12GA FH(From He!!)

[hubel458]

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.
The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The
long brass has shotgun primers.
I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed

 

[hubel458]

The long brass 8ga cases have same thick
sides as plastic cases. And there are long
plastic/paper cases out there, but they
are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber
fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing
easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with
locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by
screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in
smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr.
10ga is 900 gr.Ed

[hubel458]

New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two  lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed
 

[hubel458]

Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs  could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed

[hubel458]

Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down a few days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier, doing in
an Enfield bolt gun.  Got 630gr slug  2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on base.

Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
 in my 700H 3.25.
I got some of the work done on 8ga, in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured
earlier in one piece stock.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed

[hubel458]

Experimenting for fellows trying to get  speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in  2 5/8"  length brass
 cases for where length is limited..

Using  770 gr sabot slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
These are long sabot slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space  for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17  about 1350 fps. Both of these all  case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just  seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest  shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

 So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug  with
65gr 4759 got 1650.  You can put in more Steel but cases stick more.They won't
blow up, just stick. And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago,  same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can  use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places. ED

[hubel458]

Answering questions;  bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes  jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum.. 
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed

[hubel458]

You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great
craftsmanship.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun  in 1st picture.

Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on  4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed

 

 

[hubel458]

Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
 with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed

[hubel458]

Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd  a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed
 
 

[hubel458]

A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz  4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge
is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED
 

[hubel458]

Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed
    
 

[gstewart44]

Ed,
What is the weight of this 4 bore?    Unless I have missed something my rough calculations indicate this monster would generate at least 2.5 - 3 times the amount of recoil of a .50 BMG.......   do you have it set up on an armored tracked vehicle? 

[hubel458]

My 4bore falling block is 28 lbs - the 8 ga falling block 24.

Al's 4ga pump about 12 lbs. But due to thin barrel
it don't get loaded like falling blocks. Its top load would
only be 2 oz  at  1600, 3 oz at 1300.

And on mine, thumbhole cuts felt recoil by a 1/4,and
double thick pads help out. If muzzle climbs
too much we port the top of barrels at the muzzle.Ed

[hubel458]

Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup,  And  690gr  hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is  the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed
  

[hubel458]

That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our  3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge  step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right  see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed
 

[hubel458]

More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic  seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over  to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED
 
 

[hubel458]

Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..

Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED
 

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.

1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed

[hubel458]

Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

Cases  FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has  own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels-  1.32" at breech- 1.070 muzzle.Ed

 

 

[hubel458]

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Have a switch barrel 28ga/585.
Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed

[hubel458]

I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do  2000 in a little  longer
brass case from RMC.

28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.

The Brenneke slug has a long locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super  light slug designs...ED

 

[hubel458]

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore  .729"  It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed

[hubel458]

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could 
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed

 

[hubel458]

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

Third is  Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1  1/8 oz.

Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.

If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-

[hubel458]

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2  5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed.

[hubel458]

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
 that we had made. Good for 2300 in  3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200  ----   770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr  000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at  about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed