Martial Martini Henry

[fat tony]

I am considering a MH MKIV long lever, partially due to the fact
that you don't need a firearms license to have one in Canada if
chambered over .34 Caliber. I don't like the idea of having to
cobble together smokeless blackpowder equivalent loads with the old
barrel on it, and fiddling with wadding. Cleaning BP fouling is not
my idea of fun, especially with a gun you can only clean from the
muzzle. So, would it be possible( although darned expensive) to
have a modern replacement bbl chambered for .577/450 fitted,
original profile. Only problem I see is that even if the action and
bbl was strong enough, the load was meant for blackpowder only,
would the brass be strong enough, is it even practical. I
understand during WWI, at least one Jacketed spitzer type load was
developed for the MH for anti zeppelin use. I contacted one
authority on the subject, and asked the gentleman if rebarreled
with a modern barrel and Neidner firing pin, would it be okay for
smokeless, the guy said it would be about comparable to a Ruger #1.
Does this jive? Any information from the Martini Henry gods would
be greatly appreciated. Best Wishes for the New Year!

[dodd3]

tony go to the adi powder site and look at there smokles powder loads for the 450/577.adi australia make all the hodgedon powder so you can look up the comparison chart and subtitute hodgedon powder but as all ways reduce the loads by 10% and work back up checking for signs of presure,i would not use ruger #1 loads in a martini action,its a strong action but not that strong hope this is some help.

bernie  

[Double D]

First loading and shooting Black powder cartidges isn't that difficult.  It just reqires a little different set of loading and cleaning techniques.

But then every thing about the big MH requires a new learning curve.  Wait until you find out a set of relaodng dies will cost you $100 and up and 20 solid head cases will go $80. USD! CBC balloon head cases can be had for less.

Loading smokeless powder in the big Martini case also requires a little different approach.

First  understand the 577/450 is not a .458.  The Martini Henry uses Henry rifling and your groove diameter in the MK IV is going to be .468.  .468 and larger diameter bullets are needed.

Next understand it doesn't matter if you use the original barrel or  rebarrel to a modern barrel you still have the same large diameter case and to get reliable ignition with smokeless powder you are going to need a filler.

The Martini action is a very strong action. One of the stronger single shot actions.  But it isn't a Ruger 1.  When used with drawn solid head brass and Nitro for Black smokeless powder loads it is just fine.   I have tried NfB smokeless loads inthe CBC balloon head brass and it works fine.  NfB loads are in the range of 1300 fps

The Martini design doesn't need a Neidener firing pin system.  The Martini breech block and striker set up vents any gas escape quite safely. There is no danger of the striker being blown out into your face as the breech block is contained within the action.

THe MK IV striker has the larger black powder diameter pin.  With NfB loads the pressure is low enough that this is not an issue.  The ME does use a smaller diameter smokeless powder striker pin

With Nitro Express loads at 2200 fps the recoil is brutal. Some of the recoil can be controlled by restocking. But the long action design of the Martini makes it difficult to hang onto the rifle when fired. Pistol grip doesn't help that much.  You don't need NE loads in this rifle. The feeling returned in my right arm within  an hour after firing 10 rounds of NE loads.  Thanks I'll stick with black or NfB loads.

I am using  IMR 4198, RL-7, RL-15 and XMP-5744 for loads. For fillers I use Kapok.  

I like Kapok. It's cheap and easy to use. You can weigh out a specific amount or just pull off a wad and push it in the case.  You must use a filler as loose powder hangfires and misfires if not held against the primer flash hole.  You MUST fill the airspace in NFB loads for the same reason you must fill the airspace in blackpowder loads.

For lot of good links to Martini Henry stuff try my  Internet Sites for Martinis, Related Material and Subjects

[fat tony]

Hello, looks like the MH is a real adventure. 2200 fps? wow, that is a real monster. I won't ask for any details about the load, but did it have any practical accuracy? I guess a load  like that would only be used for animals that 'shoot back', so minute of angle would probably go out the window pretty quick. I was perusing the gunforums last night and read the threads about the fillers and what not, it looks like a bit of a tough nut to crack, some guy recommended using tissue paper, one other guy reamed the primer pockets out to shot gun primer size. I guess that's considered a no-no with the 215 primers. Bit of a toss up really, for cost, the Ruger is looking better and better, however, it is also appealing to get such a powerful rifle without a license and thereby thumbing my nose at the anti's. . . I have a soft spot for military and guns that require work to bring them up to scratch. I guess I'm a bit of a tinkerer by nature. Thanks guys.

[kombi1976]

I think you should also keep in mind that in order to get decent drawn cases you need to buy Bertrams made here in Australia.
At present they cost around AUD$120 for 20!!
Even converted to Canadian dollars that really hurts the back pocket.
I know of a lot of guys that converted over to 45/70.
It's up to the Marlin loads and fits easily within the action.
Just keep in mind that even if you load your 577/450 with smokeless the barrels are designed for BP....they aren't "Nitro Proofed".
Truthfully you're better buying a Ruger No.1 if you want to shoot alot of rounds from your rifle.
Bertram cases are better than turned cases or the old wrapped original military ones but they are softer than alot of the other brass for different cals by the big companies and it isn't uncommon for them to split after 1 or 2 reloads although that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.
I guess I'm saying be aware of what this could cost in the long term.
BTW, I'm unaware of any MH 577/450 that pushes the standard bullet, a 400gn cast pill, at 2200fps.
ADI's 37gn maximum load of AR2207(like H4198) pushes this bullet at 1300fps.
Furthermore, often the clue to finding the correct load for this cartridge is finding the right shaped bullet for it.
For obvious reasons this could take ages and until then you have a rifle which costs a fortune in cases and shoots "minute-of-elephant".
My advice is to contact some MH enthusiasts like those at the Martini Henry Forum.
Here's a link:
http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm1
If you decide to buy one then great, but do it with your eyes open.
As a side note, I'm unsure why there isn't an enterprising individual out with the right equipment who will specialize in 577/450 cases and a few other similar black powder cartridges, produce them on a part time basis to cut down on costs and undercut Bertrams but charging about half the price but still make a killing.

[Drifter Mike]

kombi1976;
Someone is making the 577/450 and the 577 Snider! TEN X. They will have a line of lead bulleted black powder loads for both the 577/450 and the Snider shortly. They will be Jaminson's drawn brass with large rifle primers loaded to original specs with a coated hollow base bullet. These will be the perfect thing for the martinis and Sniders!
 Mike

[Double D]

I think you should also keep in mind that in order to get decent drawn cases you need to buy Bertrams made here in Australia.
At present they cost around AUD$120 for 20!!

Jamison $49 for 20., Made inthe USA.  CBC 24 g cases $17 for 25.

Just keep in mind that even if you load your 577/450 with smokeless the barrels are designed for BP....they aren't "Nitro Proofed".
Truthfully you're better buying a Ruger No.1 if you want to shoot alot of rounds from your rifle.

No reason to not shoot your Martini, use cast lead bullets. Cheaper than shooting jacket bullet anyway.

Bertram cases are better than turned cases or the old wrapped original military ones but they are softer than alot of the other brass for different cals by the big companies and it isn't uncommon for them to split after 1 or 2 reloads although that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

True enough, all you have to do is anneal the  neck avery 3rd or 4th reloads and the cases will last you a long time.

I guess I'm saying be aware of what this could cost in the long term.

Intial investment is  higher thann most rifles,  but is coming down. This isn't no $100 Milsurp with ammo available by the case. This is a genuine antique and one of the best shootable antiques on the market to day.

BTW, I'm unaware of any MH 577/450 that pushes the standard bullet, a 400gn cast pill, at 2200fps.

 I am aware of one NfB load that pushes the 480 gr. at 2180 fps. The cases show no sign of pressure.  Ballistics program predicts 36,000 C.U.P. Can't verify as I don't  have the equipment. The load is not worth the bother as recoil in the Martini at this velocity is uncontrollable and brutal. You don't need a load that fast in the Martini.  It will be just fine at 1200 to 1500 fps.

Furthermore, often the clue to finding the correct load for this cartridge is finding the right shaped bullet for it.For obvious reasons this could take ages and until then you have a rifle which costs a fortune in cases and shoots "minute-of-elephant".

I don't know about shape being critical but diameter can be important.  The Martini use bullets larger the 45/70.  A good load is the standard  LoC 85 grs. of Fg, 1 grs of kapok or wool filler, card wad, grease cookie, two card wads and a 480 gr bullet either .464 or .468 diameter depending on which rifle you shoot. And there are several different sources for moulds.  Costs are coming down and source for supplies is becoming more reliable.

As far as accuracy, if you are looking for MOA get a target rifle or varmint gun.

But Minute of Elephant...not





The limiting factor to better accuracy with the Martini is sights. These groups were shot with the barrel mounted v notch.  Oh yeah this is a carbine not a rifle.

My advice is to contact some MH enthusiasts like those at the Martini Henry Forum.
Here's a link:
http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm1

Good advice.

 

If you decide to buy one then great, but do it with your eyes open.
As a side note, I'm unsure why there isn't an enterprising individual out with the right equipment who will specialize in 577/450 cases and a few other similar black powder cartridges, produce them on a part time basis to cut down on costs and undercut Bertrams but charging about half the price but still make a killing.

There is some one who does that, but delivery is slow.

[kombi1976]

Your point about cast bullets is good but it still remains that 577/450 was a BP round and the barrel is designed for this propellant.
Annealing helps but I know of guys who care for their Bertram cases like eggs.
Jamisons sound good.
Hope the product is better.
Yeah, these are great shootable antiques but it isn't like a muzzle loader or a 45/70.
And here in Australia they start at $800.
While the Nepalese cache remains they'll be a little cheaper but as soon as they sell out people won't be in a hurry to part with them.
Is NfB black powder? If not who makes it?
Now you speak of bullet diameter...yes, it's very important.
But all the guys I know who shoot them end up playing with paper patching and a number of different bullet designs.
What shoots well in one can be useless in another.
I seriously thought about investing in a 577/450.....and then thought better of it.

[Double D]

Your point about cast bullets is good but it still remains that 577/450 was a BP round and the barrel is designed for this propellant.

Very true.  It's a black powder cartridge. Now have a  large range of black powders to choose from.  The Type barrel used was adapted from barrels used for long match shooting.

Yeah, these are great shootable antiques but it isn't like a muzzle loader or a 45/70.

 No they aren't but they shoot a lot better than any muzzle loader and will go head to head with a 45/70 and in the hands of a good shoot probably even better at the longer rangers.[/quote]

And here in Australia they start at $800.

About the same U.S

Is NfB black powder? If not who makes it?

NfB is Nitro for Black loading technique.   Smokeless powder as direct substitute for Black powder.  The base load is 40% of your black powder load in IMR 4198.  THe traditional load in the 577/450 is 85 grs of black powder so use 40% or 34 grs. 4198.  

Now you speak of bullet diameter...yes, it's very important.
But all the guys I know who shoot them end up playing with paper patching and a number of different bullet designs.

Yes they do try paper patching and have quite a good time indeed.  And don't forget fillers.  Wool vs Kapok.  Or the new Pufflon.   Some many variable and so much fun playing with them

What shoots well in one can be useless in another.
I seriously thought about investing in a 577/450.....and then thought better of it.

Another truism that applies to all guns in both senses.  Not all loads work in all guns of the same caliber.  If you know what you want to get from a gun and how you want to get it that is part of the game also.  If the 577/450 isn't your cup of tea, then shoot something that you would like. A .223 is no 577/450 and shooting an AR15 is not the same as shooting a MH. Different as night and day

True enough there is a whole new learning curve going from smokeless powder cartridges to black powder cartridges if you have no experience.  Then make the black powder cartridge a big bottle neck and not a straight wall you have even a more learning to do.  

Thats what makes shootong so much fun!

[kombi1976]

Yeah, these(577/450) are great shootable antiques but it isn't like a muzzle loader or a 45/70.

No they aren't but they shoot a lot better than any muzzle loader and will go head to head with a 45/70 and in the hands of a good shoot probably even better at the longer rangers.

My point about the muzzle loader was that MLs are much cheaper to feed as are 45/70s.
Plus if you buy a Ruger #1 you can load the 45/70 almost to 458 Win levels.
If there were a good range of jacketed bullets available for the 577/450 then I'd be inclined to say it could keep up long range but otherwise I'm a little doubtful.
People have spent many years trying to make their 45/70s shoot well.
Martini Henrys on the other hand have spent a lot of time in the wilderness.

NfB is Nitro for Black loading technique.   Smokeless powder as direct substitute for Black powder.  The base load is 40% of your black powder load in IMR 4198.  THe traditional load in the 577/450 is 85 grs of black powder so use 40% or 34 grs. 4198.  

Very interesting......I'll keep that in mind.

What shoots well in one can be useless in another.
I seriously thought about investing in a 577/450.....and then thought better of it.

Another truism that applies to all guns in both senses.  Not all loads work in all guns of the same caliber.  If you know what you want to get from a gun and how you want to get it that is part of the game also.  If the 577/450 isn't your cup of tea, then shoot something that you would like. A .223 is no 577/450 and shooting an AR15 is not the same as shooting a MH. Different as night and day

True enough there is a whole new learning curve going from smokeless powder cartridges to black powder cartridges if you have no experience.  Then make the black powder cartridge a big bottle neck and not a straight wall you have even a more learning to do.  

Thats what makes shootong so much fun!

I have to admit that BP interests me and current developments, or should I say draconian restrictions, mean that our local range is effectively off limits for anything but BP rifles, rimfire rifles and air rifles.  :evil:
As such BP cartridge rifles are becoming more and more interesting to me.
A friend even managed to find a S.W.Silvers Martini Henry trade rifle in 577/450 for AUD$120!!! :eek:
Suffice to say we're all positively green with envy.   :roll:
But apart from that a Martini Henry means big dollars as do most decent BP cartridge rifles and the cases are pricey.
At present I have a 1908 Egyptian Contract Martini Enfield action that will become a rifle probably in 303 Epps and I hope to score a Martini Cadet action for very cheap so long as the paperwork is not problematic.
If you can recommend an interesting BP cartridge for the Cadet action I'd be quite happy to try it.
At present 44 Magnum is the prospective chambering for the Cadet but I'm open to suggestion.
The problem with chambering the Martini Enfield for 577/450 is that it would cost a lot to feed and even if I chambered it for 45/70 or 40-65 Win, which has a certain appeal and can be easily formed from 45/70 brass, the question of when I would actually hunt with it needs to be asked. :|
I don't hunt water buffalo or the like and already have an 8x57 that's up to most game, especially with the Woodleigh 250gn RNSNs.
Plus $120 per 20 cases makes for some pricey plinking, even if they last for a few reloads!

[Double D]

My point about the muzzle loader was that MLs are much cheaper to feed as are 45/70s.

You don't get a Martini Henry if you are looking for a cheap shooter. If you want a cheap shooter get a  BSA 1215 Martini .22 LR.

Plus if you buy a Ruger #1 you can load the 45/70 almost to 458 Win levels.

If you want a a .458 Win Mag get the Ruger 1 in .458 Win Mag and be done with it.  You can always load it down to 45/70 specs.   The 45/70  can only be loaded up in the lower .458 Win Mag range.  

Actually you can load the 577/450 to 458 Win mag specs. The gun will hold them, but you won't like shooting them. You can also load the 577/450 down to 45/70 specs.

If there were a good range of jacketed bullets available for the 577/450 then I'd be inclined to say it could keep up long range but otherwise I'm a little doubtful.

The Metallic Silhouette quys are are shooting out to 500 meters.  The Long Black powder cartridge guys regularly shoot out to 1000 yards and sometimes even beyond.  While I am sitting here typing this I am waiting for the arrival of my  friend who is driving up from Capetown after shooting in the World Long Range Black Powder rifle championships, range 900 meters.

People have spent many years trying to make their 45/70s shoot well. Martini Henrys on the other hand have spent a lot of time in the wilderness.

True enough but how does that make the Martini unshootable?

I have to admit that BP interests me and current developments, or should I say draconian restrictions, mean that our local range is effectively off limits for anything but BP rifles, rimfire rifles and air rifles.  :evil:
As such BP cartridge rifles are becoming more and more interesting to me.
A friend even managed to find a S.W.Silvers Martini Henry trade rifle in 577/450 for AUD$120!!! :eek:
Suffice to say we're all positively green with envy.   :roll:
But apart from that a Martini Henry means big dollars as do most decent BP cartridge rifles and the cases are pricey.

Granted getting started shooting the Martini isn't cheap. But what hobby is anymore.  Spend the money, and get to shooting...you don't have get to a Foreign service helmet until the second year.  

At present I have a 1908 Egyptian Contract Martini Enfield action that will become a rifle probably in 303 Epps

.303 Epps is a good round.

...and I hope to score a Martini Cadet action for very cheap so long as the paperwork is not problematic.
If you can recommend an interesting BP cartridge for the Cadet action I'd be quite happy to try it.

Get an all original rifle in .310 Cadet.   It uses a heeled bullet and brass and dies are availabe. CBE  makes a bullet mould that is just about perfect. It is a very accurate cartridge also.

At present 44 Magnum is the prospective chambering for the Cadet but I'm open to suggestion.

Because of the small barrel tenon the .44 Mag is considered to big for the Cadet.  41 mag is considered the biggest that should be used. If you are going to use the big cartridges you you need to custom stok the rifle as the original small stock will kick the snot out of you in the big rounds.

The problem with chambering the Martini Enfield for 577/450 is that it would cost a lot to feed and even if I chambered it for 45/70 or 40-65 Win, which has a certain appeal and can be easily formed from 45/70 brass, the question of when I would actually hunt with it needs to be asked. :|

Now if you are talking about starting from scratch and building a rifle I would not even consider 577/450, I would go with the 45/70.  But if you are talking about rebarreling a 577/450 that has a good barrel the cost of a new barrel and getting chamber and installed could buy a lot of Martini Brass.

I don't hunt water buffalo or the like and already have an 8x57 that's up to most game, especially with the Woodleigh 250gn RNSNs.
Plus $120 per 20 cases makes for some pricey plinking, even if they last for a few reloads!

I wouldn't hunt Water Buffalo with the 577/450 on purpose either.  But I have used the 577/450 on Kudu and it worked good

[kombi1976]

Very nice kudu, Double D. :grin:
Nice Martini leaning on it too. :wink:
Mmmm, I seem to have somehow missed making my point.
Ok, so shooting isn't cheap per se, but neither does it need to be expensive to get into.
45-70 was my example because it is a black powder round originally, it's a lot cheaper to feed than 577/450 and it comes in a range of rifles that begin at about US$200(H&R/NEF Handi-rifle) and go up from there.
Can the old '450 match it in the field? You're darn tootin!  
But the fact remains that the formula for success using the 45-70 is much more tried and true. :|
I don't know what sort of rifles your friends use for the Long Range BP shooting and I'm sure that they're absolutely amazing shots but I'm pretty sure I couldn't be that way without a LOT of practise.
CHI-CHING!!    
Yep, there goes those dollar signs again. :x
I'd also love to become a good double rifle shooter but that would make 577/450 shooting seem cheap.
The fact remains that each are out of my price range, for the moment at least, and that they may be out of other people's too.
That has been my point all the way along.
Don't get me wrong.
I salivate at the mention of my friend's S.W.Silvers 577/450 but I'm no sugar daddy for pricey rifles & cartridges.
.310 Cadet, eh?  :|
Well, the problem is I like to hunt with my guns and the old .310 is neither fish nor fowl.
It's a bit big for bunnies, hasn't got the range for foxes and doesn't have quite the thump or legs for a roo, pig or goat, not as far as I'm concerned.
Do I sound like I'm searching for reasons not to use the .310?
Maybe, but you don't have to look far.
Dies are on the exy side as are cases and all that fuss for a pedestrian round.
Anyway, I could just go out and buy an original and use it instead.
Kinda takes the fun out of having a custom rifle built.
I presently have a rebarreled & restocked BSA Cadet in 25-20 which sports a Weaver K6 & is great for the bunnies and foxes.
A mate owns a Cadet in 44 Mag which works fine but, as you suggested, it's the absolute outside of the action's dimensions.
It goes without saying that the rifle sports a decent weight barrel and stock to offset the power of the round.
I'll finish by saying(as I have said before) I love 577/450 but it isn't cheap fun by a long stretch.
BTW, for those interested, this is the S.W.Silvers trade rifle I've been speaking of:



The wood actually is very dark & even after cleaning retained a dark colour.
It has original Silvers patent recoil reducing buttplate made of an early type of rubber or plastic(Silvers invented the recoil pad) and a horn fore end tip.
You should also be able to see the safety lever on the side of the action.

[Double D]

I missed this in your post before, but you really don't have any interest in Martini's you just are looking for big cartrdige to shoot cheap.

Well 577/450 just ain't it.

Cheap seems to be what you want, may I suggest you get the  H&R  NEF Handi Gun...

[kombi1976]

I missed this in your post before, but you really don't have any interest in Martini's

Not the case whatsoever.
In fact I really like them and would happily have a locker full of them in various calibres.
Standard orginal military Martinis however aren't necessarily my cup of tea although I do confess a weakness for a nice .303.

you just are looking for big cartrdige to shoot cheap.

Also far from the truth.
In fact I have little use for big cartridges as enjoyable as they may be to shoot.
But again, I said this in an earlier post.

Well 577/450 just ain't it.

No, it isn't cheap and my original point, which was addressed to Fat Tony I might add, was that the inherrent expenses should be taken into account before choosing to buy one.

Cheap seems to be what you want, may I suggest you get the  H&R  NEF Handi Gun...

Thanks for the tip, DD.
If I ever have a need for a 45-70 and I don't have a large frame Martini action I can rebarrel to this cartridge I'll remember your advice. :wink:
Don't worry, I wouldn't butcher a 577/450 to build one.
Please don't mistake this light hearted approach for sarcasm......it isn't.