Author Topic: are muzzeloaders restricted.. (Read 940 times)

fffffg · « **on:** November 29, 2005, 10:34:38 PM »

i am an ffl dealer and it seems there is alot of missconception about what caplock and flintlock guns are classified as.. to my best knoweledge caplock and flintlock firearms are not regulated by buyers age, the brady bill, or atf regulation etc.. please correct me on this.. ill bet different states have differing laws on this, and you would not be able to break any law in another state even if you are in another state... that would be, i could not sell a firearem to an out of state resident where that firearm is illegal.... if the gun fires a primer then it is regulated by the laws and the atf eversees that.. now if the gun is an antique pre 1895 and fires a cap and or is a cartridge gun it is not regulated by the atf/ federal laws like modern cap guns.... i do believe a judge can specify that the perp in a crime cannot use black powder fire arms in the sentance.. i also belive that some crimes like non violent crimes that are felonies can, if handleld properly by your lawyer, will not keep you from using or purchasing restricted fire arms after your sentance is served.. i realize this may be montana law, and other states have differening laws.. so lets get this aired out now and any and all knowelegable input on this matter would be appreciated.. dave.

Birddog6 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 30, 2005, 02:15:50 AM »

I think it all depends on the state, crime involved, judge, etc. I know of 2 individuals that were not allowed to own or have in their possession ANY type of firearm, period........

fffffg · « **Reply #2 on:** November 30, 2005, 04:44:25 AM »

birddog,, thats the whole point.. its my understanding that caplock and flintlock muzzeloaders are not considered firarems, and are legaly exempt.. this is federal,, ...dave.

crow_feather · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2005, 04:45:10 AM »

Felons, by nature are usually those who cannot control their actions. They do something that causes great loss or great pain to other people. I for one, get a little worried about having these people in the woods with loaded weapons, black powder or otherwise. Now there are exceptions, and a judge can sort these out.

C F

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2005, 10:51:38 AM »

Where I live in Florida muzzleloaders are considered firearms by state law in the statutes that regulate hunting. That doesn't apply though when making a purchase. EXCEPT here in Hillsborough county ( Tampa) where they have a three day waiting period for everything including Flare pistols, and starter pistols.
What is not covered by law in any way here is the fact that I just bought via mail order a new Ruger Old Army. No paperwork, no nothing.

Rusty <><

slayer · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2005, 01:27:23 PM »

I beleive muzzleloaders are also considerd modern firearms in Michigan and Illinois and are FFL guns. That is sad for all involved. Thank God I live in PA, we are safe for now, but.............. Jack.

spitpatch · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2005, 06:42:25 PM »

Unrestricted by Missouri law....... I do believe felons of non-voilent crimes should have their rights restored after an appropriate attonement period. We have a few former felons at our church that made foolish mistakes earlier in life but are now model citizens. I believe making a foolish (non-violent) mistake (choice) should be forgiven at some point in time.

Slamfire · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2005, 07:35:06 PM »

Quote from: spitpatch

Unrestricted by Missouri law....... I do believe felons of non-voilent crimes should have their rights restored after an appropriate attonement period. We have a few former felons at our church that made foolish mistakes earlier in life but are now model citizens. I believe making a foolish (non-violent) mistake (choice) should be forgiven at some point in time.

I can't speak for all states, but in some, felons can petition, either the courts or the governor to have their rights restored. I do NOT believe this should happen automatically, but only with some kind of review.

spitpatch · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2005, 08:57:52 PM »

I fully agree, After the "attonement period" if and when a former (non-violent) felon has become a productive citizen with no further blemishes on his/her record They should have their rights/privlages re-instated. I don't believe that time is after time served. I think a track record needs to be established......How much longer?.........I don't know. I just don't think a person should be punished for the rest of their life, depending on the felony, of course. Violent felonies involving weapons and/or people is another matter. There are many classes of felonies where basic stupidity was involved and most occur in a persons youth. (when there most stupid). I had numerous run-ins with the law when I was young....no felonies (only because I didn't get caught) and now at 48 yrs. old, I am our churches treasurer and teach a sunday school class, and would not even think of doing something evil. (Gods grace, mercy, and longsuffering of me) I owe everything I've become and all I have to him!

Ramrod · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2005, 10:56:03 AM »

Federal law does not consider muzzleloaders to be firearms, and there-fore are not regulated in interstate commerce. So it seems legal to ship them anywhere, FFL or not. State laws are all over the map though, and usually it is up to the receiving individual to be in compliance with local laws. As an example, in New York State, all muzzleloading guns are non-guns, and rifles are not regulated. But heres a dilema. One can mail order, and possess a muzzleloading pistol, or a cap-n-ball revolver, without restriction, as it is not a firearm. But as soon as he loads it, it becomes a pistol, and he needs a pistol liscence to possess. And the Communist Entity known as New York City, has it's own more restrictive laws.
A similar situation exists with mail ordering black powder. Federal law says you can purchase 50 lbs at a time, and most distributors will be more than happy to ship it to your door via UPS. But in many states, you will be in deep doo-doo if caught with that amount on your premises.

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** December 01, 2005, 11:59:52 AM »

While MOST muzzle loaders are not classified as FIREARMS under federal law one is. The Thompson Center Encore and if you have a barrel for one the Contender also would be. They are always firearms regardless of the barrel attached because of the interchangeable barrels which can be made into handguns, rifles, shotguns or muzzle loaders just by changing barrels.

crow_feather · « **Reply #11 on:** December 01, 2005, 12:09:16 PM »

spitpatch,

Still tryin ta get away with stuff I see. In your info on the left, you say your age is 46, but then in your writin, you say yer 48. Forgot ya fibbed about yer age before.

Hey, the 1 under my name is cause I thought they was askin about I.Q.

C F

spitpatch · « **Reply #12 on:** December 01, 2005, 02:42:46 PM »

Crow feather........Nooooo! I'm not fibbin'. I entered my date of birth in my profile (correctly I think) and this sites computer entered my age (I think) I'm flattered by the way. If it gives me more years.....I'll take 'em! Best Regards Rick

fffffg · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2005, 03:22:04 PM »

ok, lets see, you need hire a lawyer to see if you can purchase the firearm,, a contractor to build you a powder bunker,, a warden to explain the hunting regulations, and a surveyer to tell where its leagal to hunt, and a vet to tell you what game parts you must keep and what you can throw away.. i think im beginning to understand what our government is trying to do... dave..

DanielWGriggs · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2005, 04:08:30 AM »

Dave you have not even begun to understand what our government(s) are trying to accompolish. I love my Country.

lostid · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2005, 04:17:17 PM »

Quote from: fffffg

i am an ffl dealer .. dave.

5fg started this thread with the above statement.

Man. And to think someone with license is so confused.

ain't it.

spitpatch · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2005, 04:35:43 AM »

Lostid wrote about 5fg

Man. And to think someone with license is so confused. ain't it.

Lostid, If everybody had the knowledge you seem to have there would be no need for GBO. We... that don't know everything... humbly ask for your forgiveness. Holding a FFL in no way makes one an expert on guns or an expert in the law. I'd be willing to bet that the people who wrote the gun laws are confused by them. This forum is for helping others.......not railing on them. Speaking Ill of people is easy......helping is a little harder.

fffffg · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2005, 05:47:30 PM »

to give you guys the complexity of the gun laws. i once called the atf in minneapolis (i always call there becoues you can get different answers from the two different agents here).. a lady whos husband was in prison brought in a machine gun that had the barrel welded shut and the action was totaly gone. i wanted to buy it and put it on my wall in myshop.. . the person at minneapolis i was talking to said to stay away from it.. that it was probably a working machine gun.. as the barrel can be cut or replaced, and the action can be put back in.. he said they once prosecuted a guy who had a machine gun that was cut in half at the action.. were probably talking about serios time in prison here.. .. one other law that confuses alot of people here is that if you are selling guns in montana you can only sell to people of age and not felons etc, and that are residents of montana or in contiguous states.. what that means is the state must border montana.. ffl dealers sell to out of staters all the time that do not have laws agains them from buying here.. we cannot break another states law.. the book that describes the other states laws is about 1 1/2 inches thick and written in leagle terms.. but the point is if we sell to a non contigous state resedent we break state law and not federal law.. some dealers , even ffl dealers in montana dont know about the state law, or ignore it so they can make the sale.. the seroisness of this is that cities have ordances that dont alow you to have a knife with a blade over 2 1/2 inches.. so you go to visit your mom, take your boy scout knife have a scuffle at theneighborhood bar with some guy and the police arrest you for a concealed weapon when they find the knife.. your then a felon, spend alot of money on lawyers, get some time in jail and youl never, never, ever be alowed to own, buy or hunt with a firearm again.. dave.....

captchee · « **Reply #18 on:** December 06, 2005, 03:02:23 AM »

Now I could be talking out my back side here but as I understand it federal law is only a base and can not supersede state law . However state laws can go past the federal ruling and be much stricter .
With BP while the feds say 50 some states say less and even local governments can say even less 15 .
This is why from what I under stand that states like California , with much of the popularity of modern muzzle loading firearms are placing traditional muzzleloaders under the same FFA guidelines .
as in the past we should watch becouse where california go many others soon follow .

any word on when the new quake will come and end all of that ?