Author Topic: Length to rifling  (Read 553 times)

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Offline MnMike

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Length to rifling
« on: December 11, 2005, 05:46:47 PM »
I wanted to find the length to the rifling on a 243. I didn't want to buy the gadgets that will tell you this. What I needed was a light  but firm grip on the bullet. I used my Lee collet die and pressed it just hard enough to get it to grip the case a  bit. I then chambered the round and poked it out with my cleaning rod. It took a few tries, but I found I was seating the bullet way to deep for the rifle. Hope this helps someone.

mike
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Offline Cowpox

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Length to rifling
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 10:23:39 AM »
Hello MnMike, The distance you are referring to is called "freebore", and does serve a purpose. It allows the bullet to gain some inertia before engaging the rifling. Over the last four decades, I have read a few articles on seating the bullet out to be very close, or actually touching the rifling. There are three results, one good, and two not so good. You usually gain a little accuracy, but starting the bullet out under a load shortens your pressure curve, and raises chamber pressure. In my opinion, I think seating the bullet close to the rifling is only of interest to bench rest shooters. In our case, it is probably best to use the freebore to get the extra velocity it was intended to provide.
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Offline Tn Jim

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Length to rifling
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2005, 06:33:55 AM »
I tried the seating the bullet out to the rifling in my T/C Encore. Groups were terrible. So I started backing the bullet off. I found, on this particular rifle, my best groups were at 60 thousandths off the rifling. Sub MOA now. It pays to experiment.
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Offline bmbtek02

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Length to rifling
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2005, 10:22:05 PM »
I agree with cowpox. I tried it but it totaly blew my rem 700 bdl's sub moa out the window I started backing it off the riflings and the groups returned.
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Offline Dusty Miller

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Length to rifling
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2005, 08:06:20 AM »
When you're poke'n that cartridge out with the cleaning rod do you suppose there is any possibility you are pushig the bullet deeper into the case?
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Offline tvc15

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Length to rifling
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2005, 11:39:44 AM »
I just bought a stoney point gauge. 30 dollars and your all the guessing is over. Good luck, TVC15

Offline Jim n Iowa

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Length to rifling
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2005, 11:42:32 AM »
I have a device from Iowegeon (may have not spelled that correct) that gives you the distance to the lands for each shape bullet you shoot in that rifle. It showed me that my rifles are deep throated. So much that many  light to medium bullets can not be loaded to .010" off the lands. In my 243 I would have to use a 85gr (and up) Sierra bthp to seat properly and be off the lands .010. I am now in the process of loading to this length and testing for accuracy.
Jim

Offline Slamfire

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Length to rifling
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2005, 03:37:31 PM »
I seated a round nose, flat based bullet upside down, and use that for my bolt face to land distance. It made a significant difference to seat 129 grain Hornady's in my Type 38 Arisaka out just short of that distance. Trouble is, the rounds don't feed well. The rifle appears to prefer the 140 spire points. They fit the chamber better'n the shorter 129s. The latter are seated out so far they may not stand much handlin'.   :?
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Offline MnMike

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Length to rifling
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2005, 04:49:34 PM »
I did consider that poking he round out would change the length. I don't want to engage the lands. I just wanted to get closer. The book called for an OAL of 2.64 and my rifle (from this primitive method) showed 2.81. I changed my dies to 2.760. We will see if that makes a difference. I won't get to shoot this for a couple of weeks.

mike
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Offline Iowegan

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Length to rifling
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2005, 06:15:27 PM »
As Jim in Iowa mentioned, I manufacture chamber tools for bullet seating depth and optimum case trim length. Check: http://www.cactustactical.com/reloading.html

I have done extensive testing with all types of rifles and calibers. Some basic info:
 
Make sure the bullet is seated to at least one bore diameter.
 
If you shoot a Sako, Tikka, or a newer Savage, they have a forcing cone in front of the free bore. This will spoof your measurements. The forcing cone concept is fantastic for out-of-the-box accuracy so you don't need to seat your bullets out farther.

If your gun has an eroded throat, seating the bullet out farther will help a little but is just a band-aid. The barrel will need to be replaced.

When you change bullet seating depth, it changes the chamber pressure and velocity. The farther out you seat the bullet, the lower the pressure and velocity will be. This means you will have to add a little powder to get the same velocity as a deeper seated bullet.  I recommend seating the bullet out to .010 off the lands then working up your powder charge for optimum accuracy. If you adjust your powder charge first, then change seating depth you will chase your tail because you change the pressure at each different seating depth.

The only reason for the .010" is the metal in the gun will expand in all directions when it gets hot. That means if you seat to touch the lands, you may have problems chambering a round on a hot gun. Contrary to what many people think, seating the bullet where it touches the lands does not increase chamber pressure.

One of the main accuracy issues is "bullet strike damage". This is where the bullet is seated deep and builds up a good head of steam before the bullet strikes the lands. This causes the bullet to be damaged slightly because a bullet seldom enters perfectly centered. Once the bullet is launched, it will whiffle and open the groups. If you can minimize bullet strike damage, you will see a vast improvement in accuracy.

Some guns are more problematic than others. Just because SAAMI sets chamber dimensions doesn't mean manufacturers always follow those specs. If your gun shoots well with recommended seating depth, there is no advantage in playing with bullet seating depth. If you have a gun with a deep cut throat, then seating the bullet out farther and maintaining your brass length will help accuracy a lot. Some throats are so deep that seating a bullet out to optimum length would not allow the cartridge to fit in the magazine or would violate the minimum of one bore diameter seating depth. In those cases, you just have to experiment to find an acceptable depth and powder charge.

I see a lot of chatter here on the forum about a particular gun having exceptional accuracy and another owner with the same brand, caliber, and model will respond with poor accuracy results. That's because the factory starts with a new chamber reamer (thus a deep throat) and continues to use it until it dulls or breaks. If you got the last barrel made before the reamer wore out, you would have a tight throat.  Recently I was testing a Remington 700 BDL in .223 Rem. It had the throat cut .060 deeper than SAAMI specs. I have a 700 ADL in 223 Rem with the tightest chamber I have ever seen. Factory ammo will not chamber without forcing the bolt. When you remove an unfired cartridge, there will be rifling marks in the bullet. The tight throat 700 ADL is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever fired and the deep throat BDL was one of the worst I have seen. It struggles to get 5" groups at 100 yds with factory ammo. Once the bullets were seated out, accuracy improved to about an inch at 100 yds. Unfortunately, the gun became a single shot because the cartridges wouldn't fit in the internal magazine. Meanwhile, the ADL will poke a sub-MOA group with about any ammo you can feed it.
GLB

Offline Jim n Iowa

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Length to rifling
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2005, 01:52:22 PM »
Gary
Sorry about the spelling, but I was trying to keep warm, and it was cocktail time. Happy Holidays, and to this thread also.
Jim