Author Topic: 12GA FH(From He!!) (Read 57450 times)

hubel458 · « **Reply #240 on:** September 24, 2009, 08:00:09 PM »

I checked for cracks and hardness. I'm only loading 3" plastic cases
and miking the basecups of the fired cases RE17 loads shows only
half the expansion of factory slug or mag shot loads. I'll keep an eye
on it. Also it is mounted in a much much stronger stock than original
which supports the action better.Something New-

Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise readt to be crimped...Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #241 on:** October 02, 2009, 09:20:37 PM »

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.
On the net- ammunitiontogo.com
This one is about 500 gr.

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed

Brithunter · « **Reply #242 on:** October 03, 2009, 12:26:00 AM »

Sorry but I don't like plastic touching a rifle bore as plastic fouling is worse to remove than a bit of lead.

hubel458 · « **Reply #243 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:59:04 PM »

Some plastics foul, some don't. The hard plastic on
Brenekkes, Hammerheads, Buckhammers, Lightfields,
doesn't for me in NEF. But I got a good polish on that
from shooting hairy loads. Some wadcups do with Lymans.

Some more testing with RE17 powder. I used it in 2.75",
3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the
best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our
long case with BMG primer.
Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi.
I took couple of our first made 3.85" BMG based
long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers
to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug
and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in
BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus.
Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus
slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel.
But that is great- nice as it seems we're being copied!!!ED

peternap · « **Reply #244 on:** October 08, 2009, 09:15:44 AM »

Hubel, I've been following your threads all over the net for a long time now. The one on cast boolits is starting to become a book. Sooner or later I'm going to rechamber an H&R barrel to 12ga FH, but right now I'm still working on lesser things.

Have you used RE17 in 3" BPI Multi Hulls with the Lyman Sabot slug?

If so, could you give some loads? The mold should be here tomorrow and since .735 balls didn't work too well, I want to try something new.
Thanks and keep up the good work!

hubel458 · « **Reply #245 on:** October 09, 2009, 10:24:18 AM »

Ok- This info is for everyone to remember, no matter what cases.
With RE17 any load load I give for plastic cases of a certain length will
work for any plastic brand for that length. Because the RE17 is such an
easy starting powder, starting much slower to get to peak pressures,
that differences in hulls has no appreciable effect
on peak pressures. You can't do that with shotgun powders.

The Lymans cast out at about 520 gr weight.

For 3" case with RE17 and a 520 gr Lyman in WW12-114 wadcup,
use 90-110gr of RE17. All it will hold is about 110gr.Ed

peternap · « **Reply #246 on:** October 09, 2009, 02:53:13 PM »

Quote from: hubel458 on October 09, 2009, 10:24:18 AM

Ok- This info is for everyone to remember, no matter what cases.
With RE17 any load load I give for plastic cases of a certain length will
work for any plastic brand for that length. Because the RE17 is such an
easy starting powder, starting much slower to get to peak pressures,
that differences in hulls has no appreciable effect
on peak pressures. You can't do that with shotgun powders.

The Lymans cast out at about 520 gr weight.

For 3" case with RE17 and a 520 gr Lyman in WW12-114 wadcup,
use 90-110gr of RE17. All it will hold is about 110gr.Ed

Thank You Sir!
I got the mold today, going bow hunting tomorrow, casting and loading Sunday and testing Monday.

hubel458 · « **Reply #247 on:** October 13, 2009, 12:39:03 PM »

So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is
europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed

peternap · « **Reply #248 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:26:22 AM »

Quote from: hubel458 on October 13, 2009, 12:39:03 PM

So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is
europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed

Dear Lord!

They look expensive!

hubel458 · « **Reply #249 on:** October 20, 2009, 09:37:33 PM »

The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug a while back.
He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to get
after their dealers to work to import these for them..

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #250 on:** October 24, 2009, 06:34:29 PM »

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup
with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was
kind enough to send me a few of each weight
to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right.
They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in
3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and
in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both.
With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug
is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My
smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle,
a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth
bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle,
and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot
kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a
heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle,
1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug
gun with slugs like these, and others like the
Brenekkes, I have spare one. It is 30", chrome
moly alloy, super strong, nice an shiny inside
and out. Plenty of metal for any contour.
Good for bolt guns like Savage,Mossberg.ED

hubel458 · « **Reply #251 on:** October 27, 2009, 07:40:51 PM »

I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set
up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with
feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I
had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer
than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding
long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The
700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture
case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under
extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is
the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed
for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together.
Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED

hubel458 · « **Reply #252 on:** November 04, 2009, 05:44:38 PM »

The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000
in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group
at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with
for smoothbores.
Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled
barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long
brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting
on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype,
third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some,
as it is much easier way. First in picture is
16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long,
3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.

I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including
two Savages in the mix....SO I'm selling the first
12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action.
Its in original Savage stock, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel.
It is chambered for the original 3.85" long 12GA FH.
750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and
30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage
and the second 12GA FH ever built.IN classifieds above.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #253 on:** November 18, 2009, 07:15:24 PM »

Matthew in Oregon got the 12GA FH Savage.
He is now in the recoil club.

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5"
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed

rickt300 · « **Reply #254 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:23:52 AM »

After reading every page of this thread I came to some extrapolation. I noticed that you used the 20 gauge Lyman slug designed to fit into shotcups in brass cases designed for the 28 gauge. 8 gauge difference. So by the same extrapolation (guesswork) could I use the 12 gauge Lyman slug designed to go into a shotcup in a brass cased 20 gauge shell? Or should I start with the 20 gauge Lyman slug in shot cups? I like what your saying about Reloder 17, could I use this powder in a 20 gauge? And about primers? So many questions.

hubel458 · « **Reply #255 on:** November 20, 2009, 09:03:19 PM »

The 12ga lyman fits tight in the 16ga brass cases I have.
I have a die to shove them through for 16 ga use.To big for 20ga.

You'll have to use 20 ga lymans in shotcup.RE 17 will work great in
20ga, in fact it has taken a deer this fall in 20 ga with a scoped gun
at 150 plus yards. It works in all from 8ga on down. I like REM primers
the best as they dent in the center easiest.And work best if firing pin
strike isn't perfect..ED

hubel458 · « **Reply #256 on:** November 24, 2009, 05:56:45 PM »

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #257 on:** November 30, 2009, 09:12:11 PM »

4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes
time.

We will have swaged lead slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done,
a hundred of them at least.
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #258 on:** December 07, 2009, 10:34:10 PM »

Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a
cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim
puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #259 on:** December 15, 2009, 03:25:52 PM »

Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
glued on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #260 on:** December 20, 2009, 05:34:44 PM »

Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #261 on:** December 26, 2009, 06:46:55 PM »

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #262 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:55:45 PM »

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #263 on:** January 06, 2010, 07:36:46 PM »

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #264 on:** January 12, 2010, 08:17:38 PM »

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #265 on:** January 19, 2010, 07:05:10 PM »

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me... Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #266 on:** January 22, 2010, 06:30:22 PM »

A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #267 on:** January 30, 2010, 05:50:32 PM »

Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires of RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Whoopee.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #268 on:** February 05, 2010, 09:09:38 PM »

Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

gstewart44 · « **Reply #269 on:** February 06, 2010, 01:53:07 AM »

Quote from: hubel458 on February 05, 2010, 09:09:38 PM

Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

Ed - this is interesting....what would this beast weigh and how long would it be? How is your forearm protected from the flash coming from the front of the cylinder?