Comparing center fire calibers in the Handi.

[GrampaMike]

Comparing center fire calibers in the Handi.

I decided on a winter project to compare all of the “Handi” calibers.  My output will be a book of all possible loads and information based on the Handi barrels lengths.  For my data source (loads), will use all of the common reloading manuals, since that is what is on hand.

Where I need help is with the “Criteria” for comparing, also what two calibers to start with.

Criteria for comparisons (in no particular order):

1.  Maximum Point Blank Range.  I will be using the military “unofficial” vital-zone diameter of 7 inches (diameter of a terrorist head).

2.  Energy left at the “Maximum Point Blank Range”.

3.  Energy is either Kinetic or Momentum based figures, and/or both; or something else if anyone has a good idea.

4.  Recoil (using 8 lbs as the average weight of a Handi plus scope, mount and rings).

What else would be good?

I know!  I have too much time on my hands.

Michael

[mitchell]

What else would be good?

how about remains of P-dog after hit??


this would be a interesting report to read when you get it done.

[safetysheriff]

hey gramps'

how's about giving us velocities for the first 400 yds' and remaining velocity in the bullet at its max' point blank range?

some of the .270 loads would be over 315 yds' while the .30-06 would not do it as readily.   but that's only part of the story.   if the velocities are 2100fps at the max' pbr' then i'd consider the load good for deer, for example, if the bullet is of proper construction.   and, yes, i do understand that hardcast bullets don't need that kind of velocity if of sufficient caliber.....etc.etc.

just my suggestions,

ss'

[Woodbutcher]

GrampaMike:
 I'm glad you have enough time to think up such a great idea!
 The criteria you selected sound pretty complete!
Perhaps the '06 would be the place to start, and I would like to see the results on the 280.             Woodbutcher

[GrampaMike]

OK, I will be starting with the 30-06 Springfield.  The first data source will be the Sierra #5 (2003) manual.

There are "27" .308 Sierra bullets ranging from 110-240 grains.

This will a big enough sample to let me know what I am in for.

Second cartridge is still open.

Any bets on which Sierra 308 bullet will have the MPBR (Max Point-Blank Range)?

Thanks for the comments, Mike.

[mitchell]

Any bets on which Sierra 308 bullet will have the MPBR (Max Point-Blank Range)?

.

how about the 125 spt???




as for a second cartridge how about the 223???

[Brett]

OK, I will be starting with the 30-06 Springfield.  The first data source will be the Sierra #5 (2003) manual....

The second cartridge is still open.

Thanks for the comments, Mike.

I would like to see how the .280 Rem. (7mm Express) stacks up against the old 06.   The 7mm should give you another couple dozen bullets plus to chart.  :lol:

[safetysheriff]

Any bets on which Sierra 308 bullet will have the MPBR (Max Point-Blank Range)?

Thanks for the comments, Mike.

gramps'

it might just be, of all things, a fmj-bt like they loaded in the military of approx' 147 gr's.    some of them are 'very slippery'.   i was surprised to read of their bc'.

take care,

ss'

[GrampaMike]

Mitchell.  I don’t have a formula for the bursting radius of exploding P-Dogs, but that would be fun.

SafetySheriff.  Yes, remaining velocity and energy at 0, 100, 200, 300, 400 and MPBR is a good criteria to be included.  This first cut will include only jacketed bullets, if it goes well, I will try cast bullets.

So far I have 12 of the 27 Sierra bullets inputed.  This is going to be a big project.  Next caliber will be the 280 Remington.

[Brett]

...So far I have 12 of the 27 Sierra bullets inputed.  This is going to be a big project.  Next caliber will be the 280 Remington.

 :yeah:  :agree:

[GrampaMike]

Current Calibers to be included.  Missing some barrel lengths.  Thanks for any info or corrections.

204 Ruger 22, 24
22 Hornet 20, 22
223 Remington 20, 22, 24
22-250 Remington 22, 24         
243 Winchester 20, 22, 24         
25-06 Remington 26      
270 Winchester 22, 23            
7x57mm Mauser               
7mm-08 Remington 22   
280 Remington 26      
7x64mm Brenneke               
30-30 Winchester 22      
308 Winchester 22               
30-06 Springfield 22, 23            
7.62x39mm 22               
357 Magnum 22               
357 Maximum            
35 Whelen   22               
38-55 Winchester 28   
44 Magnum 22               
444 Marlin                  
45-70 Government 22, 32
450 Marlin    22               
500 S&W 22               

Some have rechamber or rechamber & rebore jobs on their Handi’s.  Would like to include these but need to know the barrel lengths.

338-06
405 Winchester
445 Supermag

Thanks, Mike

[Fred M]

GrampaMike,

My 257 Roberts has a 24" barrel.  

At present I am working on a new Handi caliber. A conversion from 223 to a 6x47 a sort of semi wild cat using an unaltered 222 Rem Magnum case with only the neck expanded. If that don't pan out I then will ream it to 6mm Rem. or a 6mm Super Pooper.

[GrampaMike]

Thanks Fred, how could I forget your pretty 257 Roberts.

Good luck on that "6mm Fred Super"

[quickdtoo]

Mike, the 405 Winchester has a 28" barrel, .338-06 is 26", the 7x64 Brenneke is 24", and the original .35 Whelen Ultra is 26". Thanks for your work!! :agree: :agree: :agree:

[GrampaMike]

Thanks Quick.

I would never guessed the orginal 35 Whelen was a 26".

[GrampaMike]

Just finished the first data source for the 30-06.  Going to do the 280 Remington loads next.

The database now has 27,518 loads for the 30-06.

Thought of another criteria for comparison, "efficiency per grain of powder" that I read about a few months ago in some magazine, can't remember which one, but I wrote the formula down in my notes.

[bajabill]

wow, this is going to be a lot of data to wrestle.  I like PointBlank because I can control the variables.  Once you get BC, MV, scope height figured out, you can compare anything you want.  And, I have never duplicated load manual velocities in my measurements.

Sorry, not trying to rain on your parade.  I just think the amount of data can be more confusing than clarifying.

[GrampaMike]

“Bajabill”, you are not raining on my parade, because I know how much data is involved, at least I think I do.  Thanks for your concern.  I like PointBlank too, but no database attached to speak of, so I am writing my own software for this project.

For comparing, I will be using the mid-point load between “Starting” and “Max” because in real-life we seem to end up nearer the mid-point than the MAX loads.

[bajabill]

when I downloaded pointblank it had a list of bullets and BCs,  I imported that into EXCEL.  Its not complete, I just add to it as I find bullets I use or may use.

[GrampaMike]

Current Status is 27,518 loads for the 30-06 Springfield and 9,360 loads for the 280 Remington.  So far only Sierra bullets are used, 26 for the 30-06 and 12 for the 280.

5 different criteria are being compared.  
1, Kinetic Energy at the muzzle.  
2. Energy generated per grain of powder.
3. Recoil Energy for an 8 pound Handi.
4. Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR) based on a 7 inch vital zone.
5. Kinetic Energy left at the MPBR.

Each of the 5 criteria has equal weight of 20%, only because I don’t know which criteria should more or less weight.  Any comments or insight would be appreciated, I want to get this right.

Top 3 so far.
1)   30-06, Sierra 125 grain (#2120), MPBR of 324 yards.
2)   30-06, Sierra 150 grain (#2115), MPBR of 308 yards.
3)   30-06, Sierra 150 grain (#2190), MPBR of 307 yards.


Bajabil: I did the same thing with the PointBlank bullet list, pretty good list, just wish the bullet lengths were included.