12GA FH(From He!!)

[hubel458]

I don't know much about it, I don't think it is sold here.
It is Russian mfg.Barrel is legal length. Maybe 10 lbs.Ed

[hubel458]

The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice  lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot  style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs  in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed

[hubel458]

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west  has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed

[hubel458]

The heavy rifled barrel  in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is  560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

[Cheepshooter]

Ed, I posted to you on another forum, but I don't know which ones you check and how often, so I have copied that post here. Sorry for being redundant.

Ed,

I registered on this forum just now specifically to ask you a couple questions.

I've read all the posts on all of the forums I could find where you were talking about the 12FH, 499HE, 700HE, etc. I have to say that I'm almost more impressed with your ability to post your developments across such a wide range of forums for so long than with the actual development. That is saying a lot since I'm thoroughly impressed with your developments.

So here are the questions:

1) I talked to E.R. Shaw about their 12 and 20 gauge barrels. They only offer uncontoured blanks, but the price is great. I think you used one on your Savage 210. Was the outside concentric enough with the bore that you didn't have to turn it down any? If I could leave it heavy and just thread it, that would be ideal for me.

2) I am waiting on written clarification from the ATF, but since you've been through this with the 700HE, you may know the answer. My intention is to build a cartridge using a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs case blown out straight to hold a .615-.620 dia (20 gauge) projectile. Since this isn't a shotgun round, I'll need to get a DD exemption from the ATF. No problem. Once I'm done, I intend to build a rifle on a Mauser style action using a Shaw 20 gauge rifled allow barrel. What I'll end up with is essentially a rimmless 3" or 3.25" 20 gauge bolt action magazine rifle. The question is this: Once I get a DD exemption for the cartrdige, do I then ALSO have to submit the rifle for exemption? It seems redundant, but I want to be one the safe side.

Thanks again for all the exciting work you do.


Jpt

[hubel458]

My 12ga barrel was from Pacnor. We never could get heavy barrels delivered
from shaw in 12ga. Mine started at 1.5" od then i put straight taper on it.
Shaw barrels will be concentric  enough like Pacnor. How big of
OD can you get from them now and what's price.And the length.
We never could get 30 inch we wanted from them either.

When you make your application to ATF you tell them that it is for-
bolt action, break action, falling block action, sporting guns.
And they'll let you do it in them without having to look at the gun.

BUT you can't straighten out a Gibbs case enough to  620" bullets.
My 585H 2.7" case on Gibbs about as straight as you can go.
Being short it headspaces on mouth and extractor. We are putting
them in Mauser, Win, Ruger, Enfields, etc. Or  do my longer 585HE
belted case. I got reamers, dies, cases.And there is a belt for headspace.
or go to a 600 NE as you can get cases from Huntingtons.
Or go to a 3.5 inch 20 ga like I doing with my FBW falling block
and a bunch of us are getting RMC to make 3.5" brass cases.
And you can shoot the hotrod 3.5" plastic slug loads.
Or you could do a bolt action like the Savage 220  20 ga ready to go.
My FBW is in the pic.ED

[Cheepshooter]

Ed,

Thanks for the thoughts.  I hadn't considered the thickness of the brass at the mouth.

Shaw says they have a 1.25" diameter rifled blank in 12 or 20 gauge for $145 shipped.  I think it is only 24-26" long.  There is a 4-6 month wait.

What I think I hear you say on the destructive device, is that if I go with the 585 HE Short, then I don't have to submit an application for the rifle since the cartridge has already been accepted.

Jpt

[hubel458]

Yes the 585s are all set. And I got dibs on
many thousands of rounds. Also you can get the 20ga
3.5"  guns like NEF and get brass cases made, though
it takes time.
My 585 Short HE will go in mausers, rugers
enfield, savages, etc. Anything that takes a 30-06
length case.
The long 585HE one goes in bigger actions
that will take Gibbs case. Like CZ550, Big Rugers,
BBKs, Enfields,MRC PH, etc.Ed

[jro45]

I have a 10ga with slugs barrel is 28" long Will have to run these slugs threw a conagraph.
They are suppose to go 1280 fps. They are 1 3/4 oz.

[hubel458]

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies,  parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.Makes a great 10ga FH...ED

[hubel458]

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
I even have cast slugs for 700.
 Cases are expensive, ones in picture are
20 bucks each...Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available  supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed

[msorenso]

Very tempting 

[hubel458]

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of  RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE  STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

[msorenso]

What action is this 4 bore built on???

[hubel458]

This is the falling block I made. Pictures further up in
the thread, and it's a different concept fir falling
blocks in that it is in a one piece thumbhole stock.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have  that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED

[LONGTOM]

Man ED, you all are getting way above me with these things.
Have no desire for anything that big.
That being said, I still like the idea of the 499HE though.
The only reason I haven't sent a barrel to you for that round is I would like to have a longer barrel than the 22" 500 S&W barrel that comes on the Handis.
Maybe a 26" would be nice.
Then again, a simple re-chamber of a factory barrel sure sounds a lot easier.
Still thinking about it!



LONGTOM

[hubel458]

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top..
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi.. Ed

[hubel458]

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.

Double 760gr ball load of  1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at  2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed

[hubel458]

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of the RMC brass  20ga 3.5" with
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is  the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L  will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. EDd

 

 

[hubel458]

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. 4 rear bolt lugs.Singleshot.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed

[drdougrx]

I THINK I'm keeping up...and in awe!!!

Thanks for sharing!

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed