Author Topic: 12GA FH(From He!!) (Read 57451 times)

hubel458 · « **Reply #150 on:** November 01, 2008, 02:50:43 PM »

Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #151 on:** November 02, 2008, 09:15:53 PM »

Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #152 on:** November 07, 2008, 05:19:37 PM »

See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

NFG · « **Reply #153 on:** November 08, 2008, 08:27:47 AM »

What did you do to lengthen the Sav 210 mag? Cut and glue two mags? What glue/adhesive did you use?

Thanks

hubel458 · « **Reply #154 on:** November 08, 2008, 09:01:21 AM »

WE cut the plastic to the back of magazine and that process
made room for longer case and we made the back of magzine open.
Then I found a square heavy wall plastic case used as a reamer/drill
tube It was about 8" long and we shortened it and We cut it so it
fit over rest of the magazine bottom and sides and had it extend
back to cover cutout area. Glued it with High strength epoxy
like JB Weld. Anf in back area used a small radius of epoxy to
glue to stock where we cut out Spray painted black to match
stock. The original bottom and sides
of box still there to support follower spring. Ed

NFG · « **Reply #155 on:** November 08, 2008, 07:59:13 PM »

Thanks Ed...I've been following your progress all along the way. I did some loads with Lyman 525 gr, James Gates biggies and BP slugs in 3" plastic cases. Most of them are hairy enough to beg for mercy in my Mossberg 500 and Rem 870 at 8-9 lbs OEM weight.

Once I've finished my 45-100/110 project load workup I want to do something in the 3.5" 12 ga arena. I'm still looking for a used Sav 210 cheap enough for me and have a couple of local shops looking also. It would be easier if I just bought one online but I way to paranoid to do that, plus I want to look over a shooter I'm interested in. I'm also thinking about just doing a barrel on an NEF, but I wanted something several inches longer.

Keep on keeping on...

hubel458 · « **Reply #156 on:** November 08, 2008, 08:59:38 PM »

I'm plan on testing Lymans in the future when I can get
them. In the NEF, Encore and smoothbore 87.Ed

NFG · « **Reply #157 on:** November 09, 2008, 08:38:11 AM »

I'm looking at a Lyman 525 slug right now...measures 0.800 OD after going through one 16 dry pine round and about 1" into the one behind it. I like the "wasp waisted" look. The "skirt" collapsed and formed into the slug nose and slug ended up 0.590" long. OEM is 0.685 OD nose, 0.670" OD skirt and 0.800" long. This is the only slug I recovered...all the rest ended up out in the forest.

I can't find the load data and wouldn't post it anyway, but I started with the 2 3/4" components supplied in the Gardner's Cache kit, http://gardnerscache.com/12_gauge_sabot_slugs.html, then went on to Rem 3" cases and data from Lymans Shotshell Reloading book and BRI data, Blue Dot, SR 4756, Univ Clays, and data gleaned from your posts. I went beyond published data quite a ways in some cases and was well above 1800 fs. Calculated recoil was in the 85 ftlb plus ranges for a 7.5 lb shotgun and I could hardly hold the shotgun, standing, firing over the chrono.

I backed off from this project until I can build a heavier dedicated gun...I'm fairly recoil proof but popping off several of these loads not to mention the 700 grain plus loads isn't ANY fun at all, caused my whole body to vibrate and shake uncontrollably and I didn't want to plug my Beta by mistake.

My requirements are for a fairly quick handling, controlable defensive gun with ballistics well beyond my other large cal rifles. My 460 Boondoggle McWildman was one excursion into that realm and the 12GAFH is another...maybe a good old double barreled shooter would suffice if I could find one that would stay in one piece at these elevated ballistic levels.

hubel458 · « **Reply #158 on:** November 09, 2008, 09:38:57 AM »

Please leave that Picture hosted, as I want to
post it all over and the info you have with it.
Did it keep most of the weight, looks like it?
As for comfy gun to shoot, a hollow butt plastic
stock on the Mossy can hold 5 bs lead shot
and epoxy like the "RIP" gun I showed above.
And if thumbhole a quarter easier to shoot..Ed

NFG · « **Reply #159 on:** November 09, 2008, 01:59:17 PM »

I have wood stocks on both shotguns and didn't want to do any fiddling until I decided which way to jump. Adding weight is easy enough to do and I've been checking out the available thumbhole stocks also. Lots of things to consider before doing a dedicated shooter.

An individual average weight for 10 was 523.6, recovered slug weighed 516 g so it lost less than 8 gr. This is a hard cast slug. Going through 18" of hard pine and staying in one piece is a pretty tough test of a bullets integrity, plus it didn't go silver dollar on me as some of the softer case bullets will do. Expanding to 0.800" isn't all that much and would certainly leave a large exit wound plus liquefying the innards. The impact was from 35 ft away.

I found my 12GAFH notebook...no wonder I couldn't find it....it was where it belonged with my other data notebooks.

I used your SR 4759 data...stopped at 95 gr because the cases wouldn't hold any more with a crimp. Velo in the 24" cyl bore tube Mossy averaged 1940 fs...load was 95g SR4759, 1 PGS, Lyman 525 inside a WAA12 with the cup cut off, 3" Rem steelshot cases 6pt crimped.

I loaded them using a Lee Load-All. It worked fairly well and works OK for the amount of shotgunning I do, but I couldn't get enough pressure on the column to keep the crimp tight and locked down. When I start up again I will buy a different loader. I will also go with the brass cases.

I reduced the load to 80 gr SR4759 and used a roll crimp for 10 loads. These were much more manageable and work great in the 18.5" Mossy barrel.

80gr of H4227, 2 3/4" Rem case roll crimped, 525 Lyman did 1874 fs. I think I tried the 730g Dixie with 75 gr H4227 and crawled away crying.

I tested SR4759, H4227 and Blue Dot in 2 3/4" and 3" Rem and WW compformed and cup based cases with 6, 8 pt and roll crimps and Lyman 525. I didn't write down any 730gr slug data for some unknown reason...maybe one was enough.

Rem 3" Slugger 1 oz Mag, advertised at 1760 fs, gave 1630 fs and Win 2 3/4" rifled slugs, advertised at 1600fs, did 1545 fs in the Mossy 24".

This is as far as I went.

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #160 on:** November 10, 2008, 06:05:44 AM »

Ed,

Is that a Tracker II in the photo? Did I read the thread right, 715 grain at 1400fps in the NEF? Would you consider making a box of those up for folks?

Ron

hubel458 · « **Reply #161 on:** November 10, 2008, 06:54:14 AM »

Ron that is my 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.It has miuch
heavier barrel and heatreated action that the Tracker
doesn't have. It is called the SB2 model.
That 1400 gr was tested in a brass RMC case, I only
have 10 cases for testing and a couple slugs left.
I just tested a few for a point of information for a guy.
In 12 gauge I don't push the ultra heavy slugs as it is
harder to get powder combinations that work and most
shotguns handle recoil terribly from heavy slugs.ED

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #162 on:** November 10, 2008, 07:14:52 AM »

Ed,

I thought that was the Ultra slugger.....I had to put most of my projects on hold for a while. I just saw the photo and read the posts and thought, WOW! I need to start them again. Ed what would you recommend I get for loading the brass and slugs for the 12 gauge and where would be a good starting point for the tracker 2? As always, Thanks.

Ron

hubel458 · « **Reply #163 on:** November 10, 2008, 11:53:47 AM »

Are you going go with 3" chamber in the gun and what is
the exact OD of the muzzle, as that determines what loads
to use. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #164 on:** November 10, 2008, 06:51:49 PM »

Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #165 on:** November 15, 2008, 04:55:25 PM »

Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, bur
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting over 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime..ED

hubel458 · « **Reply #166 on:** November 23, 2008, 06:30:37 AM »

Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. This work on the stock/action can be done in a
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and mazine needs 3.25", for 3.0" brass if long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dicie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4"...Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #167 on:** December 03, 2008, 04:27:16 PM »

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #168 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:32:34 PM »

Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #169 on:** December 09, 2008, 07:08:35 PM »

More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #170 on:** December 12, 2008, 06:54:09 PM »

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #171 on:** December 17, 2008, 05:56:20 PM »

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #172 on:** December 20, 2008, 04:19:48 AM »

Ed,

Sorry this took so long, life between hunting seasons and holidays are a zoo. The outside diameter of the tracker II is .891 inches. The barrel thickness at the muzzle is .122 inches. I would still like to think that 400 grains at 2200 fps would be doing, but I could be wrong. I would like to stick too 3 inch if possible. I still have this idea of pushing a woodliegh weldcore sabot to that speed. This round would be a bear round. Thanks again for all your advice.

Ron

hubel458 · « **Reply #173 on:** December 20, 2008, 11:14:10 AM »

Ron- The muzzle on the Savage 210 and Mossberg 695 rifled 12ga
are .93" and I didn't use them for hopped up heavy slug loads.
Your lighter barrel would do for hopped up 350gr xtp in a BPI sabot.
I feel there is no reason to take a chance with heavy slugs
when NEF ultras, with scope mounts are
all ready to go, and are inexpensive.Ed

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #174 on:** December 20, 2008, 01:30:30 PM »

What would specs on a 350 grain xtp look like? I like the Ultras but they are really heavy to carry all day. I would like to work on a bear load for when I do hiking. That tracker is about 6 pounds. I would think that a pump action would be worse to deal with for hotter loads. Most folks talk about having more rounds available then a better placed shot. I have read quite a bit and spend a lot of time on the Alaskan Boards. Some do carry 12 GA, but all say more shots is better. I have a 375 H&H to carry, but my wife would like something lighter for her, so the tracker II fit. As always ED, thanks for your insight.

Ron

hubel458 · « **Reply #175 on:** December 20, 2008, 02:53:51 PM »

Ron- in 3" plastic you could go about about 2100 fps with 350 gr in sabot,
1900 with a 400gr in sabot.The BPI sabots actually work best with
.512" slugs as opposed to .500" slugs. I tested 437gr and 385 gr .512"
in 3.5" cases. If that 400gr slug you like is 50cal(.512") it would work to reload your
own in BPI sabots. Or does Woodleigh have them with sabots
set up for 12ga.. Ed

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #176 on:** December 21, 2008, 01:19:39 AM »

Ed,

Truly then something like the winchester supreme is as close to max as possible in the Tracker II. 385 grains at 2000 fps. My only concern is, is that whitetail slug tough enough for bear protection. Woodleigh doesn't have sabots. Do you know of a tough 12 ga bullet for tough bears?

Ron

hubel458 · « **Reply #177 on:** December 21, 2008, 04:11:32 AM »

Dixie hardened 600gr .Lyman 525 cast from hard alloy.
The 500gr xtp in BPI sabot. Hammerhead 540 gr,
Lightfield 460 gr.Any good 50cal jacketed 4-500gr in BPI
sabot. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #178 on:** December 22, 2008, 05:18:31 PM »

There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #179 on:** December 27, 2008, 05:01:26 PM »

The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run slug
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster. Also have testing all done
and loads set for 12ga Encore. It is set up for 3.5" plastic
and brass cases for strong loads. I like to sell it to someone
who likes the style. If interested contact me.Ed