Author Topic: Pistol Powders in 45-70? (Read 1851 times)

Sweaty Bullitts · « **on:** January 04, 2006, 06:57:35 PM »

Hello the wire!

When I bought Laser-Cast 405 gr bullets for my 45-70 loads, they put this link on the receipt:
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I was intending to use 60 gr of 777, but if I can use 10-12 gr of TiteGroup, I could shoot for the rest of my life on the powder I already have on the shelf!

I know this seems contrary to popular opinion, but the guy sounds like he knows whereof he speaks. His credentials certainly seem solid.

So, what do you all think? I am shooting an H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic, and this guy's research was looking specifically at the Marlin MicroGroove barrels, but is there any reason that these loads wouldn't also work in regular groove barrels?

Thanks for your thoughts,

Sweaty

Lone Star · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2006, 04:17:17 AM »

Absolutely no reason not to use the loads - with care of course. I've used Unique in my .45-70s for many many years, and BlueDot for quite awhile too. I now prefer BlueDot since it uses slightly larger charges and bulks up better in the case. Accuracy has been very good, recoil is low, report is not too loud either - all plusses for many uses.

Use caution if you try to increase the load data - pistol powder loads are not automatically low-pressure, and adding one or two extra grains of powder could put you into dangerous pressures. You do have a good margin of error with the Handi - chambered for the .500 S&W the action is very strong. Still, if you want higher power don't use pistol powders!

Ed Hill · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2006, 05:26:36 PM »

As near as I can tell, my Buff has a micro-groove barrel. The Lazer cast 405's and Unique have been one of the most accurate loads to shoot, and very easy on the shoulder. Because of the small load and large case, I use a couple of extra steps to make sure I don't double charge any cases, and if in doubt, dump it and start over!

Ed

Paul5388 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2006, 06:11:55 PM »

GMDR makes it very easy to figure out what you want to do. They have good velocity numbers and the "GS" column (Group Size) should tell you real quick what isn't worth loading.

I'm using 12.0 gr of Green Dot with a 405 gr Brass Plus cast bullet for close to 1" groups at 100 yards.

knight0334 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2006, 06:45:02 PM »

I never thought to try a pistol powder with my 45-70's... I've got enuff BlueDot to blow my house to the four corners of Jefferson County.

Someone got a graduated chart of powder loads vs. bullet weight to velocity for BlueDot in a 45-70 with both 22" and 32" barrels?

Lone Star · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2006, 03:04:29 AM »

Paul5388 does....

Paul5388 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2006, 04:11:41 AM »

Actually I use the charts provided by http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm that Sweaty Bullitts posted in the first post of this thread. It just saves a lot of time for my 22" Handi's diet. As stated, GMDR used a 22" 1895 Marlin, which is very close to my barrel, so the results are very similar.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2006, 06:35:19 AM »

Welcome to the forum Sweaty!

Thanks for the link!

knight0334 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2006, 07:29:04 AM »

Thank you for the linkage!!

Sweaty Bullitts · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2006, 10:48:42 AM »

Hey all,

Contrary to what I thought was popular opinion, seems most everyone who knows thinks it's OK. That's great! I feel much more confident now, knowing it's safe to try these loads out.

If'n it helps my pards out too, so much the better!

Sweaty

RugerNo3 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2006, 03:20:19 PM »

If you run a search for C.E. "Ed" Harris, you will find he is the guru for a lot of good shooting info. Ed's Red is a good homemade formula for bore cleaning and his reduced loads for Red Dot powder in Rifle cases 30-30 and larger capacity is excellent. Green Dot and Blue Dot can also be used with lower velocities for each. The recipe for the Dot loads is any bullet and 13grains of Red Dot, Green or Blue. The 45-70 with 405 grains is 12grains of powder in a Trap Door action. He was in the NRA upper echelon and authored many articles. There used to be articles of his on frugal squirrel dot com. It is good reading and use great care in all reloading practices. Rocky Raab uses 13gr of Blue Dot for the 223 Rem with 50gr bullets only. Accurate Reloading has a lot of info on the Blue Dot data. You can shoot for cheap with these powders and have money left over. That 223 load is not to be adjusted as it generates into the 50,000psi range and runs the 50gr to 2900 to 3000fps velocity range. That's 300+ rounds on a pound of powder. Maybe a good days shooting on a hot prairie dog town.

U.P. Bulldog · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2006, 06:27:12 PM »

After reading "40 years with the 45-70" by Paul A. Matthews.
I started using 300 gr. Hard cast bullits over 13 grains of Unique with a large pistol primer.
I also use the same 300 gr hardcast (Made by Northwoods Custom cartidges) over 14.5 grains of Titegroup. Both of these loads work great
in my Handi :-)

U.P. Bulldog

Center Shot · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2006, 09:19:39 AM »

I just bough a BC and the first loads I tried were 350 grain cast over some 2015. And I got poor results, about a 12' vertical string @ 50 yds. So today I tried them with 15 grs. of Unique and a Dacron filler. Got a 2" group @ 75 yards. This loading shows some promise, so I plan on adjusting the powder weight and see if I can get them to tighten up. One thing I noticed about Unique is that it is a lot cleaner burning than Red Dot. I have had good luck with these types of loads in my 30-30 and 38-55 using red dot and also Power Pistol.

harvester · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2006, 01:24:30 AM »

not to spoil the party, but i've also read about guys destroying their .223's using blue dot.

don't get me wrong, i've got pounds of blue dot that i'd love to use in rifle loads. just never tried it. maybe i should call sierra and ask them their thoughts - i primarily shoot sierra's anyway.

head over to www.coyotegods.com and search on blue dot. its been discussed a few times. i'd be careful.

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2006, 03:24:39 AM »

Quote

not to spoil the party, but i've also read about guys destroying their .223's using blue dot.

Careless reloaders can - and do - damage firearms all the time. The simple fact is that use of pistol powders in rifles requires additional care. Not because they are inherently dangerous, but because their low loading density makes double charges possible. Loads recommended for the .223 for example are already high pressure loads. It doesn't take much extra powder to increase pressures substantially, yet some guys treat BlueDot like any slow rifle powder. Note that the administrator for the site you referenced believes those BlueDot blowups were due to double charges...

Coyote Gods

In the .45-70 pistol powders like BlueDot have many advantages, but they are still fast burning propellants and pressures build more quickly than with rifle powders. This is not the powder for high velocity loads, and the reloader should regard BlueDot (and Unique, etc.) as a low velocity, high pressure propellant. It is also possible to put a double charge into the large .45-70 case. Keep these facts in mind and the practice is perfectly safe.

harvester · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2006, 09:49:45 AM »

lone star -

good points. i think i am going to contact sierra to get their recommendations.

(by the way, how did you like john henry and his site? he certainly is, well, unique. anyone who frequents that board very often certainly better have thick skin. its not for the faint of heart or sensitive...;-)

Lone Star · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2006, 10:04:46 AM »

Quote

(by the way, how did you like john henry and his site? he certainly is, well, unique. anyone who frequents that board very often certainly better have thick skin. its not for the faint of heart or sensitive...;-)

Hey, ya gotta expect impatience with mere mortals when you refer to yourself as a GOD..... :roll:

When you contact Sierra, don't expect them to endorse loads they have not tested. Kinda like the Ruger Owner's Manuals, all of which which infer the dangers of using any handloaded ammunition! Also note that the current group of tech experts are not all Sierra employees, but rather a panel of so-called experts. I e-mailed one last year with a question, and he gave me an obviously incorrect answer. When I challenged him, he appologized. Heck, no one is perfect....

harvester · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2006, 01:39:59 AM »

lone star - yep, as you mentioned, sierra, for many reasons which they chose not to elaborate on, recommends against it.

do you or anyone else have references to real test data performed by someone other than home reloaders? not knocking anyone's personal experiences, its just that i'm reluctant to experiment on my own.

Lone Star · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2006, 03:44:24 AM »

Lyman listed .45-70 loads with Unique in its manuals up to at least #46 or #47, and Alliant currently recommends Unique for 'Cowboy Action' loads in the .45-70, but I'm not aware of any pressure-tested data with the slower BlueDot. The site below has an in-depth study on the thread title, perhaps you've seen it:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

.