Author Topic: 12GA FH(From He!!) (Read 57457 times)

hubel458 · « **Reply #210 on:** May 10, 2009, 04:41:58 PM »

Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #211 on:** May 15, 2009, 11:00:20 PM »

I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED

hubel458 · « **Reply #212 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:45:49 PM »

Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed

AtlLaw · « **Reply #213 on:** May 22, 2009, 04:13:17 AM »

Quote from: hubel458 on May 21, 2009, 06:45:49 PM

loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and 750 gr bullets at 2250 ... Over 8000 ft lbs ...The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs

And that's just the RECOIL energy!

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #214 on:** May 22, 2009, 06:36:50 AM »

OK NEW GUY HERE SO DON'T HURT ME

Now this is a conversion that can be done to the SB2 shotgun? Is this available for purchase as well? This would be perfect gun to go with my 50 bmg....if so how much?
thanks for not hurting me?
a4

Cecil · « **Reply #215 on:** May 22, 2009, 07:30:48 AM »

AtlLaw so I guess the muzzle energy would be 100,000 lbs

AtlLaw · « **Reply #216 on:** May 22, 2009, 06:04:18 PM »

Ya think!?

hubel458 · « **Reply #217 on:** May 26, 2009, 05:44:12 AM »

You or your smith have to do. I only o my own stuff.
I have 585 reamers for your use.Some cases.

Here is picture of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but
it is machined for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done now, since
the picture was taken..Ed

gstewart44 · « **Reply #218 on:** May 26, 2009, 08:03:38 AM »

Hey Ed - have you ever thought of using a Martinihenry style action but made out of modern alloys?

hubel458 · « **Reply #219 on:** May 26, 2009, 06:55:30 PM »

I've got a Martini-Greener 12ga here but it won't take our 12ga llong case.
Take a 3" cases ok. I love to have an oversize modern steel one
for all these big cases we do..It has the best style of any of the older
guns there ever was. But it takes huge bucks and EDM, CNC,
etc types of machines, and machine experts to do them.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #220 on:** June 01, 2009, 09:18:01 PM »

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #221 on:** June 06, 2009, 03:32:50 PM »

Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED

dukkillr · « **Reply #222 on:** June 06, 2009, 04:15:13 PM »

This is one of the neatest threads on GB. Thanks for keeping us updated on your work, especially with the pictures.

hubel458 · « **Reply #223 on:** June 11, 2009, 07:28:39 PM »

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed

hunman55 · « **Reply #224 on:** June 14, 2009, 06:22:57 AM »

MAN!!!!!!!!
from an awed Hunman55

hubel458 · « **Reply #225 on:** June 16, 2009, 05:33:14 PM »

Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #226 on:** June 24, 2009, 05:34:02 PM »

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #227 on:** June 27, 2009, 05:06:26 PM »

Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weapons forum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. He wants to make it
into a regular falling block stock setup.Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
I think firing setup can be compacted an streamlined,
which would make it easier to mount a stock,
It might be the only one like it.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #228 on:** July 05, 2009, 06:01:56 AM »

In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #229 on:** July 18, 2009, 04:43:15 PM »

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Here is picture
PH from the bottom showing its size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #230 on:** July 29, 2009, 08:34:52 PM »

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any...Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #231 on:** August 04, 2009, 06:18:41 PM »

Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone was brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #232 on:** August 13, 2009, 05:31:15 PM »

I got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really get the
speed in 3.5" cases. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

hubel458 · « **Reply #233 on:** August 18, 2009, 07:24:12 PM »

Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action.
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #234 on:** August 25, 2009, 06:15:00 PM »

e get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #235 on:** September 01, 2009, 07:17:50 PM »

Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case basecups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #236 on:** September 05, 2009, 04:45:56 PM »

Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #237 on:** September 13, 2009, 06:39:10 PM »

Comparing brass cases.I tell everybody who are stepping
up in power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to regular brass cases.
They also make shorter 3" brass cases also.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed

hubel458 · « **Reply #238 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:47:07 PM »

Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case.
325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed

Victor3 · « **Reply #239 on:** September 20, 2009, 08:56:15 PM »

Hubel458,

Please don't take this as criticism; Most everything I've seen of your work in this thread appears to be based on sound engineering. I've only got your safety in mind here...

Be careful with the GEHA. They shouldn't be compared to new-made receivers manufactured with modern steels. K98 receivers were not originally designed to see pressure behind the front locking lugs. As far as the "safety" lug at the rear goes, there are engineering/safety concerns that lead most gun desiners to abandon rear-mounted locking lugs a century ago.

On top of that, the GEHA has material removed from the rails (which again, were never designed to be subjected to rearward thrust). Being below C/L of the bore, they're apt to deform downward. Might be a good idea to keep a close eye on that between shots.

Also, keep in mind that it's difficult to determine how much use/abuse a particular GEHA receiver had prior to its conversion (or after, for that matter). Condition was probably only visually inspected by the smiths doing the work. Might be a good idea to have your receiver Magnafluxed to reveal any hidden cracks.

And of course, don't lose the bolt head if it ejects with the shell; the gun can fire without it.

Stay safe,

Victor