My .30-30 Win. is Dead

[myarmor]

After looking into this a little more, I can't help but feel a little uneasy. I am no expert handloader, only a beginner, but still the shoulder expansion of the original, to this new "Improved" one seems a bit much. Along with a few other issues, concern me as well.
Taking an original chambered barrel and modifing it to shoot another cartridge is serious. Many possibile mishaps or minute miscalculations can lead to serious problems, or-and hopefully NOT- harm to the shooter or others.
  I just hope EXTRA CAUTION is used here. I don't want any of our friends here to get hurt doing a "small procedure".

-Aaron

[safetysheriff]

m'a'

the difference in this case, since it's a rimmed cartridge and he watched closely to keep from cutting into the rim, is that it doesn't headspace on the shoulder and should therefore be similar to a fire-forming procedure used by wildcatters over the years.   it is possible to create a problem, SO a go- no go gauge, and a 'field' gauge Would Be Good to use for these projects, but he will hopefully be good to go if he watched carefully.

if it was me, i'd tie it to a Neighbors bumper parked out on the street somewhere and test-fire it after dark.   if the rifle and the bumper BOTH look good after the test, then i'd let one of my co-workers borrow it and see if they came back to work.   you know, something along those lines! :-D

all i'm tryin' to say is that sooner or later, if you're going to make an omelette, you've GOT to break a few eggs :shock:  :shock:

take care,

ss'  

ps:  let's be honest now, with these re-chambering jobs we should be passing around the gauges as well as the reamers -- for Safety's Sake.

[.308]

I'm still here. Thanks ss' for the heads up. I did like you said, me and the bumber are still here. The bumper and I are A O.K. I mean it. I ain't kidding. All limbs are still attached.  

Seriously myarmor, there's no 'guesswork' going on here. Ackley did all the 'work' years ago on this particular chambering, I think it was in the late 1940's or early 50's. Yes the .30-30 AI has been around about as long as I have, maybe longer. Check this out: http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w3030ack.html

Would it make y'all feel better if I rented the headspace gauges.  :eek:   I don't mind a bit, but doubt it'll tell us anything we don't already know. I'll gladly do it and give you a report.  

Edit: As ss' said I was real careful, did not cut the existing rim cut a tall. So I'm confident that my chamber is right w/o using the headspace gauges. However, if this had been a rechamber involving a 'rimless' cartridge which headspaces on the shoulder no way I'd have done it w/o the gauges. Probably wouldn't have done it myself anywho, woulda had a gunsmith do it on a lathe. I've never had my hands on a reamer for a rimless cartridge, to see what one looks like, and what lets you know when to stop cutting?? I've done 3 rimmed cartridges now, and about to do my 4th.

I finally got around to fireforming a few more cases. I reported that the cases shrink in length when fireforming, approx. .015". But I got about .003" back when I sized the fireformed cases. Getting a little ahead of myself, anywho,

Next step is resizing the fireformed brass. I set my f/l size die to size the neck and come approx. .030" short of contacting the shoulder. I tried them in the chamber, no problems.

I primed (ww), charged (3031), and seated bullets (Sierra 150). Here's a little factiod that may raise an eyebrow or two. My o/l for this round is 2.820". I'm just barely bumping the lands at 2.830", so I backed off .010" for these loads. Lee says the round should have an o/l just a bit over 2.5", 2.550" if memory serves. Well anyhow the rounds chamber fine, and we'll see how they shoot tomorrow. Wish me well, I can't use the neighbor's bumper in the daytime.   More to follow. :grin:

May I say many fallicitations to you ss'.

Yours Truly, "The Prof"

[Ditchdigger]

I know a guy that fireforms his brass by primer and a little powder,and then stick's the mouth of the case into a bar of soap. He then goes to his back door and fires it. He says it works perfect everytime. At least you could save some money on bullets.  Digger

[bladerunner]

308,I like EVERYBODY,but I'm kinda partial to Georgians...sooo.you all be careful now,ya hear?

[.308]

I know a guy that fireforms his brass by primer and a little powder,and then stick's the mouth of the case into a bar of soap.    Digger

Hmmm, I wonder if he's using a quick pistol powder?? That sure would be handy. Specially when you're gonna do a few hundred. Thanks for the head up Digger.

I'm kinda partial to Georgians

Blade I am too, specially my wife's husband.  Honestly you shouldn't worry.  I did a lot of research before I took this on. I spoke with the folks where I rented the reamer by phone and email. It was my call not to rent the gauges, but tomorrow I gonna call them and rent the gauges for this one and my next one. Then hopefully if ss' don't come up with something else to start folks worrying again,  :eek:  all will be fine and no more worrying. He can't help it, he's a product of his environment, and he brings his work home with him. :grin:

What'd I say earlier ss'. Something like 'Lighten up.'  

BOY i should rechamber my 30-30 barrel.i havent shot it for some time now and this rechamber would bring some life into it again.i dont know what i would use it for because i live in the shotgun zone here in Michigan but it would be a nice range gun and maybe a yote killer.

Jeff, have you seen this article?: http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t28/
You probably have. Since you're a 'tender owner and already have the .30-30 Win. barrel, it would be a breeze. You'll hear some of the negative talk about the conversion, of course.  :?  But you know about conversions already, don't you?

This thing looks like a stretched out .30 Herrett, which is basically what it is. My O/L in the Handi with a 150 gr. Sierra spitzer is 2.820 inches. Sharp shoulder, little body taper. I like it. Should be a real varmint hammer with the light .30 caliber boolits in your Contender. Yotes beware. :biggun:

[quickdtoo]

I found this on fire forming with the method Digger mentioned.

http://www.6mmbr.com/6PPC.html

I had a link on fire forming in the garage using the same method, but I lost it.

[myarmor]

Great site Tim, thanks a bunch.
Some cool info in there.

Edit- but still the task of reaming, is what raises more questions to me. I mean by hand, you can't actually be 100% sure it's level. Only -as I spoke to a machinest today said- can be done with a lathe. Only saying I personally won't be doing it. No offense to those that are.

[.308]

Thanks for that info Tim. A case full of Bullseye and wax. That oughta work. Like Digger said, it saves bullets.  

myarmor,
We'll just have to wait and see how my hand job turns out. Your machinist friend is mistaken, it can be done by hand. tom barthel did it and so did I. Sure if I'd had a lathe I'd have used it instead. It would still have been a DIY project, and easier too. If I had used a lathe the pilot on the reamer still has to follow the existing bore. The fireformed brass comes out of the new chamber very concentric, what more can you ask? My chamber must be 'level' or straight. :wink:

I'm happy so far. My fireforming loads are going in the same hole at 25 yds., and as soon as I get some decent weather I'll start working up loads.  

[Leftoverdj]

.308'

greetings, salutations, and felicitations!

good to see another wildcatter/hotrodder at work on a Handi'.    

please, check to see that -- by using that new reamer -- that you do not have an excessive headspace condition for the use of original .30-30's you want to fire in that chamber.   it is something you may have been warned about, so i'm just offering a friendly 'heads-up'.    

it's possible to overdo it!

remember, safety first.

best regards,

ss'

Most of us know that the .30-30 is a rimmed case and that you cannot affect the headspace without cutting into the rim recess.

[Graybeard]

I have posted on this subject many many times in the past. Primarily on the TC Forums where the advice fell mostly on deaf ears. I suspect it will do the same here but I've been asked to comment so I will.

Guys there are several things you really need to know regarding such a project as converting any chambering to an AI.

First is that the barrel is supposed to be cut off at the breech end and set back if you want a TRUE AI chamber. You cannot just run a reamer into the barrel and out pop an AI if the original chamber is of the same name ie., in this case a .30-30 converted to .30-30 AI. If you just run the reamer in the result is NOT a true AI chamber and the headspace cannot help but be off.

Second there are no free rides. There is no magic in an AI chamber whether done right or butchered. You will in most cases increase case capacity no more than 4 to 5 grains and not always that depending on the orginal round. In the case of the .30-30 to .30-30 AI the increase is at most that 4 to 5 grains. I've measured the cases both before and after conversion to see.

The rule is that you will gain about 1% velocity increase for a 4% increase in case capacity assuming pressure is the same in both. So do the math and see what you can safely expect to gain. NOT MUCH.

Thirdly, most of the time there is darn little pressure tested or book loading data for the new round. There are exceptions but the .30-30 AI is not one of them. I'm aware of no pressure tested data and other than Ackley's own work no real book data other than one or maybe two magazine articles. All were done in lever action rifles and none of the data was pressured tested.

Folks ignore the laws of Physics and go crazy when they get a new AI chambered barrel. They want 250-300 fps increase and expect to get it. Many claim to do just that. And no doubt they do. But the same velocity could have been obtained in the originaly chambering. All they had to do was run the pressures up to proof level loads which is what they are now doing without realizing it in the AI chamber.

Fourth the cobbled up, butchered up chamber you get when you don't set back the barrel might be dangerous even with reasonable pressure loads because the chamber is not cut correctly and the dies you buy aren't correct for a chamber other than a true AI chamber.

Now do as you like. Ignore if you wish. But don't say you've not been warned. Anyone telling you that you can get a true AI chamber with a reamer only in an NEF barrel either doesn't understand what is required or they are lying to you. Anyone who tells you that you can safely with SAAMI pressures get more than about 100 fps extra again don't know what's going on or they are lying to you. Anymore than that comes at increase pressures.

[safetysheriff]

.308'
please, check to see that -- by using that new reamer -- that you do not have an excessive headspace condition for the use of original .30-30's you want to fire in that chamber.  
it's possible to overdo it!
remember, safety first.
best regards,
ss'

Most of us know that the .30-30 is a rimmed case and that you cannot affect the headspace without cutting into the rim recess.

leftovers'

i think you are in over your head.  

you said, "you cannot affect the headspace without cutting into the rim recess."   that's not the point, is it?    the point is, you DON'T WANT TO AFFECT THE HEADSPACE and you don't want an AI chamber that is capable of  allowing a sidewall separation/etc.. with standard .30-30 ammo'.      If you remember, that was part of the premise behind properly forming an Ackley Improved chamber........using either original-chamber or Improved-chamber ammo' in one rifle.  

graybeard seems to think in his post below yours that your assumption is way off and that " the headspace can't help but be off"!   i'm thinkin' that graybeard has seen some of these rimmed-cartridge reamers run too far into a barrel even though You seem to think "Most of us know......"  

"Most" is not good enough.      

........and graybeards concern re: problems arising is actually justified in MOST CASES, though i doubt that this is Always a failure without barrel setback.  

I know of two Ruger M77 MkII's with such tight chambers in 7mm Rem' mag' that they could probably be improved without barrel setback.   it's amazing how tight one of them is!    

the real problem with a project like this, as graybeard said, is that it is possible to develop unsafe headspace....with various / disturbing results.  

thanks for stopping by, dj'.

take care,

ss'    :wink:

PS to the group at large: the original intent of an AI' chamber was to create a 'crush' fit of regular/standard ammo' in a firearm so modified.  that would be allowed by the sharp Ackley shoulder pressing against the neck-shoulder juncture of the original chambering's ammo.   that slight pressure would actually eliminate one source of headspace problems.   the Improved chamber is obviously a little bit on the 'short' side of a SAAMI spec'.   that's why Ackley did barrel setbacks AND achieved good results.

[jason280]

I see your thread is taking the same turn as mine... :?

A crush fit is not rquired for the .30-30 AI.  Let me repeat this.  A crush fit is not required in a .30-30 AI.  A lot has been made about the headspacing issues of firing factory .30-30 ammo in an AI chamber.  However, as in this case, I don't think that's going to be a concern.  I don't think its .308's requirement to be able to shoot factory ammo, just as it wasn't mine.  It would be nice, of course, but we are after a custom chamber in our Handi rifles and we are prepared to make the accommodations necessary for it.

I have spoken with two separate gunsmiths who ream for the .30-30 AI, and neither has stated the necessity for a crush fit on a cartridge with a rim.  Matter of fact, they both stated that they have encountered zero problems when doing the reaming on Contenders and Handi rifles.

[safetysheriff]

jason'

while a crush fit with a rimmed cartridge is not as important necessarily as with the other types of brass, the concept is worth 'noising abroad' for the simple fact that if an Improved reamer is not of proper dimensions, and if the chamber is not properly gauged, graybeard's concerns could be realized in a rimmed-cartridge chamber with brass stretching to the 'splitting' point or wearing out early, or developing incipient case head separations.   yes, the rimmed cartridge might be somewhat easier to work with in this case, but it's easy enough to exceed its headspace or 'shoulder space' as well.

in the April 2004 edition of RifleShooter there was a headspace article wherein the .303 British rifles (firing rimmed cartridges) being loosely headspaced developed serious problems....and the author has seen this elsewhere where headspace was good but 'shoulder space' allowed overworking of brass that was being reloaded.   the article and the author's brief lament about such hazards is worth our review, in my opinion.    let's be honest: the use of belted magnums with shoulders being setback repeatedly -- even in cartridges that headspace on the belt -- has lead to many problems over the years.  

there are a lot of 'gunsmiths' that aren't worth the powder it would take to send them to their judgement.   i've met some of them........and it's amazing how ill-conceived is their understanding of firearms.   you may have met some 'gunsmiths' like that, too.  

ss'

[.308]

Sometimes it's so hard to tell which side of the fence folks are on. Isn't it? No offense.

.308'
good to see another wildcatter/hotrodder at work on a Handi'.    
please, check to see that -- by using that new reamer -- that you do not have an excessive headspace condition  ss'

the difference in this case, since it's a rimmed cartridge and he watched closely to keep from cutting into the rim, is that it doesn't headspace on the shoulder and should therefore be similar to a fire-forming procedure used by wildcatters over the years.

Here's a little quote  for you ss', since you like some of mine. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive". Again, no offense, Sir. :-D One more thing. I told some folks the other day about how you'd changed, like maybe you'd turned over a new leaf. Folks, I take all that back and anything nice I had to say about him. Oh, and no offense, Sir. I am deeply hurt with you, cause I thought we were gonna be buds. Felicitations and goodbye to you sir.


Jason, so you went to one smith and he told you it could be done, then to be sure you sought a second opinion, and you got the same answer. Kinda like getting a second opinion from another doctor or two before brain surgery. Where're the brain surgeons or rocket scientists when you need them.  BTW, I take it you're not familiar with ss's little game. Watch and learn. He'll be calling me out on this one. But I'll ignore him. Just watch.

G/B, Well, I see you've been reading again.  :wink:    I appreciate your concerns.   Ignore may be a bit strong, but I assure you I know whom I should ignore here on this forum by now. Let's just say I don't pay attention to some of the folks. :wink:

[jason280]

there are a lot of 'gunsmiths' that aren't worth the powder it would take to send them to their judgement. i've met some of them........and it's amazing how ill-conceived is their understanding of firearms. you may have met some 'gunsmiths' like that, too.

No, what's amazing is how quick people are to challenge the legitimacy of a gunsmith they don't even know.  

For the record, the second gunsmith I contacted was recommended by the techs at Sierra Bullets.  Actually, the tech at Sierra didn't think the crush fit was necessary either, but I didn't include him as he's not a gunsmith.  


.308, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask the same question I asked in my original thread.  Does anyone, other than .308, actually own a firearm in .30-30 AI?

[bladerunner]

308,PLEASE get some gauges,a cronograph and someone to test the pressures,go to the range and give us the results so this can be laid to rest   :-D  :-D  :-D  

[JPH45]

308, There are three kinds of people in the world, thinkers, doers, and commentators. Kudos to you for being a DOER. With a rimmed case, a proper reamer is going to work just fine, all else is so much noise. You can fire form those with 10 grains of Unique and a cotton ball. You may need to adjust the charge a few grains +/-, Start low and move up a bit at a time till you have a formed shoulder in the right place. This works forming 30-30 brass to 38-55 too. Be sure to hold the barrel straight up when firing.The commentators are going to do what they do best, Keep doin' what your your doin' best

[Leftoverdj]

.308, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask the same question I asked in my original thread.  Does anyone, other than .308, actually own a firearm in .30-30 AI?

I have a Marlin in .25-35 Imp. Same deal, but necked down to .25 cal.

I've also done my fair share of rechamberings, barrel changes, and headspace adjustments. The headspacing of rimmed cartridges is controlled by the rim, and they don't even have to have a shoulder, much less one that is a crush fit.

[Rifle Builder]

 I stop in once in a while and seldom post.

Disclosure: 308 is a client of mine (rented the reamer from my business).

Gray Beard was about 98% correct in his evaluation of improved cases.  I am not going to debate efficiency or ballistics though.  What interests me is all the concern about headspace.

Headspacing Rimmed cases:

Gages should be used to make sure the factory chamber is correctly headspaced.  If you do not have gages it is possible to use factory 30-30 cases (for the project we are discussing) as a 'go' gage, for a 'no-go' gage simply place one layer of masking tape on the back of the case, carefully trim off any excess so that it will not cause a false reading by binding on the bolt face.  If you want to double check the masking tape should be about .004" thick (same as the difference between go and no-go).

You see rimmed cases headspace on the rim, for the uninitiated that is the distance from the bolt face to the bottom of the rim cut on the chamber.  Assuming that the rifle is in good condition and was correctly headspaced by the factory then reaming for an AI chamber is simple.  Gages are always a good idea but are not absolutely needed for  a rimmed cartridge.  In the case of a break action single shot there is no reasonable way to set the barrel back as is preferable in AI chamberings.  So the best method is to use Dikem (machinist blue) to paint the rimcut, when the rimcutter of the chamber reamers marks the Dikem you are done.  It's that simple.

Hand Reaming:

This is not my preferred method of chambering, but a careful person who understands the fact that the chamber must be concentric can easily perform simple improved chamberings.  Care must be taken not to push the reamer out of alignment with the barrel, and 308 is right when he states that the pilot takes care of most of this issue.

Like Gray Beard I don't expect this to be the last time this is discussed, but I wanted to post the facts.  That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee at the corner convenience store. :wink:

Qualifications:  Over 20 years as a full time gunsmith.
                      Published a book on wildcatting.

Fred
www.4-dproducts.com

[Fred M]

Mac.
Yes I have talked to Dave Kiff as a matter of fact I been in his shop and picked up a custom wildcat reamer that he made from my design. He made several for me, on in particular a 280 AI. That traveled the globe. I call them AI but they are not really AI, because standard ammo can't be fired in any of my wildcat chambers.

I never chambered a wild cat by hand but it is done all the time. If anybody is happy with mediocre accuracy then that is fine with me.
You simply can't set up a barrel by hand to have the chamber and the barrel concentric and in a straight line.

To run a generic reamer into a generic chamber is a matter of luck if you don't end up with ridges or out of round sections. Not to mention loose pilots. Dave supplies pilots 0.0002" less the bore, that is a radial clearance of 0.0001"

Dialing in an existing chamber at the very back end and the muzzle does not mean the bore and the chamber is in line, To get things lined up you need deltronic buttons, and button gages. Perhaps non of this is applicable on a Handi rifle. Specially when the bore is bigger at the muzzle than at the chamber and have SAMMI max chambers and then some.

Of course my finding are not conclusive since I only measured three bores and three chambers. Non I would have  considered for an AI by simply running a reamer in.

If you have a perfect reamed chamber and you want to adjust head space and and have the chamber reamer this is often done by hand.
The throat moves forward 0.001" for about every 100 rounds, Afeter 2 or 300 rounds you can move the chamber ahead by hand that much, but the set back is done on a lathe. So hand work can be don with reamers.

Also I think a 30-30AI is a fine creation, even in a Handi. But if you want reasonabe performance do a lot of measuring and get a good smith to do the job if can afford it. And if he is a reputable one he will tell youi whether you have a good platform or not. Superior performance is the idea of a wild cat.

Mac, I am really tired of all this, and dont know for what good all this writing is. We have people here that are experts on the matter and people like me that write nonsense.

I got to go to bed been working a night at the machine shop and finished my Handi octagone barrel for the 6x47 Wildcat, come to think of it you could shoot 222Rem Magnums in it but they be a bit loose in the bore, ha?

[RemingtonMagnum]

HI friends

If I try to sell you a green tail light to go on the rear of your car for better gas milage. How many will buy my green lights? When it comes to what custom gun work companys have for sell you do quiet ofter buy green lights.

IE: There are a lot of nothing facts for sale in our line of hobbies!

Don Jackson Remington Magnum

[.308]

Fred...Have you ever talked with Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool & Die,I'm sure you know who I mean ...he runs the company
Mac

Mac,  here are a couple of facts.

The reamer I rented for the .30-30AI project was marked 'PTG' which stands for Pacific Tool and Gauge.

Another related fact. I cannot find Pacific Tool and Die anywhere on the web. Could it be that you were referring to Pacific Tool and Gauge instead? So if the reamer I rented came from the place you referred to, does that mean I have an Ackley?

So if you were referring to Pacific Tool and Gauge http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/reamers.asp I know the Fred you were referring to in your post at least buys reamers from them. I don't know if he's talked to Dave Kiff or not as FredM says he has.

I could be wrong here and you could have been talking to FredM rather than Rifle Builder a.k.a Fred.  :eek:

Edit:
Some folks might feel this is not a friendly place if they see people greeted like Rifle Builder was greeted in the quote above. Why not save some of the sarcasm for the p/m's and deal with the issue man to man. Just a suggestion, sir. :wink:

[jason280]

There are three kinds of people in the world, thinkers, doers, and commentators

JPH45 is exactly right, and I'll go one step farther and say we have way too many of the third right now.  I mean, quite a few people in this thread have only come here to argue about subjects they have little to no experience in.  I guess its the nature of the internet, where everyone becomes a self-proclaimed expert with the click of a button.

Now, the new argument is over hand reaming. There have been countless numbers of people here who have hand reamed chambers with 100% success. I guess there all lying, and their chambers are out of line.  I mean, listen to the self-proclaimed expert:

I never chambered a wild cat by hand but it is done all the time. If anybody is happy with mediocre accuracy then that is fine with me.
You simply can't set up a barrel by hand to have the chamber and the barrel concentric and in a straight line

.308, according to this "expert", your chamber is out of line and you'll never achieve anything more than "mediocre accuracy".  Oh, and he was able to determine this without ever seeing your gun, the original chamber, the new chamber, or the final outcome.  Wow, he truly is an "expert"!   :roll:

A lot of folks hang a 40 degree shoulder on a cartridge and they call it a Ackley Improved...sorry...Ackley set the dimensions a long time ago
...and if they aren't what he specified...it ain't a Ackley...it may be a Ackley inspired...but a Ackley it's not....

OK, let's do our best to get in to a semantic argument.  I mean, you must be right.  The reamer was marked ".30-30 AI", and the dies are marked ".30-30 AI 40* improved", but there is no way his chamber is now an actual .30-30 AI chamber.  Right?  Please tell me how you know the dimensions of his (or any other .30-30 AI) chamber.    

Really, can't you and Fred start your on thread?  I'm sure that in no time, you two could have the thread to several pages by simply agreeing with one another.  You could even title it "The futility of hand reaming and the .30-30 AI".  Is that catchy enough for you?

[.308]

Mac, I think this thread has about run it's course. As for calling PTG, I don't need to. I've already rechambered the barrel, so why should I? It's working out good, no matter what you and others have had to say about it.

I hope you don't take what I've just said to be sarcastic, like I and others may have taken your reply to Rifle Builder to be a bit sarcastic. P/M's as some have suggested would be a better place to resolve personal issues. However that's up the the individuals.

No matter. You don't agree with me on this project, and nothing I or anybody else can say will change that, that is obvious. Neither do I agree with you, and that won't change either.

If you'd prefer, since you are a moderator on this forum,  I'll carry on with my reports to the one's (yes there are more than one) that are interested via the p/m's.

Nuff said. End of Story.

With all due respect.

Take care,
Lamar

[Mac11700]

Lamar:

That's fine..I applaud your efforts for wanting to improve your Handi..I really do....and your quite mistaken if you don't believe that...there's nothing wrong with making your rifle into to what you want it to be.We all do from time to time want something more than just what's offered...My question to riflebuilder while seemingly sarcastic to some..wasn't intentional flaming..it was direct...not like Jasons responses to Fred M... which was intentional flaming...and subsequently will be closely monitored from now on and no longer be tolerated here...

My advise to call Dave at PT&G is fitting...since you are using their equipment...and as a side note to all of this...a few who has read these past 2 threads on this forum about the Handi AI conversions..did just that yesterday..and 1 of them had already done the conversion..According to Dave..that individual wasn't happy what was told them by Dave at all... since they did go and take the measurements as he asked them to and  and they found out they had made it to long..it's a easy thing to do...

This is a public forum...and if you want to have a private conversation...then by all means use the PM functions..but..having a open debate is also benificial..it allows all sides a resonable chance to be heard and new ideas to be expressed..and in this way all of us can learn something new...and for those here who haven't ever worked on a 30-30 AI or are considering doing this conversion top their Handi's..to pick up some needed information..My whole intent is to help,and see to it that accurate and safe information is given..If I don't know...I ask those that do and use all of my contacts to find out..and then share the same to those wanting to know...

Everyone has a right to agree...or disagree and to post their comments on any subject on this forum...but to continuing to propagate faulty information just because they think it's correct and then complain when corrected is childish..and flaming other members here won't be allowed..no matter what...those are the rules...I didn't make them..I mearly see to it that they are followed...

Riflebuilder...Lamar is correct...it was a poor greeting for you and I am truely sorry...so I humbly offer my apology to you sir...

Mac

[Leftoverdj]

The Handi is a ok platform for us to tinker with...and as most here know..I have done some rechambering and will do somemore before it is all said and done..Where I have a problem with is when folks say they can do something like what you have done...and then they want to call it a Ackely Improved...It's not..it doesn't work that way..to be a true to Ackley's design for the 30-30...it requires the case to have a .004" crush fit...this is so Anyone can use factory ammo in it. and you get a perfectly fireformed case from it...not one that has excessive case head expansion on it to start
Mac

With rimless cases, you would be right, Mac. For rimmed cases you are wrong. The rim and the rim recess control the initial fireforming and the shoulder has nothing to do with it. It's perfectly safe to fire factory ammo in the recut chamber as long as the original rimcut was within tolerances in the first place and was not deepened in the rechamber. You ain't gonna get no "case head expansion" with reasonable fireformining load. All you'll do is move the shoulder forward and expand the case body. You won't even affect case life significantly if you set up your dies properly.

Rimless cases are a different story, one I'm not going into at this time.

It's also important to remember that we are talking about Handis, not benchrest rifles. MOA is the best we can hope for and a distant dream for many of us. A perfect chamber would be nice, but we ain't ever gonna get one. A careful hand ream job is plenty good enough for what we are working with. It's likely to be better than some of the work I have seen come out of factories and military arsenals.

[safetysheriff]

308:


..to be a true to Ackley's design for the 30-30...it requires the case to have a .004" crush fit...this is so Anyone can use factory ammo in it. and you get a perfectly fireformed case from it...not one that has excessive case head expansion on it to start with...

It's nice to have people agree with you..but there is always the other side of the coin to deal with as well...and once in a while..it may wind up on the edge...where you have to take both sides into consideration...this is one of those times...it is possible to rechamber a handi into a improved version notice I didn't say Ackley..and by doing so..you need to be made aware of all possibilities involved...not just by a few who say they have done it without any problems...namely because.. they don't know what they are doing to begin with or as Greybeard has so eliquently stated...they are flat out lying to you.. Our Handi rifles chambers-bores vary so much from lot to lot that it will always be a guessing game on them...you should know this from reading everthing that has been posted here..Some of the guns are chambered correctly...some under bored...and a-lot are oversized......Once you do rechamber to a Improved version...you have to be willing to know how to load for it safely and correctly....there's a-lot more to working with wildcats and reloading in genneral than people realize...it's not just a simple matter of buying some cheap dies and going at it ...you have a lot of measuring to do..and certain guidelines to follow to make sure your doing it safely...while you may get lucky and have no major mishaps..others that may be interested in doing this in a Handi may not fare so well by taking poor advice....Fred M...and a host of others can attest to this...and wither you take our word for it..or someone elses is entirely up to you...so...just go slow with it...watch your measurements carefully...and have fun with it..if it is too far out of specs...have it rechambered again and start over...it's all about having fun anyways...and it's all a learning experiance..or at least it should be

Mac

Mac'

i think that your paragraph above about dealing with the 'crush' and with the potential for problems is Very Welcome from me for one.    I'm not sure what that's worth, but it is a consideration that is different from the headspace question actually, since the rimmed .30-30 doesn't headspace on the shoulder.    it's still possible to have problems which you alluded to, however, in your other post.

take care,

ss'

[safetysheriff]

Sometimes it's so hard to tell which side of the fence folks are on. Isn't it? No offense.

.308'
good to see another wildcatter/hotrodder at work on a Handi'.    
please, check to see that -- by using that new reamer -- that you do not have an excessive headspace condition  ss'

the difference in this case, since it's a rimmed cartridge and he watched closely to keep from cutting into the rim, is that it doesn't headspace on the shoulder and should therefore be similar to a fire-forming procedure used by wildcatters over the years.

Here's a little quote  for you ss', since you like some of mine. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive". Again, no offense, Sir. :-D One more thing. I told some folks the other day about how you'd changed, like maybe you'd turned over a new leaf. Folks, I take all that back and anything nice I had to say about him. Oh, and no offense, Sir. I am deeply hurt with you, cause I thought we were gonna be buds. Felicitations and goodbye to you sir.


Jason, so you went to one smith and he told you it could be done, then to be sure you sought a second opinion, and you got the same answer. Kinda like getting a second opinion from another doctor or two before brain surgery. Where brain surgeons or rocket scientists when you need them.  BTW, I take it you're not familiar with ss's little game. Watch and learn. He'll be calling me out on this one. But I'll ignore him. Just watch.

G/B, Well, I see you've been reading again.  :wink:    I appreciate your concerns.   Ignore may be a bit strong, but I assure you I know whom I should ignore here on this forum by now. Let's just say I don't pay attention to some of the folks. :wink:

this is worth saving! :grin:

[Rifle Builder]

The Handi is a ok platform for us to tinker with...and as most here know..I have done some rechambering and will do somemore before it is all said and done..Where I have a problem with is when folks say they can do something like what you have done...and then they want to call it a Ackely Improved...It's not..it doesn't work that way..to be a true to Ackley's design for the 30-30...it requires the case to have a .004" crush fit...this is so Anyone can use factory ammo in it. and you get a perfectly fireformed case from it...not one that has excessive case head expansion on it to start
Mac

With rimless cases, you would be right, Mac. For rimmed cases you are wrong. The rim and the rim recess control the initial fireforming and the shoulder has nothing to do with it. It's perfectly safe to fire factory ammo in the recut chamber as long as the original rimcut was within tolerances in the first place and was not deepened in the rechamber.
Rimless cases are a different story, one I'm not going into at this time.

Leftoverdj,

Your 110% correct!  Have you ever tried to crush a solid brass rim .004"?

All the best.

Fred
www.4-dproducts.com