Author Topic: Minimum Caliber for Defense? (Read 2413 times)

papajohn428 · « **on:** November 27, 2005, 09:39:11 AM »

I'm limited to a 38 on duty by local statute, but if it were up to me I'd like something bigger/badder/meaner. I think the 38 is adequate, especially with practice, but if I were king, I'd mandate something bigger. My 40SW would do the trick, a 44 Special would be even better, even though six is all it holds. I bought a Bersa 380 a few years back, but I wouldn't grab it first, I have lots of better choices. I think it might work at halitosis range, but I'd rather not have to find out. Still, lots of folks carry 32's and 25's, or two-shot derringers, on the theory that any gun is better than none. You know the mantra, a 32 in the pocket is better than a 45 at home in a drawer, etc. But what caliber do YOU consider the bottom end for a defensive use?

Papajohn

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2005, 11:56:44 AM »

Easy question!
The biggest calibre you can shoot accurately, repeatedly.

Damir Besic · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2005, 12:00:19 PM »

I just bought a nice PPK/S Walther in .380 wich is almost as good as 9mm,specialy with 102 gr Golder Saber HP round.I think that would be the smalest gun I would trust to carry.It is small enough to grab it of the table and drop it into your pocket without a problem,while my favorite guns like 629 in .44M or .45 Kimber Eclipse will not be too comfortible.Sometimes I grab my SP101 in .357 with me,small enough and planty of power.

Db

hogship · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2005, 02:59:53 PM »

For me, bare bones minimum is a 25acp Seecamp. I wouldn't buy a 25acp, but I have one......so that's the minimum. I also have a NAA 22mag revolver and an NAA 32acp automatic. Of the three, the NAA 32acp would be my best choice.

hog

inluvwithsara · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2005, 05:59:36 PM »

A hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 45, or worse, the gun you need that you left at home because you think its a pain to carry...
Me, my S&W 36 (38cal) is the smallest I'd consider...but then I tend to carry a 45acp (Glock 30), or a 44 spl, (Super Blackhawk 4 5/8ths)

I have always been taught that even a 38 is a gut/face gun...

But then, shoot me with a .177 and I would be on the floor crying...

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2005, 06:44:00 PM »

I carry either a 9mm or a 45 ACP. Depends on the clothing I am wearing. But I always have my NAA 22 MAG in my pocket.

Fireball 57 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2005, 05:32:28 AM »

Butlerford45 has the right idea! During a high intensity, adrenaline filled event, Front sight Control, is the minimum caliber you need to survive! AND Bill Jorden said it best, "there is no such thing as fair play!" :gun4:

Savage · « **Reply #7 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:19:44 AM »

PJ,
Guess you're stuck with what your company issues. A lot of security services are about 30yrs behind in training and equipment. Some of the more progressive companies are allowing their guards to carry an approved weapon from a list of makes and calibers. They also are providing basic firearms training and a police type qualification course. With modern ammo the .38 can be pretty effective. (Hope you are not issued 158gr RN) My primary concern with a revolver used in uniformed security is the limited ammo load. Which is normally 18 rds with the revolver vs about 40-50 with autos. If you are allowed to carry speedloaders, get some good ones and practice your reloads. Just curious, are you allowed to carry a concealed backup? A New York reload is the fastest there is! Stay Safe.
Savage

papajohn428 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 29, 2005, 10:49:11 AM »

Howdy, Savage, good to hear from you!

The problem in my case isn't as much the company rules as the local ordinances, St. Louis City only allows guards to carry a 38 4-inch, no magnums. St. Louis County allows 9mm or 40 Autos, but only if you work in a bank. My company's policy calls for company-issued guns only, hence they only have 38's available, and they issue 6 rounds of whatever ammo they have, which usually isn't too bad, it tends to be 38 HP in either 125 or 158 grain variety. But some companies around here not only require you to buy your own gun, they limit their officers to 158 RN lead ammo! I inspected an officer's gun last week, he was carrying some weird 158-JSP stuff he was issued when he worked at the ZOO (!) in case he had to put down an escaped animal. I relieved him of that stuff and gave him some of my Gold Dots, and his comment was that he was told "HP ammo is illegal"! Jeez, some of the misinformation that abounds in security is scary. Half the people carrying on duty don't have any business with ANY weapon, and the lack of training is a crime in itself. And at my insistence, most of my guys are now carrying speedloaders, but I'll bet none of them ever practice with them. As for a backup gun, no way, not around here. The sad part is, the average citizen with a CCW can carry whatever they want, but the people who WORK armed can't. I just moved back to Missouri recently (because of the CCW law, Illinoise will NEVER have one) and as soon as I'm legal, I'm getting my carry permit, and packing the biggest gun I can wear. It's gonna feel weird, getting off duty, and putting on a better gun than I can carry at work!

Papajohn

Savage · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2005, 11:12:38 AM »

Man, crazy ordinances in SL!! Sounds like there needs to be some changes made in that town!! You might want to move a little further south or west. Meanwhile the .38 will have to do. Good luck!
Savage

rockbilly · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2005, 12:23:04 PM »

Everybody is on the big bore kick. I agree to a point, but I too believe that two or three (even 22s) small caliber hits are better than 6-8 big bore misses. What do you shoot best? Can you get off an accurate second shot?. Personally I think at least a .38 or larger is best, but I have been known to pack a .25 when dress prevents something larger.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 29, 2005, 12:37:22 PM »

Back in the 50's and 60's, before this PC nonsense got started, police officers and licensed guards were allowed to carry whatever they could qualify with, and you could always tell the rookies from the veterans. The young guys tended to show up with the latest wondergun in whatever caliber fit the criteria, and when it came time to qualify, they blasted fast and missed a lot. Then the older guys went up to bat, and carefully drilled the 10-ring with slower, aimed fire. There were a lot of 44 Special and 45ACP wheelguns at reasonable prices, and the more experienced officers usually bought them. They'd have the barrels cut to a better length if they were too long, mount good sights, have the action slicked up, fit some better stocks, and then they'd settle on a good load and PRACTICE with it until they were deadly at all ranges. These days most guys shoot to qualify, take the gun home, don't bother to clean it, stuff fresh ammo in it, and carry it every day for six months until they have to re-qualify. And they whine about how the action is gritty and the accuracy is poor, when all they have to do is clean the cobwebs and lead out of it, oil it once in a while, and practice with it.

Were it up to me, and I was still limited to a wheelgun, I'd find a three or four-inch 44 Special, load it with Silvertips for duty use, and shoot it every chance I got.

I guess that makes me a dinosaur. :eek: No big news there!

Papajohn

hobbyist · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2005, 04:41:07 AM »

Well put Butlerford.

I carry 9mm with +P+ Hollow points or 40SW Corbons depending on the situation. My 9mm is full size and 40sw CC size.

bmbtek02 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2005, 09:47:53 PM »

I feel you should carry what your comfortable with. I carry a glock 27 and I carry 22mag with a poket clip but whatever I carry I practice with including reloads I also have a Kel-Tec 380 loaded with rounds from Mt Juilet TN and a 380 with thier round is traveling at aprrox 1800fps and I personally have shot large watermelons with this round and it is devistating what they will do. Hope this helps

ronbow · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2005, 04:44:35 AM »

I chose 9mm for in town concealed and .357 Ruger GP in fanny pack for the woods.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #15 on:** December 16, 2005, 10:37:58 PM »

I think we've got to ask, "defense against WHAT?".
If you expect an attack from 85 pound, 85 year old Mrs. Peepsqueak from down the street who'll most likely be wielding an "attack umbrella" then break out the pellet gun and stop her in her tracks mo-skosh- quick. IF, on the other hand you think your assailent may be 6' 12", 350 pound Luie Packaload who just finished a ten year stint in state prison and has a fresh load of meth, PCP, or heroine (or some combination of the three) in his veins, then perhaps you'd want to consider something with a bit more stopping power. Why not be prepared for the worst case scenario?

papajohn428 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2005, 03:56:55 PM »

Jeez, Dusty, if I was expecting to be attacked by an old lady with an umbrella I doubt I'd be worried about packing a gun! Unfortunately, the business I watch over is 200 feet away from the St Louis office of Mo. Probation and Parole, and we have several hundred seedy customers a day wandering by, always looking for a target of opportunity, be it a vehicle or a person. Not all, but some, are exactly like you described, only bigger. Me being four-foot-eighteen and armed doesn't seem to intimidate them much, for some reason. A defensive situation involves the worst-case scenario, or don't bother playing the game. Kinda like hiking in Alaska with a gun suitable for chipmunks. I'm still convinced tactics and training are a lot more important than the caliber, but you need to set a low-end threshhold somewhere, and that's all I'm asking about. Everyone has different standards, I'm simply asking what those are. Once I get my CCW permit, I'll be leaving work, taking off a 38, and putting on a 40/44/357. Why? Because I CAN!

Papajohn the Right Jolly Armed Elf

Nuttinbutchunks · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2005, 12:07:51 PM »

9mm. That was my first carry gun until I bought the Ultra Compact .45 I carry now.

Almtnman · « **Reply #18 on:** December 25, 2005, 04:33:38 AM »

Years ago when I was a LEO, the barebones minimun caliber was .38 special, nothing smaller than that could be carried. I would think that this would still hold true today. For your own protection though, you need something that you can shoot very accurately and depend on being able to use it very quickly on a mili-seconds notice, so someone making a purchase might need to check several different brands, calibers to get what's best for them.

I carried a S&W model 19 .357 while I was in LE, but today, my personal concealed carry is a Sig P-220 .45acp. I chose this pistol after checking many pistols out to see which one was most accurate and fastest to use for me.

Don't ever scrimp on a pistol or ammo for self protection. :wink:

cvixx · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2006, 07:00:21 AM »

Jeez...for 10 years of police work, usually in the worst parts of L.A., I carried a Model 15 with 158 grain bullets, although the city finally learned about 125 grain softpoints, which did not expand anyway. Never really felt undergunned. Practice is the key and we qualified monthy, got an extra $2 a month for Starpshooter, up to $8 a month for Distinguished Expert (70s $) And that was with revolvers altered to DAO (as well as personally owned firearms carried as a back-up).

If that is what they make you carry, and you can take your pistol home, practice as often as you can including dryfiring at a target, carry 3 speedloaders if they let you and practice in loading from them. Too many people insist on a big bore and then do not put the rounds through it to be proficient.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2006, 03:47:45 PM »

Hey cvixx, glad you made it thru those creepy days in LA! My gun is company -issued (their stupid rule, not mine!) but it goes to the range with me at leat once a week, and I average about 16,000 rounds a year thru it, mostly on bowling pins at 7 yards and soda cans at 50 yards. When I'm dialed in I hit the cans about 4 for 6, or at least make them dance with a hit just under them. Shooting paper stinks, give me a reactive target with instant feedback, and I'll make a pistol shot out of anyone! I've trained quite a few, seasoned vets to novice teenaged girls, and as long as you're willing to master the basics, you can shoot as well as you can see. If I had my druthers I'd be carrying something besides a 38, but I do NOT feel outgunned in most circumstances. For that matter, if I was anticipating getting into a shootout, I'd be looking for a rifle!

PJ

williamlayton · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2006, 12:17:18 AM »

One of the truck guns is a FN 7. I like it.-well, er, 20 times over.
Blessings

chevyfan1a4 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 16, 2006, 06:32:29 PM »

Smallest caliber i would use would be .22mag. Rapid follow up shots are more important than a few millimeters of bullet. Nobody likes to bleed and 6-8 shots of 22 mag sure makes you bleed a lot more than a miss with a .45 acp.

I use a PT-92 9mm with 135gr hydra shoks for defense. I can put them where i want them and do it quick.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #23 on:** March 16, 2006, 10:27:58 PM »

I you can't hit at close range with a 45 ACP then perhaps a gun is not your best mode of self-defense.

Savage · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2006, 01:41:12 AM »

I you can't hit at close range with a 45 ACP then perhaps a gun is not your best mode of self-defense

Amen!

Savage

chevyfan1a4 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2006, 06:59:16 AM »

If you are referring to my comment, I figured i would let you know that I can shoot a .45 just fine. But wasn't the question what is the smallest caliber you would use for self defense? Just stating my opinion here.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #26 on:** March 17, 2006, 09:56:17 AM »

Its OK to state your opinion, I like to see other folk's point of view. But, I'm not shy about stating my own opinion as well.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 17, 2006, 11:12:54 AM »

........And that's exactly why I put this topic up here in the first place. I have my standards, just wondered what everyone else thinks. We've all heard the, "A .22 that hits is better than the 9/40/38/45 (pick one) that's too big to carry" argument. So assuming you can CONCEAL a smaller gun, what do you think is the smallest that can reasonably be expected to cease hostilities before you run it dry? Personally, I like my 3" .357, but being a squatty little guy, I can't conceal it well in warm weather. So I'm thinking the .380 Bersa will be my choice. Of course, I also knew cops that carried 25's and 32's, even 22's, who felt that ANY gun was better than nothing. Granted, most also thought they'd never need a gun off duty, until they learned what some people will do to those they think are defenseless.

As stated, I pack a .38 on duty, because I have to. I practice with it every chance I get, but I also shoot revolvers better (in general) than autos. That is not to say I wouldn't rather have 13/25 rounds of 40 caliber, I just can't conceal a gun that size except in winter. But given the choice of 6 38's, or 5 44 Specials, I'll take the bigger bullet. Big-bore madness aside, I shoot my 44's well because I TRAIN with them, and have more faith in their ability to dump a BG on his keister. And if I have the hammer halfway back as the BG is looking into the barrel, a 44 might get his attention a tad faster than a smaller caliber. Another reason to love stainless guns........that hole in the barrel looks even bigger, for some reason. Which would be almost as scary as the cranky old bald man holding it!

Papajohn

257 roberts · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2006, 01:26:17 PM »

Carry your 38 in your duty holster and your 380 in a good ankle holster and a Keltec 32 in your pocket and your ready for a days work :wink:

fknipfer · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2006, 03:39:34 PM »

I am in Kansas and we are about to have a CCW law. Passed the legislature with enough votes to override our Socialist Governor. So a little thought I am giving on this subject.
In my normal life I have no need to carry but there are places in town I would like to go that seem to have problems on the weekends which makes me stay away from them. Even though they are fun place on the weekends.
If I was to carry I would carry a SP101 3" barrel .357 Magnum with 158gr JSN. If I would have to pull a gun I sure hope I would never have to use it. Most of the time just the sight of a gun will make the trouble go away.
I practice enough so that if I had to fire I would not get sued by the aggressor.
The worst thing in the world a person could do is to take another life, but if your life was in danger sometimes things happen.

fknipfer