Author Topic: Still fighting with our .243 (Read 1647 times)

bja105 · « **on:** January 17, 2006, 04:52:40 PM »

After taking a few months off, I attacked my wife's 243 youth again. After getting 12" vertical strings at 50 yards, I gave up for the past season, and had her hunt with the 44 mag(it only strings 6" vertical groups.)

Previously, I had stied an o-ring, no o-ring. I bedded the fore stock hinge plastic thingy to the forestock, and bedded the scope rail to the barrel. I tried factory ammo, and handloads with 75, 85, and 100 grain bullets.

The rifle took a trip to the factory for repair. This stopped the action from opening when fired, but did not help the vertical grouping.

Yesterday I fired the rifle rested on the receiver, with no forestock. The load was 40 grains w 760 and Sierra 85g Game kings. At 50 yards, I shot a 4 shot group of 2.2", in a vertical line. Better, but still unacceptable. I know its not me, the last two days, I've shot many less than 1" @100 groups with my savages.

One thing I noticed, I am concious of the hammer fall before the gun fires. Maybe 1/10 of a second, barely perceptable. Is lock time that slow, or is something wrong? Tonight I removed the hammer extension, and cleaned everything, again.

With the forestock off, and locked up, there is no play. Do I need to by feeler gauges?

If I don't get this thing shooting useful groups soon, its gone.

mt3030 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2006, 05:10:23 PM »

bja105:
Sorry to hear of your problems. I have dealt with same issues on two 243s. I went thru all the tricks/stickies and finaly gave up. Went to a Remington 700 and have no regrets. Others on this forum have had great luck. I'm sure they will join in to list their sucesses. Maybe they can offer some useful suggestions too. Keep us posted on the outcome. Good luck.
Wally

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2006, 05:12:23 PM »

How many rounds have you shot through it?

Are you letting the barrel cool off between shots? A minute should be enough but I have no experience with the 243 so maybe more time is needed?

You mentioned lock-time. You trigger technique is very important with the NEF action. The trigger must be pulled all the way through or you'll get inconsistant force of the hammer to the firing pin. This could be the cause of your vertical stringing problem.

HTH.

aulrich · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2006, 06:51:05 PM »

I don't know if you could ever eliminate vertical stringing in a handi, but it should do better than what you are getting. How tight does you gun lock up, is there any precevable wiggle with or wothout the forarm on? One more thing to check is how much gap there is between the barrel and get a feeler guage and see how thick of a guage you can close the gun on with the bottom edge of the feeler guage basically centerline of the chamber.

Fred M · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2006, 07:45:20 PM »

bja105.
You want to be sure a loaded shell is not sticking out of the barrel face. That would give inconsistant closure of the latch, make sure the latch fully closes and there is absolutely no lube or oil on the the latch seat.

A solid hinge conection is a big help too. Remove any and all looseness any where.

It seems if you a concious of the hammer falling you may be flinching. Easy to do with a hammer gun.

bja105 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2006, 03:16:35 AM »

There is no movement when locked up. I have been sizing my cases more, thinking that was not letting the action close consistently, no change.

I really think my trigger pull is not appropriate for a hammer gun. I use a "suprise trigger" or variation. I get the sight picture I want, and increase trigger pressure, until it goes off. I do this pretty quickly, and it works well on the bench, I speed the process up for off hand. Its like a quickie version of the target archer's Back tension. I Dont see how the hammer gun is different, but maybe.

Fred, I don't think I'm flinching. I made a batch of 7.5*55 with a hangfire problem. Even with random, .5 second hang fires, I shot some 1-2 " groups at 50 yards with the issue sights on my K-31. I also shot some worse groups, so who knows?

Anyway,guys please describe your trigger pull.

bja105 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2006, 03:18:43 AM »

There is no movement when locked up. I have been sizing my cases more, thinking that was not letting the action close consistently, no change.

I really think my trigger pull is not appropriate for a hammer gun. I use a "suprise trigger" or variation. I get the sight picture I want, and increase trigger pressure, until it goes off. I do this pretty quickly, and it works well on the bench, I speed the process up for off hand. Its like a quickie version of the target archer's Back tension. I Dont see how the hammer gun is different, but maybe.

Fred, I don't think I'm flinching. I made a batch of 7.5*55 with a hangfire problem. Even with random, 1/2 second hang fires, I shot some 1-2 " groups at 50 yards with the issue sights on my K-31. I also shot some worse groups, so who knows?

Anyway,guys please describe your trigger pull.

one$$shot · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2006, 03:45:58 AM »

My new 243 is working perfectly as far as I can tell. I'm still in the break-in process but I'm getting one inch groups at 50 yards. I can't say I notice anything with the trigger. It is at the factory five pound setting and that doesn't bother me at all at this point. I may feel differently about that as time goes on. [/i]

aulrich · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2006, 09:49:47 AM »

Trigger follow through might be an issue, because of the transfer bar system the trigger needs to be fully depressed or the transfer bar could fall out of place, causeing inconsistant ignition. If your just sneeking them off the transfer bar could be falling when the hammer strikes

Also how are you resting the gun while shooting off of the bench, there is a tendancey for handis to shoot better supported close to the hindge pin, though not always.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2006, 10:45:41 AM »

After you fire a shot,try cocking and pulling the trigger again. Pay careful attention to the crosshairs and see how much they move when the hammer falls .Mine really moves alot if I rest it on the hinge pin,but barely moves when on the bipod.Just make sure there's a fired rd. in the chamber when you dry fire it. Mine will not shoot worth a darn with out the bipod. Digger

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2006, 03:51:06 PM »

It's not that the handi is a hammer gun, it's that it has the transfer bar ignition system, a safety innovation of H&R.

These rifles need a different technique; ya gotta pull the trigger all the way through, almost like jerking the trigger. you don't squeeeezzze like with a benched bolt gun, you apply sufficient pressure to pull the finger lever(trigger) all the way to where it stops, usually against the guard.

In time with practice it's possible to educate your finger to do this without disturbing the aim.

These rifles are meant to be shot in the feild at game, with a makeshift, or no, rest.

I'm no expert, but this was explained to me several years ago.

Hopefully this will help you out.

MnMike · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2006, 04:20:48 PM »

I finally got my .243 to shoot. 1.25" at 100 yds. This is not great by Contender pistol standards, but it is good enough for a low cost rifle.

The last thing I did before the groups shrunk from 4" was to reduce the load, seat the bullets out to the lands, and try 100 gr Sierras (I was using 70-75 gr bullets for coyotes). I thank all on the forum who told me about bagging under the hinge, floating the forend, checking the play, and the other normal fixes.

Each gun has some quirks, it is sort of fun making them behave.

mike

Fred M · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2006, 04:56:58 PM »

The way I fire a Handi is different from all my other rifles.
I had trouble too with the the trigger follow through on the Handi.

Try this. This is an old trick from my pistol shooting and three position target shooting.

Instead of pulling the trigger with the front of your finger, curl your finger around the trigger at the first finger joint, there is very liittle meat at the joint, Your wrist moves slightly forward. You wont be able to stop your pull and follow through is almost automatic.

In this manner your pull is like closeing a fist. you push your thumb forward and your finger backwards by tightning up your hand.

But you have to conentrate on the hand position. I shoot a skeet gun the same way for an instant pull.

Once you do that for a while you will become concious of your trigger finger and where to put it. No trouble shooting tight groups that way.

And don't try any that free recoil stuff, its not designed for a Handi. Besides it is useless in field shooting.

Learn to get a repeatable grip with your hand in perfect position for your trigger finger. This is gospel in three position target shooting you never change your grip and your let off. Specially in timed and papid fire with a bolt gun.

bja105 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2006, 03:30:06 AM »

I'm off to the range again, this time with 100g interlocks and H4831sc. I'll work on my trigger pull, this is going to be hard. I have been using free recoil, mostly because its a youth stock and I'm 6'4".

I bet the trigger pull is an issue, as my wife has shot this rifle better than me, and she just yanks the trigger.

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2006, 03:44:19 AM »

Quote

...I have been using free recoil, mostly because its a youth stock and I'm 6'4"....I bet the trigger pull is an issue...

I bet it is the "free recoil" method of testing - you had not told us that before! The slow lock time and light weight of the Handi means that rifle movement prior to bullet exit can be substantial. I find that light weight hammer rifles require a firmer hold, supported against the shoulder and held by the forend. I bet that your current method of firing the rifle is the problem.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2006, 05:47:04 AM »

If a person is using the Free Recoil method correctly,the gun is sitting perfectly balanced in the bags and won't move,due to the bags support on the sides of the stock and reciever..Those that don't shoot this way have a hard time understanding that.On a Handi..this will require the rifle to be in a more up-right position than what normal bags allow,and the rifle needs to be situated so it won't tip.

This is only for bench work,it isn't meant for any type of field hunting and if the rifle is going to be used for hunting then practice from field positions will always be needed as well,to see how well you actually shoot from those positions.Free recoiling a rifle is only seeing what the gun is capable of...what your doing is reducing the variables somewhat.When done correctly..it's repeatable and it works.

bja105...yes...the hammer extention can effect the lock time,and has been discussed before.Anything that will slow the hammer down,can allow any movement to be exaggerated and can effect overall group size.

FWIW...Here's a interestinf article for anyone wanting to know a-little more about free recoil..it doesn't go into specific details..but is part of the mans new record..

If a person is using the Free Recoil method correctly,the gun is sitting perfectly balanced [u]in[/u] the bags and won't move,due to the bags support on the sides of the stock and reciever..Those that don't shoot this way have a hard time understanding that.On a Handi..this will require the rifle to be in a more up-right position than what normal bags allow,and the rifle needs to be situated so it won't tip.

This is only for bench work,it isn't meant for any type of field hunting and if the rifle is going to be used for hunting then practice from field positions will always be needed as well,to see how well you actually shoot from those positions.Free recoiling a rifle is only seeing what the gun is capable of...what your doing is reducing the variables somewhat.When done correctly..it's repeatable and it works.

bja105...yes...the hammer extention can effect the lock time,and has been discussed before.Anything that will slow the hammer down,can allow any movement to be exaggerated and can effect overall group size.

FWIW...Here's a interesting article for everyone..it doesn't go into specific details..but is part of this mans new record..[url]http://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html

Mac

Lone Star · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2006, 09:31:54 AM »

Given all the other things the OP has tried, something major is still causing his extreme vertical stringing, and I find it tough to fault the ammo or the action lockup for this much shot dispersion. His method of testing is the biggest variable compared to other Handi owners. The fact that his wife gets better groups is another clue, I doubt that she shoots in free recoil.

IME the free-recoil method fails with many light rifles and ends up actually increasing the variables as the rifle recoils (where it matters most). I shot competitively in ASSRA and CBA matches, and in lightweight hammer rifles a true "free recoil" method just didn't work. The rifle was free to randomly bounce around too much and groups suffered. If the rifle ends up in a slightly different position after each shot, this is evidence that free-recoil isn't working.

It would be a mistake to compare a Handi with a BR rifle. On a benchrest rifle the free recoil method is common, but those rifles have little recoil and use stocks with flat bottoms to consistently guide the rifle in recoil as it rides custom bags. A Handi on two soft bags won't show its best accuracy by this method - I've tried it with my .45-70 Handi (and with my .22-250 Ruger No.1 for that matter).

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2006, 10:37:53 AM »

Lone Star.
I 100% agree. A moderate firm grip and consistant grip like I mentioned with thumb pressure down on the fore end against the front bag or rest works best with hunting rifles. And of course you have to apply the same holds and pressure for each and every shot. No changes, like golferes. You go through a count dount down setup.

There is no change of impact when I use the x-sticks or the bipod or a top of a fence post with a mitt under the forearm. Shooting prone or sitting with sling will do just as well.

levi joseph · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2006, 11:08:13 AM »

I have experinced the same problem from a youth stocked 243 win handi but not quiet as extreme as bja105, but I'm not as big a fella as he is, It took me a while to figure it out but I did after 20 or 30 rounds. I was not holding the stock aginst my shoulder and the recoil was causing the gun to verticl string the shots . and since the rifle is for my kid to hunt with I just started folding a towel up and using it to extend the length of the stock. problem solved .dont know if this is a solution but it fixed my problem

safetysheriff · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2006, 11:31:10 AM »

Quote from: bja105

1. I have been sizing my cases more, thinking that was not letting the action close consistently, no change. ARE YOU SEATING THE BULLET DEEP ENOUGH TO ALLOW PROPER CLOSURE OF THE ACTION?

2. I really think my trigger pull is not appropriate for a hammer gun. I use a "suprise trigger" or variation. I get the sight picture I want, and increase trigger pressure, until it goes off. I do this pretty quickly,
ANY TIME I HURRY A TRIGGER SQUEEZE I SCREW UP, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN. I SOMEWHAT AGREE WITH A 'SURPRISE' FIRING OF A WEAPON....IF ONE IS CAPABLE OF HOLDING VERY STILL.

3. Fred, I don't think I'm flinching. I made a batch of 7.5*55 with a hangfire problem. Even with random, 1/2 second hang fires, I shot some 1-2 " groups at 50 yards IF YOU HAVE ANY HANGFIRES YOU MAY NOT BE SEATING THE PRIMERS CORRECTLY.....FIRMLY ENOUGH. I KNOW THAT I USE A HAND-HELD RCBS PRIMER FOR MOST CARTRIDGES BUT HAVE HAD TO USE A FORSTER BENCH-MOUNTED PRIMER FOR THE 7MM REM' MAGS TO GET THEM TO SEAT PROPERLY. NO HANGFIRE IS ACCEPTABLE. NONE.....

Anyway,guys please describe your trigger pull.

I'm not shouting above, only trying to react to each given paragraph.

I also think you are too tall for a youth rifle with too much flex in your elbow to control the rifle properly as a possible problem.

take care,

ss'

mitchell · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2006, 12:49:55 PM »

well with my handi i shoot my best groups free recoil. thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

just like loading for a rifle , try it all and use what works best (for you).

bja105 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2006, 01:37:14 PM »

Fired 20 more today, mixed results. I had 3 rifles today; the .243 Handi, a Rem 512 .22lr, and a Savage 12fv .223. The handi and savage are so different. My sand bags and techniques are all tailored to the Savage, and I shoot 5 shot groups near .5" @ 100 with it. Free recoil and a suprise trigger work well with the savage, not the handi.

I did alot of dry firing, practicing a controlled "yank." Fred, I like the first knuckle method, its what I use on my bow release. I still had a few poor trigger pulls, and 6" vertical flyers. At one point, I nailed my nose with the scope. I had a fit, took a break, played with the 22 and then tried something different.

I knelt behind the bench and only used 1 sand bag, concentrating on a very deliberate trigger pull. I put 8 shot into one target, quickly, with no worrying about barrel heat. At 100 yards I got a 3.3" group, with a diagonal pattern. This is not good at all, but much better. 8 shots on the paper is an improvement!

One more new, bad thing. One of those final 8 clearly keyholed. I never had that happen before. The load was 41g H4831sc, cci primer, win brass, and a 100 grain hornady interlock. Now I'm back to wondering how much is the rifle, the load, or me.

Next trip, I'll take one of my slip on recoil pads to lengthen the stock. And maybe some lighter bullets.

mitchell · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2006, 04:40:42 PM »

Quote from: bja105

100 grain hornady interlock.

although my rifle says different , is a 100 grain bullet pushing it for a 1-10 twist at 243 velocities?

You want some accuracy try the 88 grain bergers , good BC but still good in a 1-10 twist.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2006, 04:49:04 PM »

According to this chart which is based on the Greenhill formula, 1:10" shouldn't stabilize a 100gr .243" bullet, but mine and many here shoot 95gr and 100gr extremely well, so I guess it just depends on the bullet design and the individual rifle.

http://www.gmdr.com/rcbs/rcbstext8.htm

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2006, 04:52:44 PM »

Quote:
"...Yesterday I fired the rifle rested on the receiver, with no forestock. The load was 40 grains w 760 and Sierra 85g Game kings. At 50 yards, I shot a 4 shot group of 2.2", in a vertical line. Better, but still unacceptable. "

So, you've shot a smaller group at 100yds than your previous best at 50. I'd call that progress.

One thing that had me wondering was the different loads you were trying. Now that you've got the rifle to group better, you ought to be able to find a load that will group better.

I agree that you ought to try a lighter bullet, or a shorter one if you want to stick with the 100 grain weight.

It seems odd that only one bullet keyholed, the last one. maybe you need to get some of the copper fouling out of the bore; maybe the bore needs to be polished. I don't see where you've mentioned doing this yet--I know it helped my 25-06. If you decide to polish the bore, be sure as you can to get all the copper fouling out of the bore, then follow the proceedure in the stickies.

I think you're almost there, and that the slip-on pad is a good idea--I was gonna suggest it.

Don't be discouraged if you can't do better than MOA; for deer 1-1/2" at 100 would be acceptable for me.

Just my opinion, but for me, in the feild, carryability and shootability count for more than the ability of the gun/load to shoot into MOA or less. 3 MOA guns have killed many many deer.

You're a lucky man having a wife that's sharing the hunting experience with you--don't stress out over an inch on the paper.

RemingtonMagnum · « **Reply #25 on:** January 20, 2006, 06:41:48 AM »

BJA105 I am tempted to make an attempt to buy you 243. For one reason only to make it shoot better. While I do not have all the answers I have one that has not been discussed on any board that I have read about...

First of all I treat all my barrels with LN2 treatment that I have developed! Not to be discussed!

Do you know what frost frozen ground looks like all puckered up and raised from the normal ground natural line? You know what a Volcano looks like. You know what a ½ marble looks like when broken in half. Points to be used shortly.

(A) Remove your scope.
(B) Remove your scope rail from the barrel.
(C) Look at the drilling and taped holes.
(D) Do you see any of the above descriptions show up on you drilled and tapped holes. Even minor hole splash back can cause all your problems. Is the hole wallowed around the outside about 2 to 10 Thousandths? Is the entire hole bubbled up like a half marble by a few thousandth?

To solve these possible problems I like to take JB Weld and mix a tiny amount. I prefer to allow the JB Weld to start to stiffen. Then put a small runner between all holes and each end. Example. I put the JB Weld on all the ----------- spaces and the 0 is the drilled holes.

------0----------0-----------------------------------0----
Tighten the holding screws and allow to sit for 24 hours. This will stop the possible rocking of the wollowed and Volcano/marble raised tapped holes from being of any destruction any longer.

I have purchased two H&R rifles that were untamed after all the normal adjustments. Then LN2 treated the barrel and JB Weld under the scope mount resulting in a proper shooting firearm. Maybe the JB Weld will solve your problem.

Just the blubber back from drilling with a dull bit will give you several Thousandths of rocking room.

Sometime my description is not the best because of know things I forget to share. If you need any further help just contact me.

Don Jackson Remington Magnum/Ultramag

RemingtonMagnum · « **Reply #26 on:** January 20, 2006, 07:01:43 AM »

You can take a sharp knife and cut the excess JB Weld off the scope base.
Best removed while still pliable! Use a perminant black marker to color the Grey JB Weld after drying well.

Don Jackson Remington Magnum/Ultramag

MSP Ret · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2006, 07:20:19 AM »

, LN2? Now this sounds just like the things I like to learn about...Will you be discussing or explaining it later I hope? And thanks for the info and fix for the sloppy factory holes, very helpful and an easy fix, the best kind!!!....<><.... :grin:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2006, 07:46:13 AM »

MSP, LN2 treatment is the cryogenic process for metal treatment...

http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/

http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/shooting.htm

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#deepcryogenic

bja105 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 20, 2006, 08:54:08 AM »

Sorry If this is another double post. I work the handi rifle forum about as well as I shoot a Handi rifle!

Rem mag, The scope rail is bedded to the barrel with Accraglass Gel, the full length of the rail. Once I get the rifle more consistent, I think I might remove the bedding past the chamber, maybe this will reduce barrel heating poi change.
If you have a short action, left handed rifle, I'd talk trade. Wifey is left eye dominant, and not fond of recoil.

I think I'm headed in the right direction with this rifle. I should get my wife out to the range to show me how its done. Cheatermk3, I am lucky to have a wife like mine. I have more fun hunting with her than any other time.

I didn't get to shoot the handi today. I got a new factory take-off 25-06 barrel for one of my savages last night. I headspaced it, opened up the barrel chanel, and made some handloads from .270 brass and 75g V-Max. Today, I fired 35 rounds, and I already have 2 loads that put 3 shots inside an inch @100. Rem Factory 120G shot about 4 Inches! I only bought them for the brass, anyway.

This easy accuracy is why I have 5 savage rifles. 4 of them shoot well, the m99.......Well, it was dads and its a classic, but frustrating.

Anyway, back to the handi 243. I need some new loads to try. I have some Sierra 85 grain bthp. Does anybody have a handi-proven load with H4831sc, H4895, H4350, Bl-C(2), Varget, or Win 760?