Ejector help wanted

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I took my .308 Ultra down, cleaned it, and then decided to do the modifications from ejector to extractor (as per Fred M's instructions from his website).  I did what I thought looked like a good job on the ejector, but when I put it all back together, I found that my extractor doesn't extract at all.  I must say that my ejector didn't look like the ones on Fred's site, as I would call them "humpbacks" for lack of a better term.  They are not milled straight like the ones in the pictures there.  Mine had a nice curvature on the belly, with a straight back.  

It will extract a sized/unfired cartridge, but one that had been fired in this gun will not budge now.  

Give me ideas on what went wrong.

[Fred M]

Bubba
I don't recall writing up a conversion from ejector to extractor. I have seen it here described on the forum. Myself I don't like the extractor and I am happy with the ejector. In my web page I have mentioned polishing and honing the ejector and installing a stronger spring.

Out in cold weather hunting, if you need a fast second shot the ejector is unbeatable, no fumbling around trying to pick an emty out with cold hands.

I know there are different shapes of ejectors, because I send for one from Brownell and it is different and doesn't fit. I reworked the existing one to make it work. Duce said he had a curved one? Better find out from H&R and get another ejector, polish it and the race way and leave it alone.
A bit heavier spring helps too, or slide a smaller spring inside the big one.

My manual notch in the back of the barrel is not too well received here, but it works flawless and does not in any way impede functioning of the rifle. It provides quick and easy removal of stuck cases.

[quickdtoo]

This thread has all the ejector to extractor conversions I've seen....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=77522

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

Fred, first off my apoplogies.  I realise now that I was looking at another sites instructions for the conversion.  Sorry.  



All I would like to know is if there is any way by doing the conversion I could have inadvertently lessened the tensions on the extractor/ejector spring.  Like I said before it worked, but now there seems to be 1/2 the tension on the ejector system as there was before.    I did get everything back together correctly, I'm pretty sure.  Not too much to mess up in there.

Any other ideas on what I did wrong?

[Fred M]

Bubba.
The ejector spring is 0.960" long. The wire size is 0.036 a pretty tough spring. If you can find a BBB steel pellet 0.190" from a goose or duck hunter you can glue the pellet to the end of the spring with 5min.epoxy.

This will make the spring 1.110" long and will increase the compression of the spring. I know it makes a difference in ejection.

When you grind away the sear block your ejector travels another 0.169" further to the back relaxing the spring by as much as 2-3 coils. That is why
you feel the ejector so much softer.

But as you push in the ejector flush with the barrel face it should have the same tension as before. Adding the pellet will improve the tension. by nearly as much as you lost. Just make sure the ejector is flush after putting on the pellet before you put things back together.

[MSP Ret]

"My manual notch in the back of the barrel is not too well received here"

Fred, I don't know about the others and can't speak for them, but I think your manual emergency extractor notch is a GREAT idea, inexpensive, easy, simple, and foolproof. It is an excellent solution to an existing and all to common problem. I think it's great and feel it should be incorporated by all who experience occasional stuck cases....if you never have to use it it's OK also. Like all good solutions to a problem, it's there if you need it and there if you don't, unobtrusive and it never asks for anything!!! Congratulations!!!!....<><.... :grin:

[quickdtoo]

I agree 100%, well said MSP!! :wink:

[Fred M]

MSP Ret
Andy
Thank you for the compliment. You are among the very few persons  persons to make favorable comments about the notch. It is very refreshing to hear of such comments, rather then hearing from Mr. A.R. Sole for me to quit writing nonsense. and telling me what and what not I can contribute to a thread.  :-D  

This summer when I went out shooting gophers with the 257R, banging away 50-60 rounds of ammo each time. The chamber gets dirty with some blow by with the loads not quite up to snuff.

The cases I used for that were well used and some on the end of there useful life. Stuck cases are quite common under these circumstances. I have already replaced about 25 cases which showed the partially black ring .65" above the base an indication of the forth coming case head separation. After 8-9 reloads these cases are kaput, one more re-load may part them in twain.

Of course these kind of cases I never use for hunting, only new once fired cases are used for that and they never stick in a smooth, dry, clean and oil free chamber. Mind you I only used six of these this fall, four deer a moose and a coyote one shot each. No stuck cases, ha.

Also that wee screw driver is always handy and is part of the Handi. Like American Express never go without it. You know this little screw driver came with a S&W Mod 29 44 mag  in a fine velvet lined box. It was the first S&W 44 Magnum revolver to enter Canada in 1957 imported by Cochran & Dunlop in Toronto.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I'm going to try the BB fix on that extractor/ejector addtion Fred.  Thank you.  

And I'm another voice for the reliablilty of the notch in the barrel.   I don't feel there is anything out of bounds with an idea like that.  I WILL be putting one in my barrel when I get a bit of time in the next month or so.  That should put an end to my sticking problems with this barrel.  A very simple and elegant solution to a common problem is what the notch is.


And one other question Fred, smoothing up the ejector will do nothing but aid in the process of pulling out cartridges from the chamber, correct?  This is also on my list of projects for this barrel.

[Stickfigure]

Fred M
I think the manual notch is a great idea. I wouldn't be suprised if NEF adopted your idea in the future and incorporated it on all the barrels.

Sofar, my handi has performed flawless. I've followed all the stickies about cleaning, lapping, and polishing.

I found out today that the ejector is quite energized in my 30-30. It shot the spent brass about 5 ft behind me :eek: . That was quite a suprise for this first time single shot owner. :oops:

[Fred M]

Bubba.

And one other question Fred, smoothing up the ejector will do nothing but aid in the process of pulling out cartridges from the chamber, correct?

You are correct my friend. It reduces the friction and gives the ejector more speed. If you have some Moly powder rub some into the metal and in the race way. Do not use oil it collects dirt. Flitz the chamber too.

[quickdtoo]

I wouldn't be suprised if NEF adopted your idea in the future and incorporated it on all the barrels.

It will be a moot issue on new barrels sooner or later, all barrel will come with a mechanical extractor, instead of the spring drive ejector, which eliminates stuck brass. It would tear a chunk out of the rim if it's stuck bad enough.....or the barrel won't break open! :eek:

[Fred M]

We could have the best of both worlds. Like on a Charles Daily O/U it has a little switch on the side were you can select either an extractor or an ejector. Well ejector or extractor just can't please everybody.

Quick is right the notch will not be incorporated on a Handi. H&R will not provide for an option either after all the squawking about the ejectors.

[MSP Ret]

An extractor is not a good plan for a hunting gun, and doubly bad in cold weather and worse again if you have cloves on!!!. I prefer to keep my guns clean and "tuned" and have a shell ejector(s) for a hunting gun. I predict at some point after NEF/H&R goes to all extractors the older ejector style barrels will begin to sell at a premium for hunters. It was very easy to convert an ejector to an extractor, much more difficult to convert an extrator to an ejector. I am afraid we hunters will be the losers here....<><.... :cry:

[MSP Ret]

An extractor is not a good plan for a hunting gun, and doubly bad in cold weather and worse again if you have gloves on!!!. I prefer to keep my guns clean and "tuned" and have a shell ejector(s) for a hunting gun. I predict at some point after NEF/H&R goes to all extractors the older ejector style barrels will begin to sell at a premium for hunters. It was very easy to convert an ejector to an extractor, much more difficult to convert an extractor to an ejector. I am afraid we hunters will be the losers here....<><.... :cry:

[quickdtoo]

I don't see it that way, it's real easy to just swivel the muzzle up and let the spent case fall to the ground, gloves or otherwise, I checked this out with the .22-250 when I was at the range last time, it works just fine. Just isn't as natural as the ejector, but even us old guys can learn new tricks. :wink:  But it sure beats the possibility of a case stuck in the chamber when you least want it.

[MSP Ret]

Quick, I love you like a brother but let me see if I understand this correctly, first we want extractors because the spring loaded ejectors don't have enough power to push the ocasional case from a dirty chamber (it has never happened to me by the way) and now we expect the case to fall out from gravity when we tip the gun upside down?  Now I am confused....<><.... :?

[quickdtoo]

Once the extractor lifts the case out of the chamber about ¼", it's loose enough to fall out when the barrel is pointed up. :wink:

[MSP Ret]

Hey Quick old buddy, look at the time, it's 12:02 here, we have been talking about this for 2 days, we started on Sunday and now it's Monday!! I'm off to bed...Good night to all....<><....

[quickdtoo]

Or, as Leftoverdj put it...

Extractor need not be slower than ejectior.  You just drop the action down rather than the barrel Barrel is pointed up and the case drops free as it is extracted.

Certainly a lot faster than digging out a cleaning rod and putting it together to get a stuck case out.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=57514&highlight=extractor

G'night!!! :wink:

[.308]

but even us old guys can learn new tricks. :wink:  But it sure beats the possibility of a case stuck in the chamber when you least want it.

Exactly, I agree with that 100%. That's what I was trying to say on another thread when I referred to myself as an 'old dog'. I liked both fixes, but will do neither unless it's needed. All of mine sling 'em into the next county if I ain't ready. BTW Tim, how do you remember all that stuff, you must have a photogenic memory, or something like that.  :eek: I have an advanced case of C.R.S. so it's good if I remember what day it is. :cry: Photographic is the correct term, just messin'. :wink:

[quickdtoo]

I can remember all kinds of stuff that's not really important, but when it comes to things that are important, I can have CRS as bad as the next person,  worse if you listen to my wife! :oops: And she thinks I have some other kinda graphic mind, occasionally!! :eek:  

I just checked my .204 Ruger, the extractor slips up behind the rim farther and doesn't drop down enough for a spent case to fall out. I think it may take a little honing of the extractor claw or body to make em so they'll let the spent case fall out on some calibers. Doesn't make much difference on the .22-250 or .204, though.

The rimfires are the calibers that are gonna be a pain if they make them all extractors, too!  

[Duce]

folks: Fred referred to my post saying my extractor was curved. My meaning was the when it was made the extractor claw, the part that actually pushes the case, was warped or curved, causing it to bind in the raceway.
As far as this ejector/extractor, on the barrel lug there's 2 roll pins, one the extractor/ejector latch pivots on. The other sticks out about an 1/8", pulling it down causes it to unlatch and let's the claw to spring back. Has anyone drilled and tapped the lug and used a set screw to lock the latch open giving you an extractor, while backing it off and letting the latch work giving you an ejector. Best Of Both Worlds: <>< Duce

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

Bubba.



You are correct my friend. It reduces the friction and gives the ejector more speed. If you have some Moly powder rub some into the metal and in the race way. Do not use oil it collects dirt. Flitz the chamber too.

Never thought of Flitzing the chamber...duh!!!  Thank you.   We had tried some form of polishing the chamber, but the work didn't seem to make any difference.  (our form of polishing:  take one of the cases that stuck, drill it out, chuck in a drill, put some polishing compound on it, a dab of oil, and slowly turn it in the chamber with the drill.)

The next place that I'm going with the polishing will be done in the neck area, as my gunsmith thinks this is where it looks like the cases are hanging up.  I'm going to use compound (Flitz) on a mop and go at it that way.  Let me know if this should work, taking ample time and slow work, of course.

[Fred M]

Duce.

Has anyone drilled and tapped the lug and used a set screw to lock the latch open giving you an extractor, while backing it off and letting the latch work giving you an ejector. Best Of Both Worlds:

This will not work. Because the small plunger and spring would be depressed all the time and wont allow the ejector to move up and down to get into the case extractor groove or under rim and drop down for loading access.

So it seams you can have a spring loaded extractor by removing the sear block or leave it as is and have an ejector. My choice is for the later which has worked for me by polishing the ejector and race way, flitz the chamber and install the manual notch.

The notch ony comes in play with worn brass, dirty chamber. dirty brass, overloaded cartridges and grit in the ejector or carbon and powder in the system from a case head separation.