DRILLIN the touch HOLE

[john pike]

I NEED HELP,

while drilling the touch hole,,,very slow, clearing the chips often,
using fluid,,,,

when the bitt went into the bore, it caught, on the curve,,i think,
and i snapped my bitt off flush with the outside,

with a flashlight i can see the tip of the bitt, in the bore,,,


I NEED HELP,

johnp

[Blaster]

I NEED HELP,

while drilling the touch hole,,,very slow, clearing the chips often,
using fluid,,,,

when the bitt went into the bore, it caught, on the curve,,i think,
and i snapped my bitt off flush with the outside,

with a flashlight i can see the tip of the bitt, in the bore,,,


I NEED HELP,

johnp

I do not want to appear to be a wise ass but that's my kind of luck!  And that's why I won't even start any such projects even if I did have the proper tools and the know how.  John, I do hope it works out OK for you.
Blaster (Bob in So. CO)

[GGaskill]

Where is the drill in relation to the bottom of the bore?  Maybe you can stick a piece of 1" bar with a lightly chamfered edge down the bore and force the bit above the surface to grab with vise grips.

This is a problem; especially at this point.  One thing to consider if the hole does go all the way through is "shooting" it out.  Load a powder charge and a wad and a fuse through the wad (or underneath) and fire the charge with the touch hole facing down at the dirt.  Maybe the pressure will blow the drill out the touch hole.

[john pike]

Where is the drill in relation to the bottom of the bore?  Maybe you can stick a piece of 1" bar with a lightly chamfered edge down the bore and force the bit above the surface to grab with vise grips.

This is a problem; especially at this point.  One thing to consider if the hole does go all the way through is "shooting" it out.  Load a powder charge and a wad and a fuse through the wad (or underneath) and fire the charge with the touch hole facing down at the dirt.  Maybe the pressure will blow the drill out the touch hole.

from what i can tell,, its against the back wall of the bore,
like a half trench, 1/4 inch down the wall of the bore,

hence probably twisting it and causing the snap,

i put my drill bit 1-1/8 back in and spun it hopeing to iether snap the
tip off or push it up,
no go,

How about heating the barrel(there goes my paint) and driving it
with drill rod??

johnp

[Cat Whisperer]

I NEED HELP,

while drilling the touch hole,,,very slow, clearing the chips often,
using fluid,,,,

when the bitt went into the bore, it caught, on the curve,,i think,
and i snapped my bitt off flush with the outside,

with a flashlight i can see the tip of the bitt, in the bore,,,


I NEED HELP,

johnp

I've done it too.  I was drilling into a hard steel and didn't slow down enough when it broke through.

I think your bore is reasonably large, so this may work.

Since you can see the end of the bit, you know you only have a little bit of material holding it into place.  

I took a punch and drove it deeper - cleared the burr and fell out.  Punch of the right size?  How about a piece of drill rod the same diameter?  Or maybe reverse the bit?  A light tap will do it.

You've been in these tough situations before - you'll have it out before dark.

[GGaskill]

Doubt you can get enough angle to drive it out from the inside and driving from the top will likely stick it harder.  I would take some acid and drip it through the touch hole but don't let it pool in the bore.  Hopefully this will loosen the grip and let the drill come out.

But I would try shooting it out first.

[Cat Whisperer]

Just got your previous post.

Might be a little tougher, but it's still likely just a matter of dislodging it.

[Powder keg]

I have a little stainless barrel with a bit still stuck in it  Sometimes if the bit is sticking up just a bit you can get a nut and place over the bit and weld the bit to the nut. This will give you something to hold onto.

Good luck,

[Cat Whisperer]

I have a little stainless barrel with a bit still stuck in it  Sometimes if the bit is sticking up just a bit you can get a nut and place over the bit and weld the bit to the nut. This will give you something to hold onto.

Good luck,

That's a GREAT technique if you can get to it!  Also works on stuck bolts.

The barrel is malleable steel (soft) the drill bit is hard (hence brittle).

While we're thinking of all the ways to fix this, John is going to do it.

There are still three or four things to try we've not mentioned here - some Rube Goldberg some not.  (If you're not familiar with Rube Goldberg, see: http://www.rube-goldberg.com/ )

Tune in tomorrow....

[john pike]

wel i heated it up, and ground the remaining-drill bitt shank/shaft- flat,

it too snapped 1/6 down in, i thin got poed, and took my dead center
and waked it,  its not movin,

to start with, i milled a 1/4 trench,slot, on an angle on the barrel,
then i started drilling,
so acually im broke off at 1/4 down from the surface,

can i weld over it, and re-drill??? not through the weld,

im sooooo screwed,,,,

jpeeeeeee,,,,

[GGaskill]

Post some pictures so we can see what the current situation is.

[Cat Whisperer]

At this point I'd get some sleep and take a fresh perspective in the morning - to consider ALL the options.

Would it be possible to come in with a 1/16" or so end mill and clear a small area around the end of the drill bit to weld to or grip with vice-grips?

Is it possible to come in from the other side (locating VERY accurately) and put a 2nd fuse hole in on the other side (recommended in CW manuals for cannon that have been spiked)?

EDM is sometimes used to remove stuck tooling.  If it were carbide it would be easy to shatter it with impact.

Hmmmmm.  Don't give up, just do a LOT of planning before acting.

[gary michie]

make a block of wood just high enough that all you see is the drill end. make it so you can pull it out of the barrle . with a long rod rest it on the block and tap the rod .you might grove the block to hold the rod in place
gary

[GGaskill]

Take a break, have a beer and relax.  Don't do anything that will make it worse.  Post some pix so we can be of help.

We can put in a threaded vent piece to fill an oversize hole as long as we have (or can make) a round hole to deal with.

By the way, what is the diameter of the drill?

[john pike]

:evil:  :cry: it was 1/8 evil little drill bit, bran spanking new,

tried to drill beside it, snapped that one too,evils little twin,
,,now theres two,stuk,broken bitts laughing at me ,or WAS,,,

ive wrecked, sacraficed, two 1/4 bitts, and 3, 1/4 inch end mills,
i dipped them in distilled water, :lol:

but i now have a CLEAN, WOPPING, .366 HOLE,
with the top 1/4 looking like crap,

you can see the burnt wood on the tail end, the wife came running in with the fire extinguser, and im stand ing there watching the torch,
shes screaming im on fire, i said,,,yup, leter burn,,,, :-D
she put my son on guard duty,,,,

is a 3/8 fuse hole too big?

im thinking ofHeat/freeze- presure fitting a piece turned on the lathe,
1/4 taller than the cannon, then welding in all the GAP,
and grinding it smooth,
,
please let me know if this would be safe,

thanks Guys, good to know you all are there,
im taking a valium, and taking the rest of the night off,,,, :-D,
and half a day tommorrow, maybe saterday, probably sunday,
,
johnp

Have i ever mentioned i hate drilling small holes,
 :-D

[GGaskill]

Uuuuuuuuugly.  Now wait until everybody has weighed in with suggestions before picking one.  Here's mine.
 
Weld up all the peripheral holes so you have a relatively flat surface.  It would be preferable to put the barrel back in the lathe and clean up the welded up holes to a flush surface.  Using a 3/8" end mill, drill through the center of the .366" hole.  Then drill a tap drill hole (probably .386" but look it up) for a 7/16-20 plug and tap the hole all the way through.  Make a 7/16-20 threaded plug (with an 1/8" hole in the center) long enough to stick into the bore and above the outside surface.  Slot the top for a straight screwdriver.  Coat the threads and the bottom with hardening gasket sealer and screw in tightly.  Reload barrel in lathe and redrill bottom of bore to shape the plug to the rest of the bore.  Turn off the top of the plug.
 
Wait for other suggestions before doing anything.

[Squire Robin]

Here's a technique, not always credible but might help.

It's held together with hot melt glue to give a bit of flex.

You position the pin under the drill bit by pushing on the bar and pulling on the string, then hit the end of the bar. The pin goes vertical and pushes up on the broken drill with enormous force :grin:

[Cat Whisperer]

I agree, two things are needed.  To fill the hole (weld) and to put in a fuse-hole liner.  Threaded is most likely a very good option.  (Just after drilling for the tap, use the same setup to hold the tap in a chuck (hand turned) to maintain perfect alignment).

Fuse-hole liners are common, as the fuse hole erodes with much use.  You have several choices of materials.

You could design it so that the liner is a functional part of the ignition device - so that it holds the mechanism and a nipple for musket caps.  It could be designed to look esthetically pleasing (and cover a never-to-be-mentioned larger hole).

As a former commander mentioned to his staff after a noteable exercise - this operation is 'opportunity enriched'.


As I'm polishing my welding skills (for trunions) I'm using many 7/16" diameter short lengths of steel and welding them onto several 1-7/8 diameter scrap rounds.  When I get to my 10th or 20th, I WILL be GOOD at it.  If not, I'll do more.  The hint here is to practice on a very similar setup.


George is right, there are many ways of doing things and evaluating and sorting through them is just simply good planning.


This is the way WE ALL learn - by doing.  It's no longer theory, but OH $#&%, what do I do now?  

Down the road - some great stoires.

[guardsgunner]

To put a vent liner in is a good idea anytime.  About a year or so ago someone posted some pictures on this forum;of a musket nipple and hammer arrangement which would swing back out of the way so a fuse could be used. It was on a small navy gun, English around 1800 or so.
Always good to have options.

[john pike]

Well, i spent today, step drilling, and chizeling,out the two drill bits,
i couldent see leaving them in there, to rot, i made up a tiny chizel,
and beat the bit to death, then drilled out, to the next one, untill i was skiming it and my drill bits were complaining,
then chizeled, and step drilled out,
,
then i re-bored my cannon, so the whole, whole was off the angle of the bit,,
luckily i short bored it to begin with, and i still have 1.5 behind me,
(i did get my BIG bit stuck,,i think it jammed on a piece of small bit,
needles to say,I HATE DRILLING,)

so now i have a tapped and treadded hole, at 1/2 inch,

took a 2 X 1.2 bolt,
milled the end off it, center drilled it, then drilled it to 3/32,
flipped it, center drilled it,

then marked it in the barrel so it is just showing through, on the outside edges,
took it out, turned out the top end to 1/4 inch, down to the step 1/8
below the barrel,

i now plan to weld around the bolt, after sealing the treads,
thus making shure it wont blow out,

ill then grind the weld and 1/4 bolt top flush,

and re-drill the bore to take out the overhanging bolt,

maybe not the right way, but its the way im going to do it,

ill post pics ive been taking, later,

johnp

[Articifer Tom]

Hello , I noticed early in your post you said the bit hit the back of the breech .If so  be sure it is about  1/4" in front of; to allow room for the foil on your charges . I use  stainless bolts for all my liners and red locktite them in . This allows removal with heat if needed  And give a great seal to the threads.Also leave the head on until tighten in place as i don't tap clear through , then cut and grind flush.  A  dremel on a stick can get you dressed on the inside followed by cylinder hone .

[GGaskill]

I would NOT weld the plug in place.  You now have a joint in the bore at the point of highest pressure and it is sure to force combustion products into that joint.  This will cause corrosion since you can't thoroughly clean the joint.  Leave it removable.  Coat the threads with gasket sealer to minimize the influx of fouling.  If threaded properly, it will be strong enough.  Take it out after firing, clean, re-coat with gasket sealer and re-assemble.

[Cat Whisperer]

John -

Tom & George just gave you some VERY good advice.

[john pike]

John -

Tom & George just gave you some VERY good advice.

Yup, yr right, and im listinin,
ive lock-tightend the plug,
but im putting jb-weld, or bondo,(will that stay in place??)
 around the nipple, to fill in the milling, mess i made,
i cant weld for doggy do anyhow, so it saVES ANOTHER MESS,,,GRIN,,,

ive got alot of resanding and painting to do, grrrrr,

johnp

[Double D]

Vents

Here's what a vent liner looks like.  Make to size. make to fit. Fuse hole down the center.



Seems like a prudent thing to make.  Make from copper or stainless steel  Don't have it  protrude into the chamber as it mught snag the powder bag.  The round top is recessed into the barrel deep enough so the square top is recessed also.  The file the top flush.

If you have a misfire you can remove the plug and have better access for flushing.  You could also make a plug to fit your hose to get the water or CO2 in the chamber.

Make sure you use anti sieze compund on the threads. Don't loctite it in place.  You want to be able to remove  it for cleaning.

Use bondo to fill and shape.

[john pike]

putty'd primed, and painted,
back on the truck, now to make my hubs for the wheels,
and bolt everything togeather,
i did manage to weld up my trunion caps without incident,

johnp

[Cat Whisperer]

Ah hah!

Over another hurdle.

Since it's threaded, it is removeable.

Locktite expands when it sets.  That seals.

Anti-seize makes it easily removeable, where with locktite you'll have to use extra force (blue is minimal, red is much more) or you may have to HEAT the area to soften the locktite.

Key point here is that it has the vent hole the right size for the fuse and is removeable for inspection and cleaning on a periodic basis.

[CU_Cannon]

Were the vents of mortars lined?  I ask because I plan on lining the vent on my 12 pdr coehorn and wanted to know how accurate it would be.

[john pike]

Were the vents of mortars lined?  I ask because I plan on lining the vent on my 12 pdr coehorn and wanted to know how accurate it would be.

i know that whatever style i build next, id drill out for a liner,,,
breaking those little evel bits are a pain,

and with bondo, and PRE-planning, whose to know,,,,grin,,,

[Cat Whisperer]

....
i know that whatever style i build next, id drill out for a liner,,,
breaking those little evel bits are a pain,
....

Most of us know of liners.
Some of have seen a cannon with a liner.
And a few of us (not I) have made a cannon with a lined fuse hole!

I will let someone else speak from experience regarding accuracy.