Author Topic: Does anybody on this forum still love america?  (Read 5746 times)

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Offline Daks

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« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2006, 08:11:15 AM »
Though the original subject of the case was as you say, the decision went so far as to declare unilateral secession by Texas to be illegal.

I refer you to http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/publications/journals/shq/online/v019/n1/article_3.html which provides an analysis of the opinion of the court in that matter. The union, according to the Court, is indissoluble by an action of a state. In other words, Texas had no legal right to secede.

Until that decision is overturned, it is the definitive and authoritative word on the legality of secession in general. In your opinion, they didn't have the power to do what they did but that opinion does not have the force of law behind it as does this decision. In the opinion of the Supreme Court, secession was illegal.

That seems pretty authoritative to me.

I'd also remind you that as the subject of ad hominem attacks by others, you ought to be sensitive to making an ad hominem attack yourself. Impugning the motivations of judges does not substitute for an argument based on the issue at hand. Chase could be the Devil incarnate and it would not matter in the slightest in regards to the force or content of the decision in Texas vs. White. His character or lack thereof has nothing to do with the question of the legality of secession. It might give some insight into WHY he made the decision but that is a question separate from the one at hand - the legality of secession itself.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2006, 01:42:19 PM »
Quote from: Daks
Though the original subject of the case was as you say, the decision went so far as to declare unilateral secession by Texas to be illegal.

I refer you to http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/publications/journals/shq/online/v019/n1/article_3.html which provides an analysis of the opinion of the court in that matter. The union, according to the Court, is indissoluble by an action of a state. In other words, Texas had no legal right to secede.

Until that decision is overturned, it is the definitive and authoritative word on the legality of secession in general. In your opinion, they didn't have the power to do what they did but that opinion does not have the force of law behind it as does this decision. In the opinion of the Supreme Court, secession was illegal.

That seems pretty authoritative to me.

I'd also remind you that as the subject of ad hominem attacks by others, you ought to be sensitive to making an ad hominem attack yourself. Impugning the motivations of judges does not substitute for an argument based on the issue at hand. Chase could be the Devil incarnate and it would not matter in the slightest in regards to the force or content of the decision in Texas vs. White. His character or lack thereof has nothing to do with the question of the legality of secession. It might give some insight into WHY he made the decision but that is a question separate from the one at hand - the legality of secession itself.


Again, you clearly don't have sufficient education on the subject to discuss it with any intelligence whatsoever.  You might want to go look up the powers of the courts, and their limitations; however you've clearly ignored everything I've written so far, so I see no point in saying anything further.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2006, 03:28:01 PM »
As I mentioned in a different thread, I think I understand, now.

I've presented you with an authoritative and definitive refutation of your basic premise regarding the legality of secession, coming from the highest court in our nation and one empowered by the Constitution to make such judgments.

Your response is to call me ignorant and refuse to answer.

Sounds to me like your case just went up in smoke and you have chosen to sulk.

Sorry I've wasted my time on you. You can be sure I won't make that mistake in the future.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2006, 03:59:21 PM »
Nope, sorry-- you stated a false impression of the law and history-- and ignored everything I've stated on this topic as well.

Now, I mean it-- go look up the facts, before making statements which express ignorance on the topic-- of both the law, and everything I've stated.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2006, 04:25:42 PM »
I've not ignored everything you've said. I've merely pointed out that you have no standing to decide a matter of law in a definitive and authoritative way. The Supreme Court does. You might not like its decision and you might think it to be overreaching its authority but that really doesn't have any bearing on the matter. Your opinion is just that - a personal opinion. The Court's opinions are law.

Until another case comes up that gives the Court the opportunity to overturn its decision, the prior decision has the standing of law. As a matter of law, then, secession was illegal and that status will not change until the Court overturns its own decision.

So in answer to the previous question, was secession illegal?, the answer by the Supreme Court, which is the only body empowered to make determinations about the legality of an action by a state, was that "yes, it was illegal". That opinion has the force of law and will continue until overturned by a future decision.

All you've done in response is declare that I don't know what I'm talking about, which isn't much of a refutation. Can you show that this Court decision is NOT law? And showing that it ought not to be considered law isn't good enough. You must show that it is not law. To do that, you must show some authoritative and definitive decision by a body having jurisdiction over the Supreme Court that can and has nullified this decision.

You won't be able to do that. All you can do is show how it, in your opinion, should not have been decided as it was. That's not good enough to prove that secession is not just as the Court decided it - illegal.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2006, 11:42:00 PM »
Quote from: Daks
I've not ignored everything you've said. I've merely pointed out that you have no standing to decide a matter of law in a definitive and authoritative way. The Supreme Court does.


Not in the matter of policy-issues like secession; only cases at law or equity. Over anything else, the SC has no more jurisdiction than a cow farting-- just like your statement that the SC has the power to define its OWN jurisdiction. Nope.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2006, 11:48:43 AM »
The court defined its own jurisdiction in Marbury vs. Madison. It took a power onto itself not explicitly granted by the Constitution in that case.

Many people at the time made arguments such as your own, that the Court had no right to make such a decision. However, once the decision had been made, it had the force of law until overturned. It never has been and now, the right of the Supreme Court to overturn laws made by Congress is unquestioned.

Why?

Because just like in Texas vs. White, once the Court has decided the legality of an action, that decision settles the issue definitively and authoritatively until another case is brought that overturns the original decision or an Amendment is passed.

You'd like this to be considered a policy decision but the Court never addressed the policy issues. It addressed the legality of a state leaving the Union and acted entirely within its own powers. Many people make your same argument in respect to Roe vs. Wade, that the Court overstepped its role and dabbled into policy issues. Maybe so, but until Roe vs. Wade is overturned, abortion remains legal.

That's why your argument fails. You don't seem to realize that while your opinion on the proper role of the court may be right, once the Court has spoken, its decision is law until the original decision is overturned or an Amendment passed. The Court decided the legality of leaving the Union in this decision so even by your own standards, it stayed within the bounds of its proper role. The Court stated that since secession was not a right of an individual state, Texas never ceased being a state within the Union. It is a very straightforward decision with a clear statement regarding the legality of an action taken by a particular state, which is certainly within its role as defined by the Constitution.

In other words, secession was not legal because the Court stated it was not. Until it speaks again on this issue, the question of legality has been settled.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2006, 02:36:25 PM »
Quote from: Daks
The court defined its own jurisdiction in Marbury vs. Madison. It took a power onto itself not explicitly granted by the Constitution in that case.



:)  
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

Better get to bed-- it's a school-night!

Offline Daks

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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2006, 05:22:17 AM »
Instead of laughing, perhaps you should be reading. For example, from the James Madison Center at JMU:

"The critical importance of Marbury is the assumption of several powers by the Supreme Court. One was the authority to declare acts of Congress, and by implication acts of the president, unconstitutional if they exceeded the powers granted by the Constitution. But even more important, the Court became the arbiter of the Constitution, the final authority on what the document meant. As such, the Supreme Court became in fact as well as in theory an equal partner in government, and it has played that role ever since."

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/madison_archives/era/judicial/bkgrnd.htm

I've caught you with your pants down, Brian. You obviously haven't read enough constitutional law to have any idea what you are talking about if you don't know the importance of something as basic as the case of Marbury vs. Madison. You just gave up any semblance of credibility on this forum regarding constitutional issues.

Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2006, 05:46:51 AM »
For anybody who loves this country, you should see where our current deficit spending policies, and job exporting is leading us.

When Americans No Longer Own America
www.economyincrisis.org

We will soon be sharecroppers in our own country if we don't change the way our lawmakers and bureaucrats are selling us out. I'd love to hear from anyone who thinks this site doesn't have the right take on what's happening here.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2006, 02:46:01 PM »
Quote from: Daks
Instead of laughing, perhaps you should be reading. For example, from the James Madison Center at JMU:

"The critical importance of Marbury is the assumption of several powers by the Supreme Court. One was the authority to declare acts of Congress, and by implication acts of the president, unconstitutional if they exceeded the powers granted by the Constitution. But even more important, the Court became the arbiter of the Constitution, the final authority on what the document meant. As such, the Supreme Court became in fact as well as in theory an equal partner in government, and it has played that role ever since."

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/madison_archives/era/judicial/bkgrnd.htm

I've caught you with your pants down, Brian. You obviously haven't read enough constitutional law to have any idea what you are talking about if you don't know the importance of something as basic as the case of Marbury vs. Madison. You just gave up any semblance of credibility on this forum regarding constitutional issues.


Nonsense. If you think that the Supreme Court can rule itself all-powerful, you're higher than Mars-- and as sober as Bacchus. Like most wet-behind-the-ears newbies, you've clearly leapt several miles of context, as this applies only to the courtroom-- not the supreme powers of Congress or the states.

And while I certainly don't need a neophyte lecturing me on Constitutional law, I don't have either the time or the slightest inclination to engage in debate on the subject, which is not the context of this thread.
Instead, you'll have to start a new one on the powers of the Supreme Court, in which you'll attempt to explain how the court is the last word on  every law regarding US government-- including war or national boundaries.
That should be amusing, but I'm really not interested in that-- in fact, I'm quite bored with you altogether.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2006, 11:47:57 PM »
Like I said, you obviously have zero understanding about constitutional law and that last post of yours, contradicting what authoritative sources have said is the significance of Marbury vs. Madison, proves it. All you've done is read the Constitution, which gave you half of what you need on the subject.

I've supported my position regarding Marbury vs. Madison with documentation from authoritative sites. All you've done is give us your opinion. Go find a site that says that Marbury vs. Madison WASN'T a case of the Supreme Court defining its own jurisdiction in exactly the way I've said and other authoritative sources I've provided say.

Then you'll have something to base your opinion on other than your own musings.

Until then, you are just another Internet blowhard that is easily put back into his box when someone with even a little bit of real knowledge shows up to dispute you. You've relied on taunts, derision, sarcasm, misrepresenting what I'm saying - anything to avoid talking about the subject. That's the sign of someone who can't back up what he is saying with anything else. All you've got is personal opinion that you cannot back up by finding even ONE citation in all the seven gazillion Internet pages out there that agrees with you regarding Marbury vs. Madison.

That more than anything should tell the people that come to this forum what a fraud your supposed knowledge of the Constitution is.

Done here.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2006, 08:07:20 PM »
No comment; obviously not a single person here agrees with you.

MvM obviously only applies to STATUTES, not control over the frigging MILITARY!

Offline Georgian

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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2006, 06:12:39 PM »
Well, I dont know if anybody else does, but I sure as hell do. Where in this world do people have the things we have, the freedoms, liberties, opportunities, etc? I'm not sayin that this country is perfect, far from it, but it is also far from terrible.  There are quirks that can and should be fixed, such as the Judicial system with the courts, processing of criminals, etc., but yes, I still love America.
~Speak softly and carry a big stick~T. Roosevelt

~I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.~J. Wayne

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2006, 01:13:26 PM »
Quote from: Georgian
Well, I dont know if anybody else does, but I sure as hell do. Where in this world do people have the things we have, the freedoms, liberties, opportunities, etc? I'm not sayin that this country is perfect, far from it, but it is also far from terrible.  There are quirks that can and should be fixed, such as the Judicial system with the courts, processing of criminals, etc., but yes, I still love America.



Did you read the other posts? It doesn't sound like it-- particularly with that type of talk.

How can you claim to love something, when you don't even know what it is?

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2006, 04:02:40 PM »
There is so much to be fixed.....where to begin?  Fixing this would require much more than a mear tweek here and there.......The government we have in place now is not the government most people think we have.  There is only as much liberty as the goverment allows us to have.  Clearly we need to return to the time when government feared the people, and not the people fearing the government.

 Illegal wire taps and sneek and peak searches don't disturb you?  Mr. Bush has exceeded the power granted to the executive branch of government and violated  the fourth ammendment as a result.  Other provisions of the patriot act tramp on the 5th ammendment as well.  I really hate to say this, but the democrats that are critical of Mr. Bush have a valid argument under article II section 4 of the constitution.


I suggest you read in this order:  The Articles of the Confederation.  The Declaration of Independence,  The Madison debates,  The US constitution and then The Federalist papers.    When you finish that read the Communist Manifesto and Mao's little red book.

Most people studied about these documents in school.  Most did not study the documents themselves.  Most of us studied about these documents in a school that is funded by the federal government, and of course there was no agenda so what they taught us must have been correct........right?

Sure, the checks in the mail,.......I'll call you tomorrow........  I love you......animals have rights......and last but most significant.  "Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

What do the statements in the paragraph above have in common?

[/quote]
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2006, 06:29:40 PM »
To restore... harmony,... to render us again one people acting as one nation should be the object of every man really a patriot.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas McKean, 1801
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2006, 04:07:07 AM »
yes, but Dell just announced 20,000 jobs going to india.  We are a government of special interest, and the special interest is money.  Our leaders are only concerned about how they can maximize profit and could care less about the people who are providing the labor.  Labor is a commodity to them.   The various and numerous illegal government agencies such as the EPA have made for a business environment where following the law is near impossible, and very expensive.  The result is business leaving the country and the business that stays forces out the little guy.  Walmart anounced it was opening 1500 new stores.  As there's only 50 states you do the math.  Counting the existing walmarts it looks like at least 6 or so stores in every major city, and at least one in the small towns.

Does anybody not believe Microsoft is a monopoly?

Soon, there will be a half dozen or so banks, and a half dozen or fewer retailers.  The mega corporation has eleminated the competition and rules in america.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Georgian

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« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2006, 04:35:42 PM »
Well of course victor, everything in this world is regulated by money. This whole world revolves around it and everything, in some shape or form, is driven by money. There is no way around it.
~Speak softly and carry a big stick~T. Roosevelt

~I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.~J. Wayne

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2006, 07:14:08 AM »
I guess that depends on how driven by money we become.  Money by it's self isn't bad but when the quest for it drives us to forget the priniples of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness then there is a problem.

What good is it if a man gain the world but lose his soul in the process?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Georgian

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« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2006, 03:50:20 PM »
I agree totally victor, but the world will essentially be the world, and the ppl with the money and power will rule it, unless someone takes that money and power away from them. Simple as that. Rarely do you get a person who has money and power and uses it the way it was meant to be used.
~Speak softly and carry a big stick~T. Roosevelt

~I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.~J. Wayne

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2006, 04:06:32 PM »
I tend to agree with you.  The rich always find a way to exploit the poor.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2006, 08:18:37 AM »
From today's Wall Street Journal Opinion Page:


PEGGY NOONAN

Patriots, Then and Now
With nations as with people, love them or lose them.

Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

I had a great experience the other night. I met some of the 114 living recipients of the Medal of Honor, the nation's highest military award. It was at their annual dinner, held, as it has been the past four years, at the New York Stock Exchange.

I met Nick Oresko. Nick is in his 80s, small, 5-foot-5 or so. Soft white hair, pale-pink skin, thick torso, walks with a cane. Just a nice old guy you'd pass on the street or in the airport without really seeing him. Around his neck was a sky-blue ribbon, and hanging from that ribbon the medal. He let me turn it over. It had his name, his rank, and then "1/23/45. Near Tettington, Germany."

Tettington, Germany. The Battle of the Bulge.

When I got home I looked up his citation on my beloved Internet, where you can Google heroism. U.S. Army Master Sgt. Nicholas Oresko of Company C, 302nd Infantry, 94th Infantry Division was a platoon leader in an attack against strong enemy positions:


Deadly automatic fire from the flanks pinned down his unit. Realizing that a machinegun in a nearby bunker must be eliminated, he swiftly worked ahead alone, braving bullets which struck about him, until close enough to throw a grenade into the German position. He rushed the bunker and, with pointblank rifle fire, killed all the hostile occupants who survived the grenade blast. Another machinegun opened up on him, knocking him down and seriously wounding him in the hip. Refusing to withdraw from the battle, he placed himself at the head of his platoon to continue the assault. As withering machinegun and rifle fire swept the area, he struck out alone in advance of his men to a second bunker. With a grenade, he crippled the dug-in machinegun defending this position and then wiped out the troops manning it with his rifle, completing his second self-imposed, 1-man attack. Although weak from loss of blood, he refused to be evacuated until assured the mission was successfully accomplished. Through quick thinking, indomitable courage, and unswerving devotion to the attack in the face of bitter resistance and while wounded, M /Sgt. Oresko killed 12 Germans, prevented a delay in the assault, and made it possible for Company C to obtain its objective with minimum casualties.
Nick Oresko lives in Tenafly, N.J. If courage were a bright light, Tenafly would glow.

 


I met Pat Brady of Sumner, Wash., an Army helicopter medevac pilot in Vietnam who'd repeatedly risked his life to save men he'd never met. And Sammy Davis, a big bluff blond from Flat Rock, Ill., on whom the writer Winston Groom based the Vietnam experiences of a character named Forrest Gump. Sgt. Davis saved men like Forrest, but he also took out a bunch of bad guys. And yes, he was wounded in the same way as Forrest. That scene in the movie where Lyndon Johnson puts the medal around Tom Hanks's neck: that's from the film of LBJ putting the medal on Sammy's neck, only they superimposed Mr. Hanks.
I talked to James Livingston of Mount Pleasant, S.C., a Marine, a warrior in Vietnam who led in battle in spite of bad wounds and worse odds. I told him I was wondering about something. Most of us try to be brave each day in whatever circumstances, which means most of us show ourselves our courage with time. What is it like, I asked, to find out when you're a young man, and in a way that's irrefutable, that you are brave? What does it do to your life when no one, including you, will ever question whether you have guts?

He shook his head. The medal didn't prove courage, he said. "It's not bravery, it's taking responsibility." Each of the recipients, he said, had taken responsibility for the men and the moment at a tense and demanding time. They'd cared for others. They took care of their men.

Other recipients sounded a refrain that lingered like Taps. They felt they'd been awarded their great honor in part in the name of unknown heroes of the armed forces who'd performed spectacular acts of courage but had died along with all the witnesses who would have told the story of what they did. For each of the holders of the Medal of Honor there had been witnesses, survivors who could testify. For some great heroes of engagements large and small, maybe the greatest heroes, no one lived to tell the tale.

And so they felt they wore their medals in part for the ones known only to God.

In a brief film on the recipients that was played at the dinner, Leo Thorsness, an Air Force veteran of Vietnam, said something that lingered. He was asked what, when he performed his great act, he was sacrificing for. He couldn't answer for a few seconds. You could tell he was searching for the right words, the right sentence. Then he said, "I get emotional about it. But we're a free country." He said it with a kind of wonder, and gratitude.

And of course, he said it all.


 


What this all got me thinking about, the next day, was . . . immigration. I know that seems a lurch, but there's a part of the debate that isn't sufficiently noted. There are a variety of things driving American anxiety about illegal immigration and we all know them--economic arguments, the danger of porous borders in the age of terrorism, with anyone able to come in.
But there's another thing. And it's not fear about "them." It's anxiety about us.

It's the broad public knowledge, or intuition, in America, that we are not assimilating our immigrants patriotically. And if you don't do that, you'll lose it all.

We used to do it. We loved our country with full-throated love, we had no ambivalence. We had pride and appreciation. We were a free country. We communicated our pride and delight in this in a million ways--in our schools, our movies, our popular songs, our newspapers. It was just there, in the air. Immigrants breathed it in. That's how the last great wave of immigrants, the European wave of 1880-1920, was turned into a great wave of Americans.

We are not assimilating our immigrants patriotically now. We are assimilating them culturally. Within a generation their children speak Valley Girl on cell phones. "So I'm like 'no," and he's all 'yeah,' and I'm like, 'In your dreams.' " Whether their parents are from Trinidad, Bosnia, Lebanon or Chile, their children, once Americans, know the same music, the same references, watch the same shows. And to a degree and in a way it will hold them together. But not forever and not in a crunch.

So far we are assimilating our immigrants economically, too. They come here and work. Good.

But we are not communicating love of country. We are not giving them the great legend of our country. We are losing that great legend.

What is the legend, the myth? That God made this a special place. That they're joining something special. That the streets are paved with more than gold--they're paved with the greatest thoughts man ever had, the greatest decisions he ever made, about how to live. We have free thought, free speech, freedom of worship. Look at the literature of the Republic: the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Federalist papers. Look at the great rich history, the courage and sacrifice, the house-raisings, the stubbornness. The Puritans, the Indians, the City on a Hill.

The genius cluster--Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, Franklin, all the rest--that came along at the exact same moment to lead us. And then Washington, a great man in the greatest way, not in unearned gifts well used (i.e., a high IQ followed by high attainment) but in character, in moral nature effortfully developed. How did that happen? How did we get so lucky? (I once asked a great historian if he had thoughts on this, and he nodded. He said he had come to believe it was "providential.")

We fought a war to free slaves. We sent millions of white men to battle and destroyed a portion of our nation to free millions of black men. What kind of nation does this? We went to Europe, fought, died and won, and then taxed ourselves to save our enemies with the Marshall Plan. What kind of nation does this? Soviet communism stalked the world and we were the ones who steeled ourselves and taxed ourselves to stop it. Again: What kind of nation does this?

Only a very great one. Maybe the greatest of all.

Do we teach our immigrants that this is what they're joining? That this is the tradition they will now continue, and uphold?

Do we, today, act as if this is such a special place? No, not always, not even often. American exceptionalism is so yesterday. We don't want to be impolite. We don't want to offend. We don't want to seem narrow. In the age of globalism, honest patriotism seems like a faux pas.

And yet what is true of people is probably true of nations: if you don't have a well-grounded respect for yourself, you won't long sustain a well-grounded respect for others.


 


Because we do not communicate to our immigrants, legal and illegal, that they have joined something special, some of them, understandably, get the impression they've joined not a great enterprise but a big box store. A big box store on the highway where you can get anything cheap. It's a good place. But it has no legends, no meaning, and it imparts no spirit.
Who is at fault? Those of us who let the myth die, or let it change, or refused to let it be told. The politically correct nitwit teaching the seventh-grade history class who decides the impressionable young minds before him need to be informed, as their first serious history lesson, that the Founders were hypocrites, the Bill of Rights nothing new and imperfect in any case, that the Indians were victims of genocide, that Lincoln was a clinically depressed homosexual who compensated for the storms within by creating storms without . . .

You can turn any history into mud. You can turn great men and women into mud too, if you want to.

And it's not just the nitwits, wherever they are, in the schools, the academy, the media, though they're all harmful enough. It's also the people who mean to be honestly and legitimately critical, to provide a new look at the old text. They're not noticing that the old text--the legend, the myth--isn't being taught anymore. Only the commentary is. But if all the commentary is doubting and critical, how will our kids know what to love and revere? How will they know how to balance criticism if they've never heard the positive side of the argument?

Those who teach, and who think for a living about American history, need to be told: Keep the text, teach the text, and only then, if you must, deconstruct the text.

When you don't love something you lose it. If we do not teach new Americans to love their country, and not for braying or nationalistic reasons but for reasons of honest and thoughtful appreciation, and gratitude, for a history that is something new in the long story of man, then we will begin to lose it. That Medal of Honor winner, Leo Thorsness, who couldn't quite find the words--he only found it hard to put everything into words because he knew the story, the legend, and knew it so well. Only then do you become "emotional about it." Only then are you truly American.

Ms. Noonan is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal and author of "John Paul the Great: Remembering a Spiritual Father," (Penguin, 2005), which you can order from the OpinionJournal bookstore. Her column appears Thursdays.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline WNY_Whitetailer

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Does anybody on this forum still love ameri
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2006, 04:12:53 PM »
Nice article Ironfoot...
Patience comes with age and You can't teach common sense

Offline urrlord

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« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2006, 03:00:58 PM »
2 small points  1- the m vs m decision was in 1868,after the war.in the late 1700's the man who authored most of  the  u.s. legal code stated"secession is a valid right of the individual states,though the mechanism is yet to be  determined"So secession was not  illegal until after the war was over!    2- federal troops at fort pickens in pensacola florida fired on secessionist volunteers before the  ft.sumter incident.i think it was more than a month before.so actually the feds fired first.however communication lines from florida were poor and the news  moved slowly.     this kind of  goes back to the start of the thread.lol    topic drift is fun ain't it!

Offline gwindrider1

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« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2006, 03:13:03 AM »
If you are not pissed off by the situation our country is in, you are not paying attention!

"I love my country, but can't help but fear my government!"

Offline Dee

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Re: Does anybody on this forum still love america?
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2006, 02:53:23 PM »
I have read a lot of ranting and much of it I agree with, and some I don't. But, let me give a brief history of myself and my family's PATRIOTISM. My Grandfather was not given American citizenship until 1907 when Oklahoma became a state. It wasn't because he was from another country but, because when Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appromattox the Cherokee who had joined the Confederacy did not surrender. It was punishment from the GOVERMENT in a time when all whites in Oklahoma Territory were considered Americans. He was a Cherokee as I am. The GOVERMENT stealing the Cherokee's land was the reason he was in Oklahoma in the first place. One of my Grandfather's sons served two tours in Viet Nam, and died while still in the military. Another Uncle of mine won three Bronze Stars and 2 Purple Hearts in WWII. I have another Uncle whom I've never met who is in a submarine on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean and has been there since 1944. I have a Cousin who had three helicopters shot out from under him in Viet Nam and is still paying the price for them phyically. I myself served 20 years as a Police Officer in the State of Texas inforcing state and Federal laws and protecting peoples rights and lives, serving as a Sgt., and a team leader in a SWAT team in the longest undeclared war in the history of the United States which still goes on with increasing danger. And, I buried numerous friends and fellow officers along the way. My Cousins Son served in Iraq for 12 months and lost several friends during his tour. My oldest Son served in the US Army airborne during Desert Storm. My 22 year old Son just got back from Afganistan after a six month long mission 3 months ago and is at this moment deployed in Bagdad, Iraq. He is a Sgt. with the 82nd Airborne.  He just turned 22 and has already been involved in TWO WARS. So the question is; Do I (WE) love our country? What a rediculous question.  However, at 56 years of age I have watched a bunch of theives take over the Goverment and run the Goverment debt to "NINE TRILLION DOLLARS". They have passed "The Patriot Act" which by their own admission, didn't even read. Have tried to "DISARM US" numerous times and still are. Have allowed local goverments to declare IMMINENT DOMAIN seizing our property and turning it over to big privately own corparations. Are taxing us to the tune of almost 47%, while giving themselves record pay raises and benefits packages. Have stolen all the money out of Social Security and spent it with nothing to show for it. REFUSE TO PROTECT OUR BORDERS but, thru HOMELAND SECURITY can wire tap our phones, search our houses, and hold us indefinantly without a warrant. They have now taken to invading Soverign Countries who have proven later not to have been responsible for attacking us and constantly threaten other countries if they don't fall in line with OUR thinking. Thru goverment funding paid for the EXECUTION of 44,000,000 babies thru abortion (our future workforce). And on and on. SO! Do I love my COUNTRY? I love what was originally a REPUBLIC!  But, as another gentleman earlier stated STATES RIGHTS was "ABOLISHED" by the great SOCIALIST Abraham Lincoln. I loved the time when Senators and Congressmen WENT HOME after finishing the country's business instead of now staying and stuffing their pockets with taxpayers cash and retiring from a $150,000.00 a year job as multi-millionaires. I loved it when you could say a prayer of thanks to Jesus Christ in a public school without getting in trouble with the GOVERMENT. I loved it when we didn't have to consider the feelings of the less than 4% of the countries population (perverts) when we teach our children morals. I loved it when the Goverment was for the people and by the people and not for the goverment and by the goverment.
I love my country BUT, I am dang shore tired of the crapp. And tired of people who whine and scold others like me because we have been paying attention and they haven't.
When Benjamin Franklin walked outside after voting in the Constitution, a man asked: What did you give us Ben? Franklin replied; A REPUBLIC if you can hold it. >:(
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Greysky

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Re: Does anybody on this forum still love america?
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2006, 04:54:51 AM »
I love my nation of birth because I don't know of a better place to call home. But even the beautiful land is being destroyed by greedy corporatists, and a burgeoning population composed mainly of materialistic egomaniacs, and a virtually uncontrolled influx of illegal aliens who are seeking their piece of the material pie.

However, I don't love the government at any level. Extremism, and corruption rule the day at every echelon. The Bill of Rights has become a double-edged sword that is being used to destroy the moral foundation that once supported America. And the Capitalist economic system has been hopelessly monopolized by smooth operating elitists who care only about material profit, not their fellow Americans. Indeed, to these vultures, my sovereign homeland is nothing more than a region to be exploited by any means, right, or wrong.

Once there existed the melting pot theory that always did work better as a lofty ideal than a practical reality. This, of course, has been replaced by the much more divisive theory called multicultural diversity, which is based on the ammoral code of policitical correctness. Now members of every nationality, race, and ethnic group can migrate to America without putting forth any effort at all to assimilate. In fact, they can even maintain duel citizenship. The average American citizen is a dwindling species.

I am sad, frustrated, resentful, disgusted, and angry with America. But, it's the only home I have. In a way, I feel like a kid with a broken toy that is beyond my ability to fix.
If at first you don't succeed, by all means try again. But if this doesn't work, give up, because there is no sense in making a darn fool of yourself.

Offline Dee

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Re: Does anybody on this forum still love america?
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2006, 12:23:02 AM »
Greysky, if you put out two posts, together we almost have an article. With one more long winded descenter I think we would. A depressing article but, an article just the same. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Greysky

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Re: Does anybody on this forum still love america?
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2006, 03:05:51 AM »
If we revealed this article of truth to the general public - if we were even allowed to do so - we'd undoubtedly be condemned as anti-social conspiracy theorists who need to become enlightened with a liberal education at some church of higher knowledge (public university).
If at first you don't succeed, by all means try again. But if this doesn't work, give up, because there is no sense in making a darn fool of yourself.