12GA FH(From He!!)

[hubel458]

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized  12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
 box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so  case
and protruding slug will be  2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800  at least.Ed

[hubel458]

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck.
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for
mass production by me, cases too hard to make.
An experiment with necked cases.
Picture of the case later.Ed

[hubel458]

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5"  plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.Ed

[hubel458]

Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight
base expansion.  About .001" above base.
Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO

[hubel458]

20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Very slight
case expansion above base.
Another load style- 12 number 1 buckshot,
about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga
card in the brass case over the shot.
Few more guys coming,  having fun
shooting the 4bore this summer. Ed

[hubel458]

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at  40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.Ed

[hubel458]

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug,  with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and  about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel  at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and  6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.


This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in  rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound......Ed

[hubel458]

About slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer  in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If  auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power
as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load.
Don't leave  air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals
like in plastic cases..Ed

[hubel458]

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga.
The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to
fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed

[hubel458]

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have  585 Hubel Super Magnum, HSM. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L..ED

[hubel458]

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of  3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test  a few in trusty ole Enfield  I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED

    

 

[hubel458]

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok.  3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed

[hubel458]

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.You can also cast .69-.70
lead slugs for wadcup use. Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr  for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed

[hubel458]

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, big barrel breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

[hubel458]

More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions.  Nice
to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to
600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s  along with
the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,
as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can
get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED

[hubel458]

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

 

[hubel458]

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one
gets a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

[hubel458]

The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
 sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

[hubel458]

Some wonder if caring for about foster slug accuracy at 200 feet
or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it
at 20% of the cost you've  made a big gain. And most deer here are
killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups,
with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front
of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than
foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the
long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the
wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the
forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the
accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long.
The longer the nose heavy slug/sabot combo is, the truer it flies.
And most of these combinations work in brass cases with
thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight for my cases. Ed

[hubel458]

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr  45cal balls at  1800,
all zip through  3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and  wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
slugs to test later..

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know.  750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

[hubel458]

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real  magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used  239 Fed primers. Lighter  slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50  Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

 In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
 and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with heavy slugs
or cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Some guys trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere  it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

[hubel458]

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED

[GrassLakeRon]

Ed,

     In your experience with the handi and "hot loads", what do you believe the true max pressure is in a handi?  50k, 55k, or 60k psi?  Thanks

Ron

[hubel458]

With 12ga with long brass cases on the
12ga Ultra on the SB2 10-12ga, big frame,
30,000 psi.

Now handi-rifles run rifle pressures, like  30-06 at 60,000 psi.
but the reason they can do that is the case diameter
is much smaller so that breach thrust is about the same as the
brass case 12ga loads above.

My one SB2 I have the 585HE barrel monoblocked in,
I run at 45,000 max. as that case diameter is half way between
a 30-06 and the 12ga.Ed

[hubel458]

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga 
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed

[hubel458]

More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.
It is a BPGS type seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from a 16ga wad cup.
Like bottom of trap commander wad.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed

[hubel458]

Here are some  20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed