Author Topic: Here we go. (Read 2474 times)

magooch · « **on:** December 18, 2005, 03:53:35 AM »

The Dumbycrats and their accomplists in the media think President Bush has stepped in it with both feet with his admitting to approving electronic surveillance of suspected terrorists--sans a court order. This is going to be a full-blown, string em up, gotcha campaign. So hold on to yer hats, it's going to be a rough ride.

FWiedner · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2005, 07:06:11 AM »

The issue isn't that he approved the surveillance, or even that it's being conducted.

The issue is whether all of these activities are being performed within the boundaries of the law, and within the strictures of the Constitution.

Americans don't like being spied upon, and without reasonable cause, it is simply illegal under the 4th Amendment.

Whether or not he can use national security as a weak justification for violating the privacy rights of American citizens involved in nothing more serious than living their everyday lives, being President doesn't give him the unrestricted authority to do so.

There is every possibility that this activity will degenerate, if it has not already, into the very activity that the Nixon era Republicans used the same excuses and authorities for, and that is for collecting information about political rivals and Americans who are, or know, someone active in political dissent against the administrations activities.

.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2005, 03:38:27 PM »

At some point the word Terrorist needs to stop being used as a blanket to cover all of the governments attempts to trample the constitution and the bill of rights .

We have men and women dieing in the name of terrorism , And now we have the government spying on US citizens in the same name , There are legal ways to do this , They just chose to not use them .

When is it going to stop , When we have no rights left .

Shouldn't we be more concerned with keeping them out of our country .

Border crossing , North,South,East or West should be more important than phone taps .

Just my .02 worth

magooch · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2005, 07:53:26 AM »

Before you guys think something unique and nifarious has occurred, wait until you here all the facts. You are just a bit too quick to accept that this is something new; it's not.

Tell me how the NSA is supposed to get court approval to monitor a call that is detected that they suspect might contain critical information and that phone call might last only a minute or two. The only people who should oppose the ability of the governments ability to protect this country from terrorism is terrorists, or the paranoids.

Nixter · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2005, 09:28:09 AM »

Big Brother wants to listen to my phone calls?

Fine.

I just ordered a pizza, cheese, sausage, mushrooms and onions, thin crust.

Yesterday I talked to my Mom about her arthritis and emphasema (spelling?) as well what she bought for Christmas dinner.

They've been doing this for awhile folks. Use the British intelligence service to monitor US communications and report to us about what they hear. I forget the name of the Project but it is out there and has been for awhile.

If they were to prevent one terrorist attack on American soil, that would be a good thing. If they didn't prevent a terrorist attack and they have this technology, there would be people looking to string Mr. Bush from a pole. (not that they need a reason)

I may not like the idea of Big Brother listening to me on my phone and e-mails but when else is he going to listen? I have nothing to hide. Heck, I buy the guys in the plain white van in front of the house do-nuts once a week. I hold the ladder for the telephone line-man every week.

Might get flack for this but what the heck, it's how I feel.

Nixter

PA-Joe · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2005, 10:03:56 AM »

NSA like any other agency can have a 24/7 Judge assinged to them. Isn't this the same thing that Nixon was doing?

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #6 on:** December 19, 2005, 10:50:53 AM »

Quote from: PA-Joe

NSA like any other agency can have a 24/7 Judge assinged to them. Isn't this the same thing that Nixon was doing?

What's the difference between them not having the correct paperwork and having a judge assigned to them to rubber stamp any paperwork they want to submit? I'm kinda with Nixter, Law enforcement is your friend unless you're doing something to make them unfriendly. Then again, mistakes do happen. I heard last night that the CIA makes the wrong people disappear occasionally.

Ian

armory414 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2005, 10:55:33 AM »

No, not too different than what Nixon was doing. They have a reason that sounds a little better, though, than planning a campaign strategy. So if they tell us next that we should give up our guns, lest they fall into a terrorists hands, how should we respond? "Sure, go ahead, it's for the sake of national security?"

Nixter · « **Reply #8 on:** December 19, 2005, 11:40:49 AM »

Listen guys, "they' have been eaves -dropping on our telephone conversations and e-mails for a long time.

Guess what. The next President of the United States of America will use the information gained from these communications for "national security" no matter what we say.

So, go ahead, order that pizza. Tell your wife you are working late. Talk to the principal of your childs school about their performance.

And while you are at it, thank the men and women that make up Big Brother for watching out for terrorist activities.

Oh one more thing, if you are planning a Christmas party, invite your friendly NSA,CIA,FBI agent as well.

Nixter

Ps. To all of the good guys listening, you know where I am celebrating Christmas, you are all welcome, dinner is at 6 as you already know.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 19, 2005, 12:01:56 PM »

As, a somewhat jaded member of the American electorate, I always look forward to the Â“second term scandal seasonÂ”. The rationalizations offered by those who are the subject of the scandal and the defenses offered by their supporters, for the behavior that gave rise to the scandal, are usually predictable, as are the causes of the scandal; greed, sex, fear, ego and power,

Unfortunately, being a Republican is the subject of this scandal, sex will not be involved, which really limits itÂ’s entertainment value and itsÂ’ life span. For some reason sex holds our attention, but the lust for power and itsÂ’ abuse or greed is just blasÃ© in todayÂ’s politics. It is really ashamed that the Republican leadership is so preoccupied with who others are having sex with, instead engaging it themselves; it just makes their scandals so ho-hum.

The excuses being offered by the subject of this latest flap, and the defenses offered by his supporters, seem to follow the usual pattern; no comment, presidential authority, duty, etc.

Long ago I concluded that when political leaders are caught with there hands in the cookie jar, as it were, they begin to view the public the same as P.T. Barnum did, and it would appear that they are usually as well reward as Barnum was in this assessment.

Too bad about the sex though, constitutional abuse just doesnÂ’t stand a chance against carnal knowledge when it comes to a good scandal.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2005, 01:27:36 PM »

:toast: fe352v8-Let me buy you a beer. :-D

Leverdude · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2005, 02:40:58 PM »

Wrong is wrong period.
Its no justification to say they've been doing it all along, that just makes it wronger. IMO the paranoid folks are those that wish to wash the constitution down the drain for a sense that somethings being done.
I have nothing to hide either but still value my privacy. If they need to ask me something I'm here, all that needs be done is they ask. Seems some think this is only to deal with terrorism. Do you believe that once the terror threat is gone it will stop? Or what if as I believe it's never gone? Is it ok to give up our right to privacy forever so that MAYBE they get one or 2 terrorists someday?
Its a very rare thing for our Gov to relinquish something once they take it away.

These people hate us because of what we are & what we represent. I bet they love that they have America giving up freedoms they have never had.

Might be ok for them to hear you order a pizza but what about a call to a gunshop or a smith? No problem today, well what about next month or next year when they decide the gun you were having work done on is now illegal? Or maybe they just dont like the people you hang around with & think you may be doing something wrong only because of your companions.

Nope, theres a reason they aren't supposed to do this stuff & its more important than all the terrorists in the world, let alone one or two.

The biggest problem facing us is our Gov't doesn't have any moral principals anymore. Theres a limit to what they can legally do & a responsible Gov't would work within those parameters. Anything more or less is immoral.
Might be more inconvinient to alot of people but if they really wanted to stop terrorism it would be a simple matter of securing the borders & just not letting in anyone not a citizen. Screw Iraq & put those men presently deployed there on our borders securing OUR country.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2005, 07:23:56 PM »

Nightrain52

Thanks

I see you are from Indiana, spent a little of my mispent youth in Terre Haute, and went to school at IU, still have some familty there.

By the way there is on thing I like from Texas, that has a B in it

Shiner Bock

Have a Happy/Merry(choose one) ______________ (insert word of choice)

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** December 20, 2005, 12:44:01 AM »

To ALL who may be viewing this thread :shock: Merry Christmas and GOD bless you.
I have no paranoia but as one said "just because I am paranoid does not mean someone is not out to get me."
Folks, this little thing must be taken to its natural end an that could result in mass invasion of privacy and, well, who knows what-use your imagination-whether it is sick or not.
All, and I have seen it here by most of you folks-me too-have uttered things that could be taken out of context. My wife, the Hen, does it much of the time-lord help me if she ever concluded that I thought I needed a .50BMG.
Anywho, these folks are just folks like me and you and well like some of the idiots we all know. I do not trust many of the folks I know, much less those I do not know. These folks are too be trusted?

? Trust me on this--my check is good!
Blessings

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2005, 05:55:04 PM »

fe352v8 It just so happens I live about 20 miles east of Terre Haute. I grew up near a place called Tangier about 35 miles north of Terre Haute. Lived in this general vicinity all my life. Worked in Terre Haute about 15 years. Small world huh. Merry Christmas

Tn Jim · « **Reply #15 on:** January 01, 2006, 04:14:33 PM »

"Those willing to give up freedom in the name of safety, deserve neither". I don't have the quote exactly right, but you get the idea.

magooch · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2006, 02:50:10 AM »

I suppose things were much simpler in Ben Franklin's days. I don't give a crap about the civil rights, or freedoms of those who would do our country harm.

I maintain that none of this would ever have come to light under a Dumbycrat President, because the news media wouldn't think it was news worthy.

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2006, 03:41:04 AM »

...It sure would be tragic if the NSA listened to some terrorists in Europe or the middle east making plans to blow up both houses of congress TODAY...or turn loose sarin gas in the NY subways TODAY...or attach limpet mines on 4 or 5 cruise ships TODAY..
Worse yet I presume...if they dared do anything to stop it without a lengthy " court oprder"...

After all; the terrorist's rights are much more important than the lives of worthwhile American citizens.

These stupid moves are not being made just by Democrats...John McCain proposes an " Al Queda Bill of Rights !"...

Yes, John McCain was a hero of sorts...30 years ago...

Once a hero doesn't mean ALWAYS a hero...no matter what one says or does...

As I see it Alvin York and Audie Murphy were heroes until they died; Benedict Arnold, and Duke Cunningham were not...some lose their position through greed, lust or senility..

Heroes must be continually reviewed as to their " hero status"..

That goes for John Murtha also...

ironglow · « **Reply #18 on:** January 02, 2006, 03:44:58 AM »

...It sure would be tragic if the NSA listened to some terrorists in Europe or the middle east making plans to blow up both houses of congress TODAY...or turn loose sarin gas in the NY subways TODAY...or attach limpet mines on 4 or 5 cruise ships TODAY..

Worse yet I presume...if they dared do anything to stop it without a lengthy " court order"...that some "circus court" may deny for several days..

After all; the terrorist's rights are much more important than the lives of worthwhile American citizens.

These stupid moves are not being made just by Democrats...John McCain proposes an " Al Queda Bill of Rights !" for "Club Gitmo"......

Yes, John McCain was a hero of sorts...30 years ago...

Once a hero doesn't mean ALWAYS a hero; no matter what one says or does...

As I see it, Alvin York and Audie Murphy were heroes until they died; Benedict Arnold, and Duke Cunningham were not...some lose their position through greed, lust or even senility..

Heroes must be continually reviewed if we are to continue awarding them " hero status"..

That goes for John Murtha also...

FWiedner · « **Reply #19 on:** January 02, 2006, 07:50:08 AM »

Quote from: magooch

I suppose things were much simpler in Ben Franklin's days. I don't give a crap about the civil rights, or freedoms of those who would do our country harm.

I maintain that none of this would ever have come to light under a Dumbycrat President, because the news media wouldn't think it was news worthy.

The obvious fact that you are failing to get even a tiny grip upon is that it's an "all or none" proposition.

The law applies to everyone.

If you choose to make it routinely acceptable to ignore the civil rights and freedoms of the bad guys, you also choose to make it routinely acceptable to to ignore the civil rights and freedoms of the good guys.

By disgarding the foundation ideals that the Constitution, and thereby this nation, was founded upon, you disgard the very things that actually made this nation what it was intended to be.

How much harm do you think that will do to our country?

:shock:

powderman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 02, 2006, 01:27:11 PM »

I treasure my privacy and freedoms too, but also value my life. We are in a war with a Godless subculture of animal that has no rules, or morals concerning the lives of the innocent. I could care less about their rights, they have to be stopped, and stopped now. Unconventional war means unconventional measure to fight it. I have NO compassion for scum that see blowing up school children as Gods will. They strap explosives on their children and send them to hell, with a lie about paradise and virgins and young boys. Islam is a fast growing cancer. It's goal is world domination, by anhilating every man, woman, and child that is not muslim. They are satans disciples in every heinous deed they do. Wake up people and see them for what they are. Their mosques should be monitored, both inside, and outside. Their mosques are their lairs, where they preach hatred and intolerance. The woman taken prisoner whose jacket did not explode voiced regret that she didn't accomplish her goal of killing the children where she was sent. You feel sorry for that scum?

Not me. They should be dealt with as the mad dogs they are. I don't care how we get information from them if it saves innocent lives. This, of course, is just my opinion. POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 02, 2006, 05:12:32 PM »

Powderman

While i do agree with you on some things , I have to disagree with your saying that Islam is the problem .

The problem is islamic extreamists or any extreamist in general that places no value on human life that are the danger to everyone .

Sourdough · « **Reply #22 on:** January 02, 2006, 06:10:02 PM »

All the extreamist like to come here and hide behind our constatution, as they do their dasderdly deeds. We can't find them because we are too concerned that someone's constatutional rights might be violated. Our own constatution gives them the upper hand. I hear what you guys are saying about privacy, but times change. The enemy is well aware of our privacy desires and are willing to exploite it to their benifit.

Like someone else said earlier, I'm not doing anything I am concerned about them knowing. If they want to listen to my conversations they are welcome to do it. It's a small price for me to pay to maybe help prevent another tragidy. I spent 30 years working for the military where my phone conversations were subject to being monitored, and recorded. And the recordings came in handy a few times. Saved my tail more than once, proved me innocent of things I was accused of.

powderman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2006, 03:30:21 AM »

STIMPYLU23. Even the so called peaceful muslims all read, and are taught from the same book. They put their faith in mohamed and are taught his teachings, not Gods. He was a warrior, murderer, rapist, and a warlord, but certainly no prophet. In their koran, they are taught to hate ALL non muslims, even told to kill them. Too much innocent blood has been shed by, recent converts to islam. Malvo, snipers, the so called American soldier that fragged his brothers in arms. They all had one thing in common, recent converts to islam. I truly believe that islam is the problem. This of course is just my opinion. Gotta go to work. POWDERMAN.

Tn Jim · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2006, 03:30:53 AM »

Ironglow, I have come to the conclusion several years ago that John McCain is a closet Dumbycrat! His voting record bears this out. I've got the feeling that Murtha isn't far behind. Up until recently he just wasn't as vocal. And could someone tell me if I'm wrong (if I am I'm sure someone will), but I didn't think the Constitution afforded rights to anyone in this country if the weren't citizens?

magooch · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2006, 04:29:58 AM »

There is disagreement about Constitutional protection for non-citizens. I think it should depend on their status. It is simply assinine to afford any protection whatsoever to people who are here illegally. There are many who legally reside in, or are visiting this country who are not citizens; they deserve the protection of the Constitution.

Leverdude · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2006, 04:51:31 AM »

I'm not real sure but always believed the rights inumerated in the Constitution applied to all within our borders. The Constitution recognizes these rights as God given & I dont think God cares much what nationality one is.
As far as, like Iron Glow mentioned, monitoring calls overseas thats a nonissue as they certainly aren't afforded these rights. I havent looked into this thing much but think its pertaining to wire taps here not there.
If this is an effective, if anything we have done domestically since 9/11 is an effective way to stop terrorism here then why no results? There should have been dozens of arrests IN OUR COUNTRY if these comprimises to the Constitution were effective.

Powderman, I respect & value your views & I think we both know that.
But it seems to my way of thinking that if we blame Islam the way they blame Christianity then we are no better. Its not the Christian religions to blame for the lot of the terrorists & its not Islams fault some of these folks want us dead.

I think the crux of it all lies with power & the desire to have it. Bin Laden said, way before even the attack on the Cole that his group wanted the US & its western influence out of the Mid East. He & his ilk use religion to further their means no doubt. As long as we are there the Bin Ladens lose ground as the people see the good life & pull from the old ways. I'm not making an arguement for their actions but stating the way I see things.
If we never got involved in the Mid east I doubt very much we would be in the position we are. But its too late for that as its in the past. What we can do now IMO is #hit or get off the pot. If we need to have a presence over there we need to act appropriately. They dont seem to appreciate good will very much but certainly respect a strong, swift, unwavering authority. I say we give it to them. Take it, all we see the need for in the Mid east & hold it, decisively & unmercifully as we see fit. Not as friends or financieers but as someone with a vested interest thats going to stay untill they are done & not tolerate rebellion.
That or take all our interests & go home. No aid, no technology, no money, no nothing & if someone else wants to help them out let them know on no uncertain terms thet they are stepping on our toes & that wont be tolerated.

FWiedner · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2006, 05:31:19 AM »

Well then, here's the question:

Is our government or are it's agents bound by, and required to obey, our laws?

I believe that they are.

When the government acts in any capacity it is accountable to, and must act in accordance with, the laws that authorize the establishment of that same government in the first place.

If they do not adhere to the laws that are at their foundation, wherever they are and whomever they deal with, they are acting outside of the realm of their Constitutional authority.

What other peoples of the world do is governed by the laws of their land, and if they are within our borders, or in the custody of any branch of civilian or military law enforcement whose authority is drawn from our Constitution, they are bound by and subject to our laws, including those articles contained within the Bill of Rights.

:-)

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2006, 09:00:01 AM »

Just one other thing to put gas on the fire. When the President, Senators, and Congressmen are sworn to office don't they swear to defend and uphold the Constitution? Why aren't they doing it? Everytime we give up a little peice of the Constitution we give up a few more of our rights. Once the Government siezes absolute power we will be no better off than the countries we are fighting in now. The government once they get the power will constantly abuse that power. The dumbing down of America started years ago and we are seeing the results of it now and it is only going to get worse. Those of you that have General Motors vehicles with the Onstar system do you think it is for your benefit. Better think hard an long about your answer. Do you think the cable box you have that plugs into your phone jack to order movies is that what it is really for? Better think long and hard. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Leverdude · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2006, 12:16:41 PM »

Good point NT.
When mere mortals such as us take an oath its a crime to violate it. Not so when your in the elite tho. I dunno but me lying on the witness stand pales in comparison to our President or congress knowingly violating the Constitution.