Author Topic: range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take my own advice)  (Read 721 times)

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Offline mitchell

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take my own advice)
« on: January 06, 2006, 11:22:59 AM »
i had recently told a guy that he should try a few more "tricks" to his handi that was already shooting good. well i went out shooting with my 223 fluted today and shot two groups that really said something to me. the first had the first three just about in the same whole with the 4th and 5th shots right about it (vertical stringing) still only about a 1/2 inch group. the next group was VERTICAL STRINGING no question, the group left and right is perfect but up and down its about a half inch.  but you all know me i can't just stop there i've only been loading for it for 3 days.


 i was shooting 27.8 grains of varget with a 50 grain V-max (i bought the barrel to shoot heavy stuff, oh well) all groups where shot at 100 yards.


a few questions. does anybody know if bad runout will cause vertical stringing??? or should i just ditch varget and go to RL-15?? any other help on vertical stringing.
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline mitchell

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 12:56:53 PM »
Quote from: Mac11700
I sold you for your 243 :wink:

Mac


yea i know i'm using crapy lee's right now :(
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline trotterlg

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 01:01:43 PM »
These rifles have a tendancy to vertical string, but if yours is only a half inch then it is good.  Either lockup or inconsistant ignition is the problem, these have light fireing pin strikes by nature, and powder position in the case makes a lot of difference.  Try loading the rifle, pointing the barrel straight up and tapping the butt on the table, then lower to shooting position and fire, also pull the trigger all the way back each time.  Find a powder who's speed lets you load a case at least 95% full, this also will help.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline mitchell

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 01:13:51 PM »
Quote from: trotterlg
These rifles have a tendancy to vertical string, but if yours is only a half inch then it is good.  Either lockup or inconsistant ignition is the problem, these have light fireing pin strikes by nature, and powder position in the case makes a lot of difference.  Try loading the rifle, pointing the barrel straight up and tapping the butt on the table, then lower to shooting position and fire, also pull the trigger all the way back each time.  Find a powder who's speed lets you load a case at least 95% full, this also will help.  Larry



thanks trotterlg



one thing aout varget tho 27.9 grains of varget is about 105% full case.
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline jason280

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 02:33:15 PM »
Quote
yea i know i'm using crapy lee's right now


What's wrong with Lee dies?
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Offline mitchell

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 04:22:48 PM »
Quote from: jason280
Quote
yea i know i'm using crapy lee's right now


What's wrong with Lee dies?


just a personal preference , although i have loaded some nice ammo with them i think there is a reason the bench rest guys all use redding and forster.

my problem with lee dies is runout thats all but it sure as heck can make a difference in a group.
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Norseman112

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 04:38:28 PM »
Not all dies and shooters..
Even guys that do alot of bench shooting use the Lee collet dies. Infact Lee even stats they guarantee there is no loading system that will load more accurate ammunition. They have been in business here in Harford  Wisconsin since 1958.  :eek:

Offline mitchell

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2006, 04:43:50 PM »
well yes they can make some good ammo . i use them in my 204 and its shoots great (.2's-.3's) but i think a die that hold the shell completely will always do a lot better then one that doesn't . again just personal preference .
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline Norseman112

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2006, 04:46:39 PM »
Mitchell,
you may want to consider the Lee collect die a try, Redding and Foster are great dies. I started with Lee but use RCBS and some Lee collect dies. But, again its what ever works for you.

John

Offline Norseman112

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2006, 04:49:18 PM »
Hey you wanna sell that 204 barrel?   :D   :-D

John

Offline mitchell

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2006, 04:51:26 PM »
Quote from: Norseman112
Hey you wanna sell that 204 barrel?   :D   :-D

John


you know i think i do . first $1000 get it :D
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Offline Norseman112

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2006, 05:01:16 PM »
Well if it were mine I would put a high price tag on it to..its worth it!!. I thought I was going to get a .17 cal handi for CHRISTmas (didnt happen), but I been reading and hearing alot about the 204. So I have been leaning towards it. I am going to send my .243 frame in and probly have a .204 fitted.    

John

Offline nomosendero

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2006, 04:38:35 PM »
I seem to have the best results with Redding Dies.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Fred M

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2006, 06:32:19 PM »
Mitchell.
Runout wont give you vertical stringing. Vertical stringing is caused by variation in velocity, variation in neck tension, veriation flash holes, variation in primer seating, variation in primer pocket depth, and in a Handi latch movement and poor and uneven flash charges caused by by burrs on the inside of the flash holes.

Variation in powder charges as little as 0.2gr in the 223, 204, 222 will do it. A powder with 100% filling ratio should be considerd. The case volumn in these wee cases vary as much a 3.0gr Ho2 from one maker to another. The 204 load you were using was actually 58K
The same load in a case with 3 gr less volumn was well over 72k

Except for the latch movement all the above will come about by pressure variation. In a BR rifle halve a bullet diameter in vertical is a bad news.

You talk about runout what do you use to measure it, and how do you correct it. Where on the cartridge is the runout, and or where in the chamber does it occure. Where in relation to the chamber do you seat the bullet.

Indexing loaded shells is of some help in a crooket chamber or in crooket dies. Most dies including Lee dies will produce concentric ammo, providing the neck walls are perfectly reamed to a consistant wall thickness and later on checked for brass flow into the neck walls.
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Offline jim62

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2006, 06:58:25 PM »
Fred,

There are two other things that will cause vertical srtinging-

1) a scope moving gradually in the rings under recoil..

2) a pressure point in the barrel channel that causes the barrel to move POI as it heats up.Individual barrels react differently to this,but some will certainly string their shots with a pressure point on the underside of the barrel..

I have seen both of these things string groups vertically.

Offline trotterlg

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2006, 07:08:37 PM »
But in a Handi it is mostly caused by inconsistant lockup and a weak inconsistant fireing pin strike.  Both of these make up the vertical stringing problems that so many Handi and Rossi users see.  Larry
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Offline Fred M

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range report 2 on 223 fluted (should i take
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2006, 07:55:35 PM »
Jim62.
You are right about temperature rise in a barrel but that should not be of any concern in a Hunting rifle where intelligent sighting in and load testing is done with three shot groups only. and barrel is alowed to cool until the next three shots are fired.

I shoot my Handi's and Ruger#1 fully bedded with pressure on the forearm tip, the hinge piece and the barrel stud and foam in between the three points.

This system has not lost its accuray nor point of impact.

Factory #1 Rugers are set up with pressure on the forarm tip. Steel has an expansion coeff of 0.00067
 per foot at a 100deg F change. So a reasonable warm barrel will not be influenced much. But a non stress relieved barrel will walk around when fired until you can't touch it.

A loose scope and mounts of course can give you the willies for sure.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.