Something to think about....

[PJ]

Pressure limits in the Contender.....This is something I was woundering about before I got a .444 Marlin barrel.I have seen the pic's of the .444 barrel blown apart.
The .444 Marlin case has a pressure limit of 44,000c.u.p.
The .225 Win case has a 50,000c.u.p.
Now both cases are used for wildcats I won't say by who... :roll: But,if you take a .444 case and neck it down the pressure or c.u.p. level will rise right?So how can these wildcats be safe?Now how about the .225 case just necking it up to say .243 or .257 will that lower the pressure level 6,000c.u.p. to put it at 44,000.......Hmmmmm not sure :roll: T/C said the Contender is rated to 45,000c.u.p."YES, I think the .444 is on the edge but, I think the others are even closer."

[Robert]

A reamer that we all know told me in his opinion the .444 based wilcats are too much for a Contender. I have a 375/444 that isn't suitable for a doorstop.  I still havent tried to send it in.  I dread what will happen.

[MePlat]

ROBERT;  May I inquire what is wrong with your 375/444.. I believe you were the one asking about the return policy at SSK.  If it is something they did call them and tell them about it.  If it is something you did call them and tell them about that too.  I just recommend that you talk with JD like you have some sense.  I think you would like that too if someone called you that had a problem with you or your product; right?
I think you will find SSK very helpful and will try to make good on the problem.

[Graybeard]

PJ, your basic premise is not correct.

Necking down a case has nothing to do with the pressure the original case operated at and any wildcat formed by necking it down operates at the pressure you load it to. No more and no less. The wildcats from SSK on this case have been tested to assure the loading data provided by SSK is safe in Contenders.

Same for the ones they do on the .225 Win. Case. I cannot and will not speak to what level of effort any other company does to test the safety of their load data as I am not as familiar with it as with what SSK does.

BTW the diameter of the base of the case is what determines what the maximum pressure that can be safely used along with such things as the taper of the case and how smooth or rough the chamber walls are.

More case taper less pressure allowed. Less case taper more pressure allowed. Slick smooth chamber walls don't grap like a rougher chamber and thus more back thrust is transmitted thus less pressure is allowable.

GB

[Paladin]

I think you might consider the diameter and weight of the projectile in the equation. the smaller and therefore lighter bullet takes less pressure to start it to move.

[Joe Kool]

I seen the pictures of the 444 barrel that burst, and I would like to offer an opinion on what I've seen. The barrel appears that it ripped from the opening at the breech. Was this rip caused too much pressure or a material failure? Could there have been a unseen, microscopic crack or an unseen void in the metal. An example is in the building of race car engines, brand new connecting rods are magnafluxed to show invisible cracks. Metal pieces for critical applications are x-rayed to find voids in the piece. I've examined pieces from engines and machines and sometimes a void can be seen in the break. The part was weak at that piont, that is why it broke there. I've machined pieces and cut into voids in the metal. Hot or cold rolled steels not just cast materials can have voids in them. Newly machined, never used, pieces will sometimes show cracks when magnafluxed, becused the cracks were there when the metal was rolled. It's not common but it does occasionaly occur. If this 444 barrel had an unseen void or a microscopic crack in the metal, at a high pressure point , it could have been the start of the rip. If a void was near the breech opening or a crack started at the breech end at ran so far up the length of the barrel, the pressure would cause the metal to spread like it did, if the rip started near the breech opening. There may be no design flaw in using a .470" diameter case base. There may not have been too much pressure in this particular cartridge. Just an uncommon flaw in the barrel.
Another possibility is that both locking bolts broke. The barrel opened or partially opened and the case backed partiallly out of the barrel and started the rip from the breech opening. I'm not saying that this what happened, I'm just posting a little food for thought.  

[MePlat]

I have an idea that this thread was started to just to have some controversy.  If PJ knows anything about reloading at all he knows that the pressure of wildcats depends entirely on the charge weight and type of power after the other components have been selected.  Not saying it is but this may be a sucker post just to get some responses.
But I could be wrong though.  If PJ  has read much about the Contender at all he should know that case head size determines permissible pressure and that even the 50/70 cartridge has been chambered in them with no trouble because they are low pressure.  Even though the 444 has a SAAMI max average pressure of 44,000 CUP we don't know what that is in PSI which is really the determining factor in casehead thrust.  As an example the 44 Mag is 40,000 CUP or 36,000 PSI SAAMI max allowable.  Could this be the same in the 444; lower psi than CUP. PSI is the figure that should be used.  Too bad that it is not published; only CUP.

[PJ]

All I was getting at is some say the 444 is not safe.If the 444 is not safe than how can any of the wildcats be.Its all in the way the reloader loads his ammo.

[Gregory]

As Graybeard said the diameter of the case base is the important factor.

To determine the pounds of force on the frame you need to calculate the area of the case base in square inches. (3.14x(diameter/2)2)
Then multiply the case area by the psi gives you the pounds of force.
Using the cup values (not exactly psi) for the two cartridges I get:
8781 lbs. for the 225 operating at 50,000 cup and .473 case head.
9125 lbs for the 444 operating at 44,000 cup and .514 case head.

[KN]

For one thing the 225 win cases body is almost .050" smaller than a 444.  KN

[Paul H]

All I was getting at is some say the 444 is not safe.If the 444 is not safe than how can any of the wildcats be.Its all in the way the reloader loads his ammo.

Simple, the wildcats are loaded to lower pressures then the parent case.  Just becuase a parent case is loaded to a paticular level, doesn't mean that a wildcat based off the case has to be loaded to the same pressure level.  Presure has absolutely nothing to do with what caliber a given case is necked to.  It has everything to do with what bullet, what primer, and what/how much powder.  You can load the 444 to 10 kpsi, or 60 kpsi, but if you want your contender to hold together, best bet is to keep it under 45 kpsi

I do agree that using the 444 as a basis for a wildcat, and loading it up to the performance levels folks seek in the contender is running on the edge of what the contender frame can handle.

[thomas]

SSK will NOT rechamber a barrel for 444 any longer.
The barrels he made were 430 a slightly shorter 444 and a little less pressure.
TC told me that the 444 may be asking for a hospital ride some day.
They also said factory loads for the 444 were PUSHING it in thier opinion and did not deem it safe to chamber a barrel for in the contender.
I could care less about what other shops think If TC is worried about it then I dont need one.
As for other wildcats based on the 444 case. I would bet SSK has done LOTS of research and felt they were safe.  He might accually have enough money to properly test a round.
EVEN a 45-70 can blow up a contender if HAND LOADED to Ruger#1 specs
No reason to PUSH the contender for a few FPS over a Supermag
Just get a ENCORE
As as a SIDE note.........MOST custom shops have NO INSURANCE or enough to take care of you should you BLOW your arm off with these WILDCATS  or the Funds to PROPERLY test a givin wildcat for pressures.
TC has such insurance. I will go with what they deem safe thank you.
tom

[Robert]

I am not saying that the 444 Wilcats are not safe with the appropriate load.  A 375 JDJ is a special catridge and should be re-loaded with-in it's limits.  Obviously JD dosent chamber a 375 H&H and just tell people to load it lighter. Somebody would come along and put factory ammo in it.  That is what happened with a 356 Winchester barrel that I bought.  J.D. chambers a 358 JDJ, not a 356 Win, or 358 Win, the factory loads would too hot.
  I have just not got around to sending this thing in, been busy.
And Thomas, I dont think you are right about the shorter cases.  J.D. recomends sizing NEW 444 brass, and NO TRIMMING is required.

[thomas]

NOPE not wrong the JDJ 430 is .100 shorter than the 444
And I asked him to rechamber a 44 Mag with a steped lug to a 444 and his answer was NO.
Asked him to build a NEW 444 for me and he said>>>>NO >>>but he did make a 430 JDJ for me.
Why would you think a 430JDJ is not shorter?
I have one
tom

[Robert]

I didnt know you were talking about the 430.

[Robert]

And anybody is entitled to DISAGREE.  We wuz just bouncing it around.  It's that Damned P.J again.  What a P.I.t.A.  Besides, everybody knows, Contenders arent worth the scrap iron they are made of.  Ha Ha.

[TopGun]

Gee, I have a 10" 44 mag rechambered to 444 by SSK for 8 yrs now. I shoot everything through it from factory Rem 265 which are an absolute handfull, to full bore 300 gr Sierras. I think, as do some other people do, that know guns, that POSSIBLY someone attempted to add additional holes for a scope base. If this is done incorrectly, ie too deep or oversize holes are drilled, the chamber can be weakened greatly, or should i say dangerously! Case head size is the major determining factor to safety in teh Contender AND Encore. SSK will SAFELY chamber belted magnums of 375H&H parent mag case size. NO LARGER! In the TC, the 444 wildcats are not any higher pressure than a factory 444! Why do you think you can load a 309JDJ but not a 308 Winchester of smaller case head diameter in a Contender? purely Working pressure. BUT, efficiency is another matter all in itself. That's why a 309 can get close to a 308 Win in same barrel length when comparing Encores and Contenders.  IMHO, I think the blown 444 was either a bad job or big overload. And yes, the 430 JDJ was designed 1/10th shorter. Probably for older barrels?  Note: alot of guys think that just because they have a 30-30 contender, they can use much hotter loads. This is only true to a small extent. Brass life is shortened greatly. The real benefit is really only being able to use better, more aerodynamic bullets in a shorter barreled gun over a round or flat nose out of a lever gun. As far as SSK goes--call and ask respectfully without being overly angry and agressive, state your case and ask for them to check it out. JD has kept me on the phone of hrs talking about this stuff. His barrels are the only aftermarket 's I use his cartridges in, and I have 4. He designed them, he knows them, and he can fix or replace them.  He is the fore-father of TC Wildcats and guns. Good luck, and stay away from basement gunsmiths and their projects. SSK extensively tested the Encore for 2yrs before anyone even heard about it., and the same goes for the G2 thing. Personally, They have never steered me wrong.  They know what is and isn't safe!

[PJ]

That's FUNNY when I called SSK I asked him to rechamber my 44mag to the 430jdj.He said "NO" I don't recamber the 430 anymore but,I will rechamber it to a 444 :roll: Hmmmmmm What is up!

[thomas]

He is Just getting Cranky and tired
I got the exact opposite answer.
And it really seems STRANGE he would do a regular chambering over his proprietary round?
That don't add up
But hey it is his bussiness and he makes the rules which may CHANGE day by DAY.
He does GREAT work.
tom