Author Topic: Ford to lay off as well.... (Read 1605 times)

DirtyHarry · « **on:** December 07, 2005, 05:05:11 PM »

Ford announced today that they will also be laying off 20-30,000 workers and closing up to 10 assembly plants.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/07/news/fortune500/ford_plantclosings/index.htm

I noticed in the "Union Bashing" thread the Ford guy's jumped in to tell us what was wrong with GM, I wonder if they will now step up with the same zeal and tell us why Ford is going down the tubes as well?

BTW, I don't own a Ford or GM product...

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2005, 01:43:35 AM »

I'll get blasted for this but the days of $15 to $20 dollar per hour jobs with massive benefit packages are about over. Competition has gotten to great and profit margins keep getting smaller. This country is going to implode from within and we are seeing the beginnings now. Company loyalty means nothing anymore. :eek: :shock:

bullet maker · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2005, 03:23:09 AM »

Hey guys

Do you think that maybe some if not all the problem is with the CEO`s, and their hugh paychecks, they get, along with all the sugar coatings, they get for being the CEO`s? :shock: As far as the statement of $15--to 20.00 dollar an hour, being over with, I hope your wrong, cause nobody, can make it for anything less.

I think alot of these problems are the direct result of CEO`S, making too much.

just a thought to ponder.

bullet maker

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2005, 04:07:23 AM »

Yes it's true that CEOs are making to much money but they aren't the only ones. What about the leech in your pocketbook every week known as Union dues. 10 plants and 30 thousand jobs lost, what is the Union going to do for you now. As for not being able to live on less than 15 to 20 dollars an hour lots of people do. Maybe you should try it sometime.It's not easy but it can be done. What about when a company goes belly up and leaves with the retirement money you have paid into for years and the government has to pick up the tab and pays you from their fund. Hmmmmm-kinda sounds like government welfare to me. I am not really anti-union but we are now seeing the snowball effect of what they have done.

clodbuster · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2005, 04:17:06 AM »

I agree CEO's are overpaid but I don't think their pay is responsible for the business problems of US auto makers or other businesses; the problem is the CEO's. All my career as a middle manager with a major corp, training programs always hammered in to our heads, DONT CUT PRICES, THE WAY TO PROFIT IS PRICE INCREASES. Well, as competition from Japcrap cars increased what have exec's been doing in response? price cuts. Even worse are the crybaby airlines. Fuel goes up, ticket prices went down. Personally, I buy in to the price increase concept. When costs go up so must prices. Its a simple fact. The Walmart concept of lower prices year after year is not a longterm workable system, it is choking the life out of the businesses Walmart touches. American consumers (all of us) like the feeling of good merchandise for cheap and our capitalistic system is the best BUT we are squeezing the life out of our golden goose. We're headed for a crash and how hard it will be depends on how long before CEO's wake up and buy their own story. "You gotta make a profit and you gotta reinvest in your company to keep it healthy" Enough for my rant. :x

jh45gun · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2005, 06:06:43 AM »

You union dudes and middle management can blame walmart, kmart, target and who ever you want plus the CEO's but bottom line is the Unions have screwed it for them selves. Like Hell you cannot survive on less than 15 dollars a hour lots of folks do and I survive on a heck of a lot less than 7 to 8 bucks a hour on the SS disability I get. Tough you bet but I do it and and not whining every darn min that since I am not making 15 bucks a hour the world is going to end~ ! :x For Every union guy out there making 15 to 20 bucks a hour I bet there are several men or woman out there making half that and doing ok. I never made over 9 bucks my whole life on a regular job and managed to live fairly well. Even when I was married and had a wife and 2 of her kids to support. Over 30 years ago I read in a magazine that sooner or later the US would be a INFO and Tech center for the world and the third world countries would be into manufactoring just as we were in a earlier age. Looks like that prediction is coming to pass.

magooch · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2005, 06:11:23 AM »

I have a slightly different take on the problem and that is that to be successful, big business needs to produce a better product and then stand behind it. Take for example Toyota. This company makes some very good vehicles that seem to satisfy the customers. Toyota does pretty well, even though their products are not real competitively priced.

I don't think that Toyota has the corner on building good vehicles, but somehow they have earned a very good reputation and they are benefitting from that. It seems that people will pay a little more for what they believe is a superior product.

The other important thing to do is to build what the customer wants. In this regard even Toyota is not without fault. Just go and try to buy a vehicle that has only the equipment that you want, that is the color you want, with the engine and transmission you want; it's almost impossible. I know because I've been trying to buy a Tacoma for nearly two years and apparently the only way I can get it is their way. The factory wasn't even considerate enough to answer my letter inquiring why I couldn't get it my way.

Anyway, that's another story. The bottom-line is that you have to make the customer happy with the best product and/or service; the rest will take care of itself.

I worked in an industry for nearly 40 years that was very much unionized and I'm glad it was. Unions are not perfect, but they are a necessity when dealing with some, if not all, very large businesses. The downside is that workers are often not rewarded for their superior work. I worked along side some people who just wouldn't, or couldn't do a good job, but they got the same pay. That is the aspect of being unionized that works to the detriment of the business. Business and unions must realize that if a workman is doing a really good job, he/she is worth every cent and then some. Where I worked, there was some recognition, but it was woefully inadequate.

jh45gun · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2005, 08:51:24 AM »

Good point magooch! Unions have been protecting non productive workers for years and WE pay for it!

bullet maker · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2005, 08:53:26 AM »

Quote from: Nightrain52

Yes it's true that CEOs are making to much money but they aren't the only ones. What about the leech in your pocketbook every week known as Union dues. 10 plants and 30 thousand jobs lost, what is the Union going to do for you now. As for not being able to live on less than 15 to 20 dollars an hour lots of people do. Maybe you should try it sometime.It's not easy but it can be done. What about when a company goes belly up and leaves with the retirement money you have paid into for years and the government has to pick up the tab and pays you from their fund. Hmmmmm-kinda sounds like government welfare to me. I am not really anti-union but we are now seeing the snowball effect of what they have done.

Wellll----excccuuuuuuuse me. but I didnt know you was down wind of me when I spit my tobacco out the window. :-D :-D . my uncle always said, that you never walked down wind of a tobacco chewer. Its not the union dues that bother me, its the federal government taxing me 30 percent of my wages that gives me the red neck.
And if the company goes belly up---you can be sure of one thing------the CEO and the junior exuctives, will do just fine in their golden parachutes, as they flee to mexico resorts, where they will live out the rest of their lives in comfort. :twisted: As for the rest of us, we will starve.

Gentlemen the problem with this country, its not the unions, its the government, and these greedy company CEO`S. Believe that or not.

bullet maker

clodbuster · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2005, 09:11:05 AM »

Sorry bullet maker can't agree with your opinion on this one. Our government has so much less involvement in our lives than those in most other developed countries in the world and yet people there are happy with their lives. Don't get me wrong , I don't care for gummint meddling in my personal life but I just don't get the feeling it does. Gotta go along with the greedy CEO thing. Their manipulation of quarterly business results for the purpose of maximizing their bonuses is done at everyone else expense. Until they begin to take a longer view of things it ain't gonna get better.

bullet maker · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2005, 09:42:51 AM »

thats ok clodbuster

at least you and I agree on the CEO part.

bullet maker

bullet maker · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2005, 09:56:25 AM »

Quote from: jh45gun

You union dudes and middle management can blame walmart, kmart, target and who ever you want plus the CEO's but bottom line is the Unions have screwed it for them selves. Like Hell you cannot survive on less than 15 dollars a hour lots of folks do and I survive on a heck of a lot less than 7 to 8 bucks a hour on the SS disability I get. Tough you bet but I do it and and not whining every darn min that since I am not making 15 bucks a hour the world is going to end~ ! :x For Every union guy out there making 15 to 20 bucks a hour I bet there are several men or woman out there making half that and doing ok. I never made over 9 bucks my whole life on a regular job and managed to live fairly well. Even when I was married and had a wife and 2 of her kids to support. Over 30 years ago I read in a magazine that sooner or later the US would be a INFO and Tech center for the world and the third world countries would be into manufactoring just as we were in a earlier age. Looks like that prediction is coming to pass.

I want to learn jh45gun

I want you to tell me here on this board how you lived on less than $9.00 per hour and raised a family. I dont mean making money selling racoon hides for extra money. I mean a flat $9.00 per hour. Now I dont mean in 1940 either, I mean now. Today.
If you started from scratch, nothing given to you, no inhertance of a house or farm or car or truck, how did you do it. I want to know.
I`m not trying to make fun,----I`m curious.

bullet maker

Lawdog · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2005, 11:17:00 AM »

Quote from: Nightrain52

I'll get blasted for this but the days of $15 to $20 dollar per hour jobs with massive benefit packages are about over. Competition has gotten to great and profit margins keep getting smaller. This country is going to implode from within and we are seeing the beginnings now. Company loyalty means nothing anymore. :eek: :shock:

So where do you think it's going to head? Back to the days of $1.50 an hour jobs, no benefits? How do you propose to get Doctors and hospitals to roll back there rates? How do you propose to get food costs, housing and utilities rolled back? Not going to happen. Lawdog

bullet maker · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2005, 12:24:58 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun

You union dudes and middle management can blame walmart, kmart, target and who ever you want plus the CEO's but bottom line is the Unions have screwed it for them selves. Like Hell you cannot survive on less than 15 dollars a hour lots of folks do and I survive on a heck of a lot less than 7 to 8 bucks a hour on the SS disability I get. Tough you bet but I do it and and not whining every darn min that since I am not making 15 bucks a hour the world is going to end~ ! :x For Every union guy out there making 15 to 20 bucks a hour I bet there are several men or woman out there making half that and doing ok. I never made over 9 bucks my whole life on a regular job and managed to live fairly well. Even when I was married and had a wife and 2 of her kids to support. Over 30 years ago I read in a magazine that sooner or later the US would be a INFO and Tech center for the world and the third world countries would be into manufactoring just as we were in a earlier age. Looks like that prediction is coming to pass.

OK jh45gun, here is what I have come up with. If a person started work today for $9.00 per hour, his or her motel rent would be $25.00 per day, times 7 days a week time for one month rent, $700.00 for one month of motel rent. The reason I used $25.00 is because thats the cheapest I found in Tulsa, Okla.
Now that $9.00 per hour job times 8 hrs a day, times 5 days a week, times one month equals $1440.00 per month. Figure the tax base at 20%, and thats low---the taxes would be $288.00 on the gross leaving you with $1152.00 after taxes. Now your motel rent is costing you $700.00 for one month so now after paying motel ,---you have $452.00 left.

Thats $452.00 for one month to last you till next payday, if you dont have car payments, put gas in the car, and dont eat. If you eat and have a car payment, or dont have car payment, you still have to put gas in the car to go to work. Now all of this is assuming you are single at the time with no kids, or wife that gets sick.

Its pretty obvious that you cant make it on $9.00 per hour unless its 1964.

So all of you that think you can ---please inform me. And dont be jealous of union wages, if your so jealou, you should have hired out union. Its a free country.

bullet maker

jh45gun · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2005, 01:46:03 PM »

Sure you can you learn to adapt! That may be eating liver and chicken and what ever else is cheap at the store instead of Steak twice a week. IF I did eat steak it is and was usually Venison. It also means living in a house you can afford or pay rent you can afford which means you may not live in the nicest place on the block or you may live in subsidized housing. Your Vehicle is a 10 year old rust bucket but it still gets you around. In other words you live your own life and do not keep up with the Jones'es. Oh and why did you pick a motel to live in? Lots of other cheaper places than that! It can be done lots of folks do it every day and still can afford the pleasures of life once in a while. If I told you what I make on SS you would call me a liar and say I could not live on it but I do. Sure I cannot buy every things I want all the time and at the end of the month I am busted until I get paid again but I make due. Lots of folks living out there on less than 9 bucks a month even a lot less.

bullet maker · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2005, 02:59:25 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun

Sure you can you learn to adapt! That may be eating liver and chicken and what ever else is cheap at the store instead of Steak twice a week. IF I did eat steak it is and was usually Venison. It also means living in a house you can afford or pay rent you can afford which means you may not live in the nicest place on the block or you may live in subsidized housing. Your Vehicle is a 10 year old rust bucket but it still gets you around. In other words you live your own life and do not keep up with the Jones'es. Oh and why did you pick a motel to live in? Lots of other cheaper places than that! It can be done lots of folks do it every day and still can afford the pleasures of life once in a while. If I told you what I make on SS you would call me a liar and say I could not live on it but I do. Sure I cannot buy every things I want all the time and at the end of the month I am busted until I get paid again but I make due. Lots of folks living out there on less than 9 bucks a month even a lot less.

You missed my point, you havent shown me anything, your just using rhtoric. I`m trying to show you it cant be done, this is not for me. I`m retired and make it just fine on my railroad retirement.That my friend is what I payed in for 28 years, till I got disabled, and now i`m enjoying my fruits, thanks for a union. But for the general public thats out their only makeing $9.00 per hour, its tough.
The reason I used a motel for a comparison, is because thats what a person would be living in, if he just came off the street and went to work for $9.00 per hour. Yes it is costly, but remeber were talking about a real senario.
I think I have made my point, and your just using generlizations for an example. Pencil and Paper, do the math, it dont add up. I rest my case your honor.

bullet maker

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2005, 03:00:14 PM »

Well all I am going to say is I am in the same boat as Jim. I draw a little over $900.00 per month SSD so you do the math. It can be done but at times it gets pretty bare the last few days of the month. My old car broke down last summer and I couldn't afford to fix it. A person has to learn you have to make do with what you got. Oh yeah, I also forget I have over $300.00 worth of medicine to buy every month so that knocks it down to $600.00 to live on. Still think it can't be done? I do it every month.

bullet maker · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2005, 03:01:39 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun

Sure you can you learn to adapt! That may be eating liver and chicken and what ever else is cheap at the store instead of Steak twice a week. IF I did eat steak it is and was usually Venison. It also means living in a house you can afford or pay rent you can afford which means you may not live in the nicest place on the block or you may live in subsidized housing. Your Vehicle is a 10 year old rust bucket but it still gets you around. In other words you live your own life and do not keep up with the Jones'es. Oh and why did you pick a motel to live in? Lots of other cheaper places than that! It can be done lots of folks do it every day and still can afford the pleasures of life once in a while. If I told you what I make on SS you would call me a liar and say I could not live on it but I do. Sure I cannot buy every things I want all the time and at the end of the month I am busted until I get paid again but I make due. Lots of folks living out there on less than 9 bucks a month even a lot less.

bullet maker · « **Reply #18 on:** December 08, 2005, 03:16:04 PM »

guys honest--I`m not trying to pick on anybody, I`m using a scenio of a ----lets just say a young person. One who just got kicked out of the nest, and his dad said---OK son, your out of the house, I`m breaking your dinner plate, lets see you make it on your own. It will be very hard to do at $9.00 per hour.

Now I`m not talking about us old heads, we been around the block or two and know how to survive. But if a person goes to work at $9.00,hour and has no car, place to live, etc, now do you see what I mean. It would be very hard and take him years to get ahead. I`m not talking about a person that already has a home, and lives in the country and survive off wild game, but one that lives in the city, or small town America that has nothing.

Yeah I know we all started out that way, but your missing the fact that all of us, had an ace in the hole, we had a working wife, or just still lived at home. So yes in that sense we would make it fine.

bullet maker

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 08, 2005, 03:51:34 PM »

I know what you are saying Bullit Maker. Here in Indiana The minimum wage is $6.50 per hour I believe. No even a single person starting out would find it very hard to get by. In the area I live in a shack(or thats what I call it)rents for $300.00 per month. There is no way he can support himself out on his own. I commend people that have or have had union jobs. I never was lucky enough to land one as it seems in this area you had to have relatives or friends with some pull to get in the door. I finally got into driving a truck but I never could get in the teamsters so i done the best I could. I made some pretty decent money unles you figured it at an hourly rate. Figured this way I wasn't doing much better than minimum wage. I guess what I am trying to say is you play the cards your dealt. Some people get all the aces and some people end up with the jokers.

Brett · « **Reply #20 on:** December 08, 2005, 04:53:24 PM »

I guess some folks can't imagine living in a 3 bedroom flat in the low rent district, spitting the rent and utilities with a couple of room mates, and taking public transportation or car pooling to a minimum wage job. Probably because there has always been someone there like Mommy or Daddy or Uncle Sam that would always step in and pick up the tab if things got a little too hard for them to handle on their own.

jh45gun · « **Reply #21 on:** December 08, 2005, 06:02:16 PM »

Well Bullet Maker not all of us can work the railroad though maybe we tried. I worked on the Section crew for the Soo Line for a month back in the early 70's Pay was 5 something a hour which was back then good money I thought I had it made, finally a good job. Well the Union stepped right before my probation period was up and said we cannot use you as you had a previous surgery and we do not hire any one that has had a previous surgery. Hell this was not back or any other serious surgery but corrective surgery on my leg. Stupid rule but it was their rule and I had to leave the job. The boss'es brother told me they would not hire him for the same reason. Probably is one reason I think unions SUCK! I would tend to guess if you worked for the rail road you had it pretty easy all the time you were working and on your retirement. So you would find it hard to understand how some can live on less money.

After Medicare Night train I make a little less than you do on the 600. Yea its tough but as you said it can be done!

NYH1 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 08, 2005, 07:09:41 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun

Well Bullet Maker not all of us can work the railroad though maybe we tried. I worked on the Section crew for the Soo Line for a month back in the early 70's Pay was 5 something a hour which was back then good money I thought I had it made, finally a good job. Well the Union stepped right before my probation period was up and said we cannot use you as you had a previous surgery and we do not hire any one that has had a previous surgery.

Jim the UNION didn't make this rule. It was something that the UNION AND THE COMPANY agreed on before you were even hired. Knowing a little bit about contract negotiations, the union agreed to that rule in exchange for something else. Thats how it works. Learn something about contract negotiations before YOU BLAME THE UNION! How many time are you going to blame the UNION for losing your railroad job? It was an agreement the UNION and the COMPANY had!

Quote from: jh45gun

The boss'es brother told me they would not hire him for the same reason. Probably is one reason I think unions SUCK!

You wouldn't think unions SUCK if YOU were collecting your retirement right now..........WOULD YOU???

williamlayton · « **Reply #23 on:** December 08, 2005, 08:28:50 PM »

You fellows are yelling into the wind.
Both are right and both are wrong. Things are changing and pretty soon all will be poor.
Money is not the answer. If we depend on this life we are lost. Things will change and folks will have need to adjust, but it will not be a select few, it will be everybody. Wealth will not be isolated, though many will think so.
Hang on, it gets better in the end.
Blessings

Brett · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2005, 01:43:52 AM »

William, Me thinks you read the final chapter of The Book. I can tell because you know how the story ends. Well, it's not really the end is it? John 3:16 :wink:

Savage .250 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 09, 2005, 02:40:52 AM »

Lets not forget the Share/stock holders in this equation. They want more profits so they lean on Management to get more return for their bucks.
The money pie which once was labeled "made in america" has been
deflated a great deal by that other phase, "Out sourcing".
Plus, like it or not, foreign cars seemed to be what Americans like. Why
is that? I`ll bet there are some guys on here that own one or two. To me the reason is simple when you look at a car, new or used, you take the best deal which more often then not is a foreign car/truck IMO.
That being said the benefits negotiated by unions over the years have become an albatross around the necks of big companies such as Ford
if the news papers are correct.
There was a time American Auto companies had little or no competition
selling units and making money. In todays market they are just a competitor trying to make a buck and at the looks of it not doing a very good job. I would say that the American domination of the Auto industry is gone forever.
If you don`t dominate can the remaining structure support the old weight? All of use have had to make adjustments of some kind or another
so it looks like Ford is doing the same thing. IMO.

" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

bullet maker · « **Reply #26 on:** December 09, 2005, 03:30:27 AM »

very well said Savage250

I myself drive a Dodge Caravan, 2005 model. Rode only Harley Davidsons for 28 years also. As of yet never bought a foreign import. Well I take that back, I did and still own a kawasaki Mule, four wheel drive, for hunting, pleasure, and working the farm with. :-D

doesn't it seem strange however, that when these companies have these cut back`s, and layoffs, they do it right before Christmas cry: Sure seems like Scroog, in Charles Dickson. Makes you wonder why they couldn't do it in anyother time of year, except Christmas time?

bullet maker

Savage .250 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 09, 2005, 03:41:14 AM »

bullet maker.............................Thank you sir.

" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Savage .250 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 09, 2005, 04:30:48 AM »

Quote from: Nightrain52

Well all I am going to say is I am in the same boat as Jim. I draw a little over $900.00 per month SSD so you do the math. It can be done but at times it gets pretty bare the last few days of the month. My old car broke down last summer and I couldn't afford to fix it. A person has to learn you have to make do with what you got. Oh yeah, I also forget I have over $300.00 worth of medicine to buy every month so that knocks it down to $600.00 to live on. Still think it can't be done? I do it every month.

Nightrain52: Just a question. Is the new Medicare prescription set-up
going to do you any good? All those plans leave you scratching your head.
It may be a plan for all seniors or so the Gov`t says but not all will get any benefit from it. Looks good on paper but in fact it really leaves a lot to be desired or put another way, what you see is not what you get!

" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

jh45gun · « **Reply #29 on:** December 09, 2005, 05:06:08 AM »

If your very low income you may get the plan for free or pay little. If not you will pay from 30 to 50 bucks or more a month income that could be used for something else. Not sure it this is going to help us or not because there still will be a deductable. I do not think it is the golden goose that some say and if you already are getting help from the drug companies if your low income and are medicare eligable I would bet they will drop you unless you sign up for this and still may. Not sure how it is going to pan out.