Author Topic: Traditions Pursuit Pro  (Read 3089 times)

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Offline Cimarron

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Traditions Pursuit Pro
« on: January 21, 2006, 03:01:05 PM »
I have just purchased a Traditions Pursuit Pro 50.  I am very pleased with the performance.  I compared it to the CVA Omega and Omega Pro, but I just was not happy with the thickness of the barrels.  I realize Traditions is also a Spanish gun, but it is well built, solid feeling, and the cleanest ML I have shot... no breech blow back at all.

I have started playing with loads.  I have chosen to feed it 2 pellets 50/50 of Pyrodex or 777.  It seems to digest both loads with a very minimal recoil (compared to a .54 inline I have had at 80 gr 777).  The 28" barrel is heavy enough to soak up some of the recoil and should produce pretty maximum velocity.  I have learning what it likes to digest.  I've shot the .451 240 gr XTP with the HPH24 MMP sabots... three shots touching at 20 yards... (best I can shoot with sand bag rests).  The .429 240 XTP with green T/C sabots are running close and the .40 200 gr. T/C shockwaves are right in the same grouping.

I cannot afford an Encore (my son has one, but I spent about 1/3 on the Pursuit).  I don't like the NEF breech which spews gas and looks chunky.  As I said, I didn't care for the barrels in the CVA Optima line.

I have had an inline (an older Apollo... 80 model) but didn't like the spew in the face and not sure the newer bolt actions are really clear of that... didn't want a scope sand blasted with powder scalding.  I like the ability to easly clean the break opens... pull the breech plug and clean up is a snap.  

The Pursuit isn't an Encore, but neither does it cost anywhere as much.  For a good shooting, solid gun... with clean looks and a low mounted scope, this is a gun worth investigating.  Respect the load data... I will take 777 50/50 recommendations with 2 pellets.  Can't imagine why I would want to push it to 3 pellets with Pyrodex 50/50, but then some want to push the envelope... get a Savage or Ultimate and load 4 pellets.

From my opinion, I'm happy!  If you're looking, form your opinion!  I've been building and shooting black powder for about 30 years.  I've learned what I like.
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline Camper

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 05:54:51 AM »
Hey Tom,

I have a Traditions pursuit Pro as well and feel that this gun, (even though it is not an encore) is well built, solid , fits well when shouldering,and most important shoots well.  

I have found that my most accurate load is 130gr of 777 pellets behind a 250gr Hornady SST.  I am getting 1 1/2 to 2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards.  I was using 100 gr of 777 pellets  but found that there was no change in accuracy when moving up to 130gr of 777 so why not have a little extra umphhh behind the SST if it does not affect accuracy?  I also did not find much of a difference in recoil with the increased charge.

Anyhow,  I took two does with the pursuit pro this year both at around 100 yards  both were complete pass thoughs.  

Camper

Offline Cimarron

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I'll give that a try
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 02:50:25 PM »
I'll be working up load in the next couple of months... mostly now just enjoying blowing smoke and tickeled that the shots will group at all.  I had a #11 percussion cap in-line and I was never sure it would shoot, or hang fire... and after three caps you discover you flinch because you don't know if it will go off.

I really like the feel of the Pursuit Pro... it shoulders nicely... and with the proper scope fitting, I can use the low mounts which gives it a streamline feel... and when I pull the trigger... it smokes... every time.

Have you noticed that your trigger lightens up with use?  I have a snap cap and have worked the action... I have no idea if the hammer spring can be adjusted with would lighten the trigger, but just using it seems to have polished things up a bit.  Have you noticed?
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline MS10point

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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 04:35:06 PM »
I was at a local Walmart picking up some closeout deals on Friday and as I was browsing the black powder stuff an older man ask me if I new anything about muzzle loaders and I told him that I did. Long story short, he wanted to know if the muzzle loader he was buying was any good. He opened the box to show me a Traditions Pursuit SS with Mossy Oak stock.
I told him that it was a fine gun. He then ask me if I thought it was worth $89. After I choked on my gum I ask the salesman if he another at that price. He said that he had just sold his last one. I have been to 3 other stores in the area but no more deals like that. I have a new Encore but I would love to buy the Pursuit for my son. As always I was a day late and a dollar short.

10pt
10Pt
When life gives you lemons.....go to deer camp!

Offline Camper

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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 05:50:29 AM »
Cimarron wrote,

Quote
Have you noticed that your trigger lightens up with use? I have a snap cap and have worked the action... I have no idea if the hammer spring can be adjusted with would lighten the trigger, but just using it seems to have polished things up a bit. Have you noticed?


I have noticed that the trigger is starting to get a little better or I am getting more used to it.. LOL  

I am not familiar with a snap cap,  could you explain please?

Let me know if you can adjust the hammer spring I would like to know as well.

Camper

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 01:28:14 PM »
Camper...

I was in BassPro the other day and found that Traditions is producing a solid brass "snap cap" in the size of the 209 primer.  Gunsmiths tell me that dry firing a gun isn't good for it... there needs to be a contact for the firing pin... so "snap caps" are pretty common for center fire cartridges.  Traditions doesn't list them on their website, but it is marked Traditions Firearms on the package.

Perhaps I'm like you... getting used to the trigger, but I do think the feel is better.

I had a S&W L frame .357 pistol and lightening the hammer spring lightened the trigger pull.  I have wondered if the same thing would work with the Pursuit action.  Normally most guys "polish" the sear to lighten the trigger pull, but that is a total disassembly.  The spring sometimes is just a swap out if you can get to it.  You have to be cautious... lightening the spring tension makes the trigger easier to pull, but too much and the hammer doesn't fall hard enough to fire the primer.

I was no big deal to find "after market" spring sets for the S&W, but I've never even heard of anyone dealing with that here.
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 04:25:29 PM »
Hello from Utah.
 My boys and I are new to muzzleloading and this site.
Thanks for the great info.
Our  walmart sells everything real cheap after all the hunting seasons close. They keep lowering the prices until they sell. I got a T.C. Omega for $109.00 and a C.V.A. optima (nickle) for $78.00 . The T.C. at Cabela's is $319.00 and the CVA $235.00 . thats a $367.00 savings. So next  November - December keep a eye  on your local Walmart .

   Take Care-
                 Rob.






Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 04:41:00 PM »
UtahRob, welcome to Graybeard. Also great pic's.   :D
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

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Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 04:50:29 PM »
Thank You Redhawk !!

Offline 2droptines

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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2006, 04:32:30 PM »
I just purchased a Pursuit Pro myself recently and am looking forward to getting out to the range with it!  I topped it with a Bushnell Elite 2-7x.  I was very impressed with the camo finish on both the stock and barrel.

Previously I owned a .50cal Traditions Evolution LD with the camo stock and nickel barrel.  I was shooting a 300gr. Hornady SST with 150gr. of 777 (pellets).  However, I think that with my new gun, I'll experiment with the 250gr. SST's

I plan on getting the shotgun barrel possibly for turkey hunting!   Has anyone else on this forum purchased other barrels for their Pursuit Pro??  :wink:

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2006, 08:13:18 PM »
2droptines...

That was one of the reasons I choose the Pursuit... not necessarily the shotgun barrell, but the alternative calibers... thinking that it might be fun eventually to put a .45 caliber barrell on the gun.  I am also curious if others have taken this move?
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 12:11:57 PM »
I have  Traditions Pursuit .  I just ordered a new .50 nickle 28'' barrell  for it.   I like the looks of the flooted nickle barrells. I also like the camo stocks.  
                                                      Take care-
                                                                    Rob

Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 05:42:11 PM »
Quote
Can't imagine why I would want to push it to 3 pellets with Pyrodex 50/50, but then some want to push the envelope... get a Savage or Ultimate and load 4 pellets.



AMEN BROTHER

Three Pyrodex pellets will produce around 27,000 PSI. I doubt your Traditions rifle is proofed for much more than 10,000 PSI, as are most Spanish made ML barrels. How CVA and Traditions can continue to recommend two and three pellet loads of Pyrodex and 777 are beyond me.
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 06:20:39 PM »
Well "riddleofsteel"  I've stated my opinion, but I wondered when the question of Spanish steel would come up.

Would the readers of this thread respond to some questions?

Have you personally "proofed" your barrels?  

Dixie Gun Works defines "proofing" as loading twice as much charge as you ever anticipate shooting, packing twice the bullets and then setting the gun off with a long string.  If it survives, then considered it "proofed" for your shooting needs.

Right now I'm having fun shooting what I consider "safe" loads... 2 50/50 777.  But when the new wears off and I would feel the risk to try, I might just scare up an old tire to the butt of the gun into and the other edge to rest (not scrape) the gun and "proof" the barrel.

What charges do you feel comfortable with... what has your gun "digested" without showing signs of indigestion?

Just curious!
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2006, 01:15:11 AM »
1. There is no need to try and blow up your rifle to "proof" it. The manufacter should have done this already. In the case of Spainish made barrels, most are proof tested before leaving Spain as per Spainish law. A close inspection of your barrel should show at least one proof mark. Typically that proof mark as found on Traditions, CVA, Winchester guns indicate a 10,000 psi proof.
"Readily available, independent data such as found in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Reloading Manual, 2nd Ed., written by Sam Fadala, shows that a 100 grain load of Pyrodex pellets pushing a 240 grain Hornady Sabot develops 20,200 PSI—over DOUBLE the pressure the barrel is proofed to. A 3 pellet load, 150 grains of Pyrodex pellets, develops 27,000 PSI. This specific example is found on page 172 of the Lyman book, other examples abound, some with markedly higher pressures."

2. My interest in this topic is academic at best. Personally I would not own such a weapon. The muzzle loaders that I do own are proof tested by the factory to well beyond any load that I would ever shoot. No offense to you and the other owners of such guns but If I did own one I would not use a load that has been proven to even approach the proof tested limits of such barrels much less exceed them.

IMHO

YMMV
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline Camper

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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2006, 04:32:16 AM »
Funny thing as I was reading this post I decided to call Traditions and ask them how many PSI the barrels were proofed at for the Pursuit pro.

The customer service department told me that the are proofed for well over a maximum load of 150gr of 777 or pyrodex pellets.  He then told me that the spanish house of eibar will only stamp the barrel with a lower proof because of liability.  

I then asked well what is the amount of PSI that the barrels are proofed to and he did not have that info.  I then asked where I could find this info out and he told me that he did not know and stated (sounding a little annoyed with me) that as long as I stay with the recommended 150 gr or lower that they guarantee there will be no problems and that again these barrels are proofed way over the 150 gr maximum charge.

I can't say that I am too impresses with this call to Traditions.  They should know exactly  what there barrels are proofed to.

Anyone know where I could find out this info???

I know that 150gr of 777 have not shown any pressure signs with my Pursuit pro and I still feel comfortable shooting it.

I do think that Traditions should be a little more upfront and be able to give the info to its customers.

I think I will email the manager!

Offline Camper

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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2006, 04:34:24 AM »
Funny thing as I was reading this post I decided to call Traditions and ask them how many PSI the barrels were proofed at for the Pursuit pro.

The customer service department told me that the are proofed for well over a maximum load of 150gr of 777 or pyrodex pellets.  He then told me that the spanish house of eibar will only stamp the barrel with a lower proof because of liability.  

I then asked well what is the amount of PSI that the barrels are proofed to and he did not have that info.  I then asked where I could find this info out and he told me that he did not know and stated (sounding a little annoyed with me) that as long as I stay with the recommended 150 gr or lower that they guarantee there will be no problems and that again these barrels are proofed way over the 150 gr maximum charge.  

I can't say that I am too impresses with this call to Traditions.  They should know exactly  what there barrels are proofed to.

Anyone know where I could find out this info???

I know that 150gr of 777 have not shown any pressure signs with my Pursuit pro and I still feel comfortable shooting it.

I do think that Traditions should be a little more upfront and be able to give the info to its customers.

I think I will email the manager!

Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2006, 12:36:21 PM »
I doubt any of these companies will ever show you any proof these barrels are safe, because;

1. They do not manufacture anything, they import. I know of no testing facility that is maintained by CVA or Traditionsthat tests ML's.
 
2. The loads they recommend exceed the maximum load set for ML's by the powder makers themselves. Ask them why they recommend three pellet (150 grain) Pyrodex loads when Hodgen Powder sets the limit at two pellets. 777 is clearly shown by the maker as hotter than either BP or Pyrodex and yet they recommend a 100 grain maximum load of 777 with bullets from 180 to 300 grain in sabots. (Wonder what the pressure of that load is?)

3. Ask them why the difference between a standard ML'er and a "magnum" ML'er is the length of the barrel ONLY. Both barrels have the same proof stamp.
 
If you want a 27,000 psi load going off next to your head in a tube clearly proofed for 10,000 PSI so be it. I feel better with a ML made by an AMerican company that proofs their barrels at least two or three to one safety margin.
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2006, 12:41:46 PM »
Hey, this thread might get interesting!

No harm, no foul... all just thought it would be interesting to find out personal observations.  

I've shot muzzle loaders for 30 years...  Buyer beware, BUT when someone has shot a gun for some time with a given load... I respect their experience.  Just because it works for you doesn't mean I'll charge a load at max, but like any good reloader smokeless or black power, you work you way up to maximum.

Personally, I like the weight of the steel in the Pursuit Pro... but I also know there are tell-tale signs of excessive pressure even in a ML... no flattened primers as in cartridges... but I've looked at the 209 primers of the Pursuit Pro and they show no signs of excessive pressure at 100 gr... and it doesn't surprise me there would be none a 150 gr.  I'm just not sure I want to handle the recoil... but that's preference.

If I were Camper, I sure wouldn't get nervous... I've shot .357's and never questioned factory loads, but I've been very cautious in building my reloads... and factory loads are hotter than I enjoy shooting.  

I know the CVA Apollo issue of almost 10 years ago, and hey... I never fire a new gun sholdered to my face (I have seen stocks crack too!)  I'm a little riskier with my trigger finger, but I would have it if I didn't judge it sound enough to take a beginning load.

Well... that should keep this thread going for a while!

Hey guys!  I'm keeping watch with my dying father... remember THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline Camper

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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2006, 05:46:08 AM »
No Nervousness here!!!

The reason I went to 130 gr of 777 is not because I want to see how much powder I can jam in the barrel before it explodes, it's because it is just as accurate out of my M/L whenusing  100 gr.  I just get a little more distance and umphh out of it with no noticable recoil.  

I did email Traditions and complained about the phone conversation with their customer support person.  I am waiting for there reply and I will post both the email and the reply.


Camper

Offline Keith Lewis

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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2006, 06:28:04 AM »
From what I have been able to find out; CVA and Traditions are marketing firms that do not do any manufacturing or official testing of any of their products. I believe that the sales people do shoot some of the rifles and probably do believe that they are safe; however, asking them for specific metalurgical or strength requirements will likely fall on deaf ears. I also doubt that Thompson Center will tell you exactly what their maximum proof pressure is as they do not want someone attempting to reach that level. I do however believe that T/C does do the testing and I believe their claims that the rifle will stand 150gr. loads. Traditions and CVA is another matter as far as I am concerned. My Pursuit is limited by me to 100gr. loads or less and that is not 777 but Pyrodex or Black Powder. 777 in my Pursuit is limited to 80gr. with 300gr. bullets.

Offline poncaguy

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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2006, 07:30:03 AM »
I had a Pursuit LT that I sold, great rifle , but I didn't trust it. Bought an Omega Z5 and very happy with it. Also have an Encore 209x50 that I like very well. I don't worry now when I use 120 grains AP FFG or 3 777 pellets.Black powder recoil never has bothered me, more of a shove than my 45-70 Handi............. :?

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2006, 11:19:17 AM »
poncaguy

Well, every guy has a right to be comfortable.  However, I've seen guys, just as you did... sell guns (probably cheap) not because they had failed in any way, but because of fear that they might.

I think, if I were concerned enough that the gun would fail (at listed safe loads) I would be tempted to "test" it (safely) at a higher load... if it blew up, then I'd know for a fact that those guns were unsafe at any speed... or I would know that the guy I'd sell it to wouldn't have it blow up in his face.

But hey... I drove a Ford Explorer too... and respected it's high center of gravity... and felt perfectly safe in it.

I guess my concern is a lot of criticism of the Spanish guns without anyone checking them out.  Granted, I'd too like to see the company do that, but I also understand why T/C doesn't... and know that in our lawsuit manic society, it could be corporate suicide.

However, isn't there anyone in our midst who would be curious to just risk that $89 Walmart rilfe and load it to 200 gr with a 50' string standing behind their car for the heck of it to just answer the question for themselves?

I guess I'm a fine candidate... don't plan to do that with my Pursuit... I bought it from one of the most reputible gun stores in the area... was impressed that the Traditions was the only other ML than the T/C or Savage they carried... and in inquiring, they had never had a complaint from their customers and I paid well over the $89 price tag from Walmart... what I paid for was the integrity of people who sell only guns and shooting supplies... their reputation... and their confidence.

Lord help us if we can only go ML shooting if we can afford a T/C.  PS... and American made?  I drive a Ford, but I'd love to afford an Audi too!

Hey guys... just to keep the pot stiring.  Choice... now THAT's American!
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. OÂ’Rourke

Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2006, 12:25:25 PM »
I have no problem with cheap muzzleloaders per say. Most of the ones I have seen are proofed to around 10,000 PSI which should handle normal and safe BP and Pyrodex loads just fine. It is the questionable practice of recommending "magnum" loads I take issue with.
Personally I would rather see more ML hunters in the woods not just the ones that can afford to drop 400 to 900 dollars on a one week a year gun.
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline poncaguy

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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2006, 12:58:40 PM »
My Omega Z5 was only $275. I fired my Pursuit LT, which I really liked, with 3 777 pellets and 348 Powerbelts, shot two does, no problems. But, in the back of my mine........was that gnawing doubt everytime I pulled the trigger....... :?  Be nice if we had a "Consumer Reports" that proof tested BP guns..........

Offline bubba

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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2006, 01:38:07 PM »
I would think it would be corporate suicide to say their guns would with stand a magnum load and they wont. Why dont we hear of tons of cva and traditions exploding cuz you know every green guy out there who has one is shooting magnum charges because the book says you can. Also if there were tons of barrels blowing up, it would shut down The companies in a minute with the law suits. The reason they call a longer barrel a magnum barrel  is it gives you more length to burn the powder and actually get a magnum charge. Any 26 inch barrel if you shoot 150 grains it does not all burn and some comes out the barrel unburned, so you are not getting a mag charge, you just think you are.  I owned a cva optima for a long time and had great luck shooting it with 130 grains of loose 777 and a 250 grain t/c shock wave. I had no problems at all with stress or accuracy. The only reason I quit using it was I got an encore for Christmas and quite frankly it is more accurate.
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Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2006, 01:55:23 PM »
Here is a couple of incidents

http://www.realtree.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=852762&an=0&page=0#852762

letter to Randy Wakeman

Erik Zenger wrote:
Randy,

I stumbled across your article entitled "Dangerous Muzzleloaders" while cruising the web today. I wanted to thank you for what you wrote and to tell you that you are 100% correct in what you wrote.

I was at a shooting range with my brother on November 4, 2001 when the CVA inline muzzleloader I was shooting exploded shooting the bolt mechanism and the spring back into the right side of my face. I have had 9 reconstructive surgeries since that time and continue to suffer from severe headaches and also paralysis of my major facial muscles.

I later learned that I was about the 45th person to have this happen to me. Again, that was in 2001 and I know that others have had the same thing happen since. I tried to get the national new agencies to pick this story up to make people aware of the danger, but I was unsuccessful.

I would like to ask you if there is anything that you can do to make people aware of the danger of shooting CVA guns. I would offer any information or support to facilitate this.

Please contact me if there is anything that we can do.

Thanks again,

Erik Zenger


More reading here;

http://modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1428&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline bubba

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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2006, 02:00:25 PM »
ok there are a couple incidents. How do we know that the person was within recommended load ranges? Why is the company still in business and selling the barrels if they are so dangerous? Why would any company recommend a load they know is dangerous and possibly life threatening. It just makes no sense to me
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

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Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2006, 02:01:46 PM »
Of all of the defective products, and product failures that take place out there each year how many show up in the news?
Did you hear or see any news blurb about the Tika rifle failures we all heard about on message boards like these?

How many Knight or Savage or T/C ML failures have you even heard about?

Most product liability cases are settled for damages out of court for big bucks and the people involved agree not to discuss the problems with those products.

Frankly I would be suprised to hear anything at all about these type of problems if it was not for the internet and word of mouth. Most gun magazines are in bed with the gun companies. How many negative reviews have you read in print lately?
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline bubba

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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2006, 02:09:00 PM »
every article I read had nothing to do with barrel blow up but with the bolt and nipple malfunctioning. There could possibly be a problem there, but I still have not seen a problem with a barrel. If there was enough pressure to blow out a bolt or nipple one would think that the barrel would be subjected to some extra pressure in it. And from what I am reading the barrels stood up.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.