Author Topic: Are You a Republican?  (Read 2317 times)

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Offline Dano Bofano

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« on: January 06, 2006, 05:43:19 AM »
Check out www.theamericanview.com. Tell me what you think. :?

                            :-) Thanks :-)
Proud to be a true American.

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 05:52:31 AM »
Ah yes, the Constitution Party.

Religion should be a conviction, not a platform.

A little too much B-thumping to be taken seriously, IMO.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 07:00:00 AM »
I almost reflexively disagree with FWiedner but this time I think he's right.  My question on this subject is always the same:  Why does my (or your) religion have any bearing on others?  

In this country we have freedom of (or FROM) religion so stick with me here.  Lets say that my religious beliefs lead me to think that abortion is wrong.  That life begins at conception.  But here's the hitch, not everyone agrees.  Infact it's fairly evenly divided.  See if I pressed my beliefs into law I'd be outlawing the opinion of others that life begins at viability or birth or whatever.  I'd be legislating my beliefs rather than respecting each American to reach their own conclusion for themselves.  This strikes me even more contradictory from Republicans who stand for small government and little interference.  

I'm not trying to start an actual abortion debate, but rather a freedom of choice in beliefs debate.  This is what scares me about the Religious Right.  I like their morals, I fear their goal of imposing them on others.

Offline Dano Bofano

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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 07:21:20 AM »
Dear dukkillr,
 Have you ever heard of logic? :idea:  Did you know that there is a law of non contradiction? :idea3:  What do they teach at your school? :roll:
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 07:43:47 AM »
Quote from: dukkillr
I almost reflexively disagree with FWiedner but this time I think he's right.  My question on this subject is always the same:  Why does my (or your) religion have any bearing on others?  

In this country we have freedom of (or FROM) religion so stick with me here.  Lets say that my religious beliefs lead me to think that abortion is wrong.  That life begins at conception.  But here's the hitch, not everyone agrees.  Infact it's fairly evenly divided.  See if I pressed my beliefs into law I'd be outlawing the opinion of others that life begins at viability or birth or whatever. I'd be legislating my beliefs rather than respecting each American to reach their own conclusion for themselves.  This strikes me even more contradictory from Republicans who stand for small government and little interference.  

I'm not trying to start an actual abortion debate, but rather a freedom of choice in beliefs debate.  This is what scares me about the Religious Right.  I like their morals, I fear their goal of imposing them on others.
dukkillr, Good point!!! :-)
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 10:16:21 AM »
Quote
Have you ever heard of logic?  Did you know that there is a law of non contradiction?  What do they teach at your school?


Please expand on this question.  I don't know what you're asking.  I have heard of logic.  Could you quote the section number for the "law of non contradiction"?  They taught lots of things, from raquetball to advanced inorganic chemistry (I got an A in both classes).  I don't understand what you're getting at.

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 11:30:52 AM »
Like Dukkilr I don't have a clue what you're talking about. But I confess I'm not sure I like the approach taken in the post. I sure hope this don't turn out to be a personal attack on him cuz I just do NOT put up with that even for one moment on this site.


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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2006, 11:40:27 AM »
The law of non-contradiction, a statement cannot be both true and false at the same time, while relatively uncontroversial gives rise to another that is, the law of the excluded middle, where something is either true or false.

Bertrand Russell, presented the most famous example, “The King of France is bald”, this must be either true or false, but is it?

Being there presently is no King of France, it must be false.  However if one concludes the statement is false, it would imply that the present King of France is not bald, however this is not correct either, as there is no King of France.  

Russell’s solution was presented in his paper, “On Denoting”, which dealt with definite descriptions, under this theory there is a hidden conjunctive in the sentence, thus the original statement “The King of France is bald”, is really saying, the PRESENT King of France is bald.  Thus, being there is no King of France, we can conclude the statement false without the implication of the original statement.

This seems more apropos to the views of those at the extremes of the political spectrum.

In the controversy surrounding abortion, I can accept that life begins at conception, as it is logical, something is living or it is not, the law of non-contradiction.

However the equating of abortion to murder by some requires that the living and dividing cells that result from conception, have the status of personage.  This gives rise to the excluded middle controversy.  If one accepts the statement abortion is murder, as true, this implies that the result of any conception is a person.  If one holds this view than there arises multiple controversies as to what constitutes abortion, or murder.

Murder is not only a crime against another, but in most cultures it is a crime against the society.  In western society we have not only scriptural prohibitions against murder, and proscribed punishments, for those guilty of its’ commission, but also secular ones as well.

The pill works by regulating the menstrual cycle, conception takes place, the cells implant themselves on the uterine wall and development proceeds normally, than shortly after the 28th pill is taken the uterine walls begin sloughing off and the woman’s period begins and the developing fetus is expelled and dies.  This occurred because of a deliberate, and premeditated act, and resulted in the death of a living product of conception, was it murder?

A pregnant woman intentionally does not seek prenatal care, and the fetus is still born, is she a murderer to some degree?

A woman is unable to obtain proper health care or diet, or living conditions because of her inability to pay, and the fetus dies, is she a murder, is the society a murderer because it chose not provide health care, or food, or proper housing?

If one holds that the termination of a product of conception, a fetus, is the death of a person, than not only must they be willing to accept the responsibility its’ well-being, but they also must be willing to accept societies intrusion into their lives concerning products of conception in which they are intimately and genetically involved in, so as to protect this unborn person.

That is why I find either extreme in the abortion debate to be distasteful.  Those equating abortion with murder often are the same ones opposed to, conceptive education, providing prenatal care to the indigent, and government intrusion.  It seems more a matter of right to birth, not a right to life.  Those in support abortion at any stage of pregnancy seem to have abdicated any responsibility and the role of cultural mores.

A more useful framing of the debate would be, what constitutes personage, and not, an absolute of life or death, as neither extreme of the pro or con side, seems willing to be bound by the consequences of their positions.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2006, 12:38:37 PM »
Well thanks for the pseudo-intellectual info.  Fortunately this debate is not one held in a freshman philosophy class.  Although I do look back fondly on those kids in the back row who refused to shave so they could stroke their chin while understanding little and saying a great deal.  

Actually I would suspect you found an answer not intended by the original comment, but at least I learned something today.

I agree with your final few paragraphs but I specifically stated that I wasn't trying to start a debate on abortion, but on freedom of decision.

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2006, 12:54:39 PM »
Ah yes Russell,it is either raining outside or it is not raining out side,if it is raining outside therefore it is not raining or if it is not raining out side therefore it is raining--razzle dazzle BS.The very essence of innocences is a humand fetus and the very essence of Evil is the convicted murderer so we kill the fetus and let the convicted killer off the Death penalty right FE?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2006, 02:36:10 PM »
No I like Aristotle, and his law of non-contradiction.  However I find most disagreements find a basis in the excluded middle.  For example, “It is raining outside”.  Because the statement is not definitive by perspective or location, it can be both true and false, unless what is really meant is, it is raining outside HERE, or it is raining outside SOMEWHERE.

No wish to have an abortion debate either, I just find that ideologies, when presented as embodiment of an absolute, always brings to mind the tautologies and truth tables, that a logic professor I had, spent so much time constructing and putting in his book, which we were required to purchase.  

Most situations in life, the either or, is often contextual, such as abortion, capital punishment, or war.  All three involve killing, dependent upon perspective, they can simultaneously be right, wrong, good, and evil.

Not trying to be an intellectual, but declarations of a position as an affirmative absolute, should require that those espousing them be consistent.  To do this requires specificity terms and consensus as to the meaning of the terms, and as it seldom, if ever happens in reality, what is self evident to one may be delusional to another, and thus we will muddle through with the results of our unintended hypocrisy, except for politicians who never mean what they say.  

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

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Offline Dano Bofano

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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2006, 07:29:08 AM »
Dear dukkillr,
 :cry: Sorry for not explaining myself earlier. OK, let's go back to your first post. In it you were expressing your opinion, which could be summarized as, "My opinion should not be forced upon you" :drink4: . You were saying that that opinion("My opinion shgould not be forced upon you.") should be forced on everyone.  :idea: DUH! :idea:   NOW do you see why I made my comment?!! It is a contradiction in itself!!! If you got an A in your logic class, it shows how bad our education system is!!! :roll:

  Dano Bofano
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Offline ironglow

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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2006, 08:26:29 AM »
Complete freedom is a myth...even in the most free of societies..
   
   When our courts have deemed that we should not discriminate upon the basis of race, creed, gender or etc., etc. Haven't they imposed someone's belief over the beliefs of some others.
   
  When the courts decide against armed robbers..the robber may feel he was "justified" in his action...isn't that imposing one group's belief over another ?

   When a premeditated murderer is put away b ecause of a revenge killing (some folks approve of revenge killing)...isn't that favoring one groups beliefs over another ?
 
 It has nothing to do with the source of ones belief...could have been from Christianity, the Ouija board or those who worship nature...we all have beliefs and convictions.....and some are going to have their beliefs trampled upon...in favor of others...

   A few here I would venture are such Christophobes that they think, "if it's derived from Christianity..it's wrong..but if it comes from philosophy ..it's right !"
 
   That is a strange notion of superiority to assume !
 
   A  more honest approach is to say I derive my beliefs from a) Plato b) Christianity c) Maslow d) Judaism e) Ouija board f) Thomas Paine or g) I dreamed it up   etc. etc.

     Any organized society is framed in agreed rules...some folks wants/beliefs will be honored...some won't
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2006, 08:54:06 AM »
There can be absolute truth without any agrrement from anyone.
Agreement has nothing to do with either truth or absolutes.
Agreement may have something to do with culture.
Blessings
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Offline Dano Bofano

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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2006, 01:46:16 PM »
Dear ironglow,
 Please define "freedom" as you used it in your latest post. Also, are you trying to say that there is no objective truth, and that everything is subjective?
                        :gun4: Dano Bofano
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2006, 09:49:42 AM »
Ironglow you fell into the classic pitfall of your argument.  You're right, logically speaking, but you're wrong, practically speaking.  

There is a template of rules this country was founded on, and that have been agreed on almost universally, since it's beginning.  That's what makes your "Well what about a thief who believes he was justified" logic fail.  As a country we have agreed in unison that stealing, murder, etc... are wrong and will not be tolerated.

But that doesn't translate to other issues.  There is no clear consensus on issues abortion or euthanasia, among others.  That's why you're wrong.  

Lets take abortion as an example.  Presume that I believe abortion is murder and that I am a pregnant woman.  Under current law there is absolutely no reason I would ever have to have or support an abortion.  My belief is safe in my own personal freedom and free from government induced morals.

Now flip it.  Presume I believe that life begins at viability (lets say 20 weeks).  Also assume that I want to have an abortion but it's been outlawed.  My freedom to make this decision for myself based on my own morals (but operating within the societal norm) has been eliminated by others who do not share my belief.

Animal rights people share the same outlook here.  Rather than simply being content to not hurt or kill animals for themselves they seek to impose their belief on others and eliminate the freedom to come to an individual decision (again, within societal norms).

If those same animal rights activists (or anti-choice activists) are right they should be capable of persuading the public be means of free speech.  A hypothetical listener would be free to hear what was being offered and come to their own conclusion.  The key being that the choice was theirs to make, and not the product of someone’s legislatively enacted moral crusade.

Offline Dano Bofano

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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2006, 03:47:42 AM »
Dear dukkillr,
 You said in your last post that this country was founded on a templateof rules. What was that founded on? Was it founded on consensus of the people? NO WAY! Their philosophy was as follows; 1. There is a creater God. 2.He gave us certain rights. 3. The purpose of law and government is to protect and defend those God-given rights. Please try to refute that with anything you can find. Thanks
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2006, 07:09:57 AM »
Sure, that template is called the Constitution which provides, among other things, freedom of/from religion.  It's that simple.

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2006, 07:46:45 AM »
Quote
Not trying to be an intellectual, but declarations of a position as an affirmative absolute, should require that those espousing them be consistent. To do this requires specificity terms and consensus as to the meaning of the terms, and as it seldom, if ever happens in reality, what is self evident to one may be delusional to another, and thus we will muddle through with the results of our unintended hypocrisy, except for politicians who never mean what they say.


Yup...be specific on topics you speak on..and be consistant ..don't muddle your meaning purposely for effect as most politicians do...The politicians do mean what they say..when...you can force them to be specific...most of the time you can't get them out of the double-speak mode to do this..this gives them plausible deniability...and can be found in Government Speaking #101... :wink:

Mac
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Offline Dano Bofano

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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2006, 09:00:27 AM »
Dear dukkillr,
 Sorry for not explaining my question better. What I'm asking is this:What is that template (which you correctly identified as the Constitution) founded on? Changing consensus's between men, or the unchanging moral law established by God?
 It seemed that in your last post that you were suggesting that it was founded on consesus. Which, I might add, is  :!: FALSE! :!:
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Offline Nightrain52

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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2006, 01:47:07 PM »
OOOOHHHHHH-My head hurts. :roll:  :music:  :toast:
FREEDOM IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR-ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR IT--------IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY TURKEYS

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2006, 05:20:21 PM »
No, clearly not founded on a consensus.  But the country runs on the constitution (and the ammendments).  They very clearly establish that no religion is to be adopted by the government or imposed on the people.  That's all I'm advocating...

Am I to understand that you prefer taking the right to make personal decisions away from people with whom you disagree?  Or is this just for the sake of argument?

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2006, 12:41:28 AM »
DUHKILLR
The personal rights have been decided, previously.
This nation can change those thinkings by means of an ammendment.
I think the majority would like to keep "personal" decisions as they have been historically.
I can make and impliment any personal decision I want--I just may have need of giving up the opportunity to make further choices for a period of time, or forever because of these decisons.
This has been done countless times by many individuals and will continue to be done.
We may even choose to abolish the constitution, which is what I see some wish to do.
However; Gods laws are absolutes.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2006, 05:51:46 AM »
right, and that works great for you and me, but what if we didn't believe in god?  or perhaps more importantly, the following of gods rules should be an individual decision.

Offline Dano Bofano

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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2006, 06:28:04 AM »
Dear dukkillr,
 If God objectivly exists, it does not matter if you choose to believe it or not. He still exsists. And the moral law which He has established.
 And reguarding your earlier post, please quote the constitution where it says that no religion is to be adopted or imposed by the government :?: .
                       Thanks.
Proud to be a true American.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2006, 07:26:40 AM »
Check the first amendment and if that doesn't explain it find a Con Law book.

Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2006, 04:56:01 PM »
dukkillr
I think everyone understands the 1st Amendment if they halfway try. The
Government shall not establish a religion, or demand a religion of the
State, but we have the right to worship or in your case perhaps, not worship as we choose. The white settlers came here to practice religious
freedom, but again a person can worship or not worship.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Greysky

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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2006, 10:17:10 AM »
I'm not sure if anyone is interested in getting back on topic now, but I consider myself to be socially conservative, and fiscally moderate. I have been voting mainly for Republican candidates. But I have also been voting for a few socially conservative Democrats as well.

Frankly, from my personal perspective, I don't like what I've been seeing and hearing from either side of the political spectrum lately. So I will have a difficult time deciding who to vote for on the federal and state levels the next time. Locally, the Democrats have virtually undisputed control of the liberal college town I reside in. It's one of those back slapping, good ole boy communities with a puppet administration that takes orders from the board of university directors, along with a handful of wealthy elitists. :roll:  
If at first you don't succeed, by all means try again. But if this doesn't work, give up, because there is no sense in making a darn fool of yourself.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2006, 10:46:07 AM »
I'm a registered Republican and have historically voted republican on the 2nd amendment issue.  However, I consider myself a moderate.  My individual opinions sway from conservative to liberal depending on the topic at hand.  I'm not hardline one way or the other.

Ian
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Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2006, 04:59:58 PM »
I am a Libertarian. I disagree with them on some minor things but in general they have it right. You have the right to do as you please, as do i....until one of us affects the other's rights. then there is a problem.

otherwise, you dont get treated like a criminal (gun laws) unless you become one.

also, any depraved things you do, as long as they dont affect me, are none of my business and as long as you respect my rules when you're under my roof, we get along famously.

i dont condone certain things, you understand. i have my own opinions. but it's also not my place to make laws to uphold my personal beliefs about homosexuality or your smoking preference, or how many girlfriends you have, or what channels you wanna watch.

that make sense?

its a little hard to wrap your mind around at first but true freedom is where it's at. i bet if it's in your own best interests to make good choices and the law and society dont do it FOR you, you'd do it on your own. the best example is one someone gave me about smoking pot. now i dont agree with smoking pot as it is illegal. however, if it was legal, would everyone rush out and do it? no. why? because normal, law abiding citizens dont do dumb stuff like that. so do we need 400,000 new laws to tell us what we shouldnt do? nope.

i dunno...i have the same opinions as the rest of you on most of this stuff. i dont go see brokeback mountain because i dont want to see two cowboys doing god knows what to one another. and i wouldnt subject my kids to that. let the market choose....vote with your dollars. however, i could care less if you wanna go see it. none of my dang business.

now if someone is watching my kids and make em watch that movie, then you've affected me and you've stepped over a line.

just my humble opinion. y'all line up to yell at me if you wish.



 :D

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.