded it to maximum levels and thus burned out their barrels.  You can do the same thing with any cartridge.  Back off a few grains and you'll be surprised at how long barrels will last.  Especially with the newer, better barrels of today.  As for barrel life, I have over 1,500 rounds through my .223 WSSM and over 600 rounds through my .25 WSSM with little to no signs of throat erosion.  Again it’s all due to how “HOT” you load your cartridges.  Lawdog
 

[Ramrod]

In every bullet size I can think of from .223 to .458, the "New Velocity King" cartridge soon fades from popularity as the problems show up. If downloading is the answer to the problems, then this round has no advantage over the .22-250, and will be abandoned by many current users.

[Lawdog]

In every bullet size I can think of from .223 to .458, the "New Velocity King" cartridge soon fades from popularity as the problems show up. If downloading is the answer to the problems, then this round has no advantage over the .22-250, and will be abandoned by many current users.

One of these days ‘Ramrod’ you’ve got to give me the address where you got your crystal ball.  Should be great at parties and other gatherings whenever a good laugh is needed.   :-D  :-D   Lawdog
 

[Ramrod]

I don't have a crystal ball, Lawdog. I just seem to be able to learn from history.

[victorcharlie]

Either of you want to buy one? :-D

[Patriot_1776]

Lawdog,

I've found it is just much easier to not argue with certain people about certain subjects.  What matters is your experience.  You're getting great performance, having lots of fun, and very pleased with it.  That's all that matters IMO.  


Many of these guys either have not shot a WSSM, nor payed much attention to what we who have experience with one share.  I just recently traded mine off.  Reason: I was not shooting it as much anymore, and I hated just having it sit around.  But I will say it was a good cartridge; I could feel the potential it had.  One thing that got me, was the brass I bought for reloading; is was pretty much blah.  All but 12 casings out of 50 I could label as "suitable" to reload.  The other 38 had what seemed to me considerable structural grain issues.  Splits, or for lack of a better term "deep lines" were discovered on the shoulder and neck.  One from another bag had split at the mouth after the first firing.  

But it did not have any feeding problems.  As I said,  I'm not going to argue with other folks about these points. I'd much rather help others with their reloading questions, answer simple questions about firearms, request answers for my questions, and things of similar nature.




-Patriot

[Lawdog]

Ramrod,

I just seem to be able to learn from history.

History??  You mean history like when the .243 Win. was first introduced and the "gun rag writers" wrote it off because "it offers nothing over existing cartridges such as the .257 Roberts" and that there were only two factory loads for it?  That kind of history?  

Patriot_1776,

One thing that got me, was the brass I bought for reloading; is was pretty much blah. All but 12 casings out of 50 I could label as "suitable" to reload. The other 38 had what seemed to me considerable structural grain issues. Splits, or for lack of a better term "deep lines" were discovered on the shoulder and neck. One from another bag had split at the mouth after the first firing.

You're the first person I have heard with that comlaint.  Was that factory ammo you were reloading?  The reason I ask is the WSSM brass is thicker from the web to the neck than other brass for cartridges such as the .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .220 Swift, etc.

I've found it is just much easier to not argue with certain people about certain subjects.

Sorry but it's just not in me to let rumors get spread.  Lawdog
 

[victorcharlie]

Heck........I know you two love each other........and a spirited debate..........Greybeards forums provide alot of entertainment to me.......and you two add alot to it..........Those of us that have been here awhile enjoy hearing from both of you.....the subject it's self is subjective in nature and only time will tell...........the origional poster wanted opinions, pro and con and that's what he got........

So you two put the gloves back on and have at it........round 3.......DING! :-D

[mjbgalt]

lemme help:

choose one topic and write an essay on it, using as much bandwidth as possible. try to call as many names as you can and invite a lot of comebacks. extra points given if you can force someone to leave GBO forever.

1)can i make a rifle frame TC into a pistol?
2)the .243 is a great elk rifle.
3)why can't i use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader?
4)you know, i have a .450 that can shoot 1/2" groups at 4000 yards.
5)lawdog's .25-06 couldnt kill a chipmunk.
6)ramrod loves everything WSSM.

DING!

 

teehee.

-Matt

[Patriot_1776]

Lawdog wrote:

You're the first person I have heard with that comlaint. Was that factory ammo you were reloading? The reason I ask is the WSSM brass is thicker from the web to the neck than other brass for cartridges such as the .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .220 Swift, etc.

The factory ammo and brass was fine; it was new brass I got from Cabela's (50 per bag x2), which of course was Winchester brand.  I still have them, if you want me to try and get some pics up, just let me know.  

Sorry but it's just not in me to let rumors get spread.

I understand your position, as I have it too.  My idea is that you have stated quite eloquently the good points in favor of the WSSMs, and deposed the many myths about them many times, as I too have done.  But there are some people out there who simply will not accept what anyone says.  So it is in those regards, once everything is said and done, I find it is not worth saying over and over.  Exception being if some new member wants an opinion for himself, then I will tell him what I've said to many others.  At least that is the point I have come to over time.  Now if someone wants me to get into a debate, then thats OK with me...As long as I have the time. :lol:




-Patriot

P.S.    :grin: Hey Matt, you might want to post that as a new thread; please don't try and get everyone off the topics.  I understand it was posted in fun, but it could most likely lead to a lock-up here though (way off topic).  We're talking about the 223 WSSM.

[roper]

In our part of the country don't see too many with a 223wssm we had afew pretty good shooters who got them right off but sold them had a problem with gas leaking back on the case.  We have afew guys in our club with AR in 223wssm for the heavier bullets and seem to get along with them OK.  We have some pretty dedicated varmit shooter here and we keep the local gunsmiths busy replacing barrels but not in 223wssm it hasn't impressed anyone that I know of.  We are just now starting to see afew custom rigs in Ruger 204.  In the 22 cal will see more 22-250AI,22x243 then it moves up to 6mm.  
When I hear guys talk about the 223wssm being the fastest badest 22 cal I wonder where they got their education in the shooting world.  Only thing I know it should be fast with the amount of powder it burns if you took another like case capacity round you could get the same velocity as the 223wssm you start using from 42 to 50gr of powder you better get some velocity in 22cal and that may be the down fall of the 223wssm and 243wssm.  I never needed an excuse not to build a rifle but I will not waste my money on a 223wssm or 243wssm.  Too many other good rounds out there.  Just my .02

[Ramrod]

Ramrod,

I just seem to be able to learn from history.

History??  You mean history like when the .243 Win. was first introduced and the "gun rag writers" wrote it off because "it offers nothing over existing cartridges such as the .257 Roberts" and that there were only two factory loads for it?  That kind of history?

No, this kind. The .243 Win was never the high velocity king of anything. It became popular, and remains so today because it is not a super-duper wizz-bang magnum.

[Patriot_1776]

Personally, I don't really see an actual need for the WSSMs.  Now don't get me wrong, I find nothing against them.  But I do feel they are not necessary to continue the saga insofar the idea of a super-powered varmint "gitter".  They should not be thought of as replacing all the other rounds they surpass as well, not that that has been surmised here to a certain extent.  But I do feel there is more that can be done to make them more palatable to the general public.  Here is why I say that:

I've aquired some knowledge over time, and I feel that if Winchester were to standardize the WSSMs more than they have, then their popularity would go up.  If the component's prices were not inflated above other standard cartridges, then their popularity might go up.

The key is, Winchester is the only one (currently/that I know of) that makes ammo and brass for these cartridges.  Through this, they hope to make more on the expected hype about these rounds.  I find nothing "special" about them over the 22-250, 220 Swift, and many other high velocity cartridges for mostly varmint.  It is simply another offering for the ever increasing choice of rounds available to hunters and other types of shooter out there.  I just can't think of all the different clubs that must be out there for certain types of rounds.  Example being something like the .50 Caliber Shooters Association.  

As I was saying, I don't find it necessary to tout the WSSMs over any others out there.  But I do think that Winchester should allow a more flexible offering with these rounds, if their popularity is hoped to increase some.  In essence, don't gouge more profit out of everyone because they want to emphasize on their 200fps more speed than the top velocity round currently out there.  I do have my reasons to suspect the Winchester is trying to capitalize on the velocity hype of these rounds though.  Of course, they are faster than "many" other popular rounds out there, but that is no reason to charge so much on their components...meanwhile being the only ones who build rifles (Browning included), and make the ammo and brass for these cartridges exclusively.  That, my friends, is why the .243 Winchester became so popular.  It was standardized.  Almost every rifle manufacturer made rifles in this cartridge; almost every ammo manufacturer had developed ammo for them.  Not to mention they all made reloading components for them available to reloaders.  In addition, with no real price increase over standard rounds because it was "special".  

Believe me, if they did back then with the .243 Win. what they are doing now with the WSSMs, then the .243's popularity might have been in question today.  Provided it would still have been in existance.  Lastly, I don't understand why there is always a need for something "new".  If the 220 Swift, 22-250, and many other excellent varmint cartridges have been in good tastes this far with more than enough accuracy and power for what they're used for, why the need for change?  In all reality, there comes a point to which there is nothing more to be gained, except the fact that it is "different" or "special".  I don't think those two adjectives make the round any better (or deadlier) for varmints, medium game, large game, or whatever.

 If anything I've said here is too complicated or incorrect, I'm open to correction or in helping to make it easier to understand.


All right, I've said enough, and I'm in the debate with one foot...


-Patriot

[mjbgalt]

my post, in case anyone did not notice (?) was a joke meant to lighten the mood.

i didn't expect anyone to actually answer the questions lol.

-Matt

[victorcharlie]

What?  You were joking? :eek:    

[Ramrod]

Personally, I don't really see an actual need for the WSSMs. ......-Patriot

You and millions of others.

The entire post was excellent, but I want to address these two points.

Lastly, I don't understand why there is always a need for something "new".

-Patriot

The need lies with the gun companies. Their only motive is profit, and if they can convince someone pay alot more for stuff that is "new" or "better", well, thats just good business.
Just like with cars, computers, electronics, ect., there is always someone who will pay through the nose to get the "newest, shiniest, fastest", wonder that comes along.

[victorcharlie]

Got to agree with you on this Ramrod......With youth usually comes a certain amount of indiscretion......

[Dana C]

It is interesting how the short magnum has been popularized.  P.O. Ackley achieved the same kind of performance years ago with his variation on many popular cartrigdes.  In this case, for less than $100 you can have have a gun smith ream out the chamber of any .223 to .223 Ackley Improved and enjoy longer case life, accuracy and performance like that of a 22.250.  You can fire form the cases and get the best of both worlds without buying a .223 WSM.

Will the short mag. last?  Who knows, I suspect that some calibers will and others won't, especially the ones whose reason for being is dubious like the .223 WSM.
IMHO
Dana

[Patriot_1776]

Lastly, I don't understand why there is always a need for something "new". If the 220 Swift, 22-250, and many other excellent varmint cartridges have been in good tastes this far with more than enough accuracy and power for what they're used for, why the need for change?

Ramrod wrote:

The need lies with the gun companies. Their only motive is profit, and if they can convince someone pay alot more for stuff that is "new" or "better", well, thats just good business.
Just like with cars, computers, electronics, ect., there is always someone who will pay through the nose to get the "newest, shiniest, fastest", wonder that comes along.

As was expected, you gave the perfectly correct answer to that question.  Nothing more was in my mind when I put it there: profit!  The only reason they would keep comin' out with something new is to make more money, and hype it up a bit.  They are nifty looking rounds, and work upon an interesting concept; but they should not be made into something for the varmint/hunting world they are not: A MIRACLE!  They are simply something new out there, and offer an approach quite different from the general trend of cartridge design.  That is their selling point most often.  But until they become more standardized than they are currently, then it is safe to say their growth in popularity will be either very slow, or stunted all together.  Give it time.  They are too new to really fortell a lasting place in the competition.  New designs for a vehicle always boost sales a little at first; but only time will tell whether they are worth the effort, bring something over the competition, and are useful.  


-Patriot

[Lawdog]

Got to agree with you on this Ramrod......With youth usually comes a certain amount of indiscretion......

Oh Thank You So Much for the youth comment.   :-D   Lawdog