Last one I will ever Buy

[hylander]

I just did some loading for my Handi.
55 V-Max:
Siammi OCL is 2.250
To seat mine to the lands is 2.443
Thats is .193 differance  
No can do as the Bullet needs to be in the case .224 Minimum, the Diameter of the Bullet. I chose to go with an OCL of 2.300
That leaves me .113 of the Lands and .050 over Siammi, not Ideal for accuracy but we shall see.
Talk about a long throat, They did not fix any of the Problems I asked them to  :angry:
Apparently they have some loose Idea's about what is within Specs.
I guess they figure .193 off the lands is close enough  <_<
And they did not fix receiver to barrel fit.
Just thought I would pass on the Info.

P.S.
Last Handi I buy regardless of how this one shoot's unless it is darn near Free or I can Inspect it and take Measurements.
To Bad cause I really Like this Little Gun.
Range Report to Follow

[Mac11700]

Call Gordon and explain as nice as you can what you have found. Tell him you had the barrel back in because of the loose lock up on it..and the forearm was replaced..not the barrel..A lot of Handi's have long throats..they always have..and it isn't always detrimental to accuracy..this I can say for a fact for my rifles..as can others here as well..When talking to him..ask him for a call tag so you won't have to pay for shipping..

Mac

[mitchell]

i wouldn't worry about the long throat a lot of handis (most) have them and still shoot good, i would be calling them over that barrel though, if you sent it back to be fixed then it need to be fixed when you get it back.

[hylander]

I will give them a call on monday.
Also there was no explanation of the work that was done or not done.
Just a sample Target they suppossably shot from the gun.
However my thinking is they locked the Barrel in a rest of some kind to fire the group and not in its own receiver.

[Mac11700]

You can ask them that Monday when you call...I haven't heard them doing this before..and Jon the gunsmith usually does a good job on them when they are returned with a fitting problem if he was the one who worked on it....They should issue a call tag on it going back for the second time..no reason for you having to pay the shipping on it again..

Mac

[Norseman112]

Sorry to hear what you are going through hylander, even though my .223 ultra has a long throat  I found when loaded to SAAMI standards is where she shoots best (at sub moa) . I to would not worry about the long throat.  Again good luck,

John

[bladerunner]

hylander,the barrel is still LOOSE? did you include a note explaining such?did you have to pay for shipping?

I have no idea if my barrel on the 243 superlight was loose before it was "fixed" by NEF,but it's loose NOW and shooting the same "patterns" it was shooting

sorry guys,but I see NO excuse for the barrel fitment AFTER it has been back to the factory for accuracy issues....that should be one of the FIRST things they check

I sent mine to them for the accuracy issues AND to have 2 more barrels added...and they are ALL loose :evil:
since the barrels should be "factory fitted" according to NEF,shouldn't they be paying more attention than to let them go out LOOSE? I'm not sure if there is a safety issue with shooting a loose barrel or not,but it would seem to be less safe than one that is properly fitted.....and no matter how ya look at it,it's not gonna be very accurate that way

the thing is,I'm quite vocal about what I like and dislike,and as of now,I'm being quite fair when I tell people about these little gunsBUT if this keeps up,alot of people can be REAL bad for NEF's future........I can see where,if you make a large production of cheap (moderatly priced,that is)guns,some corners are gonna be cut,BUT when the customer sends it back,it should be given a THOROUGH going over to make sure THAT customer is happy


Looks to me that NEF uses the CUSTOMER as quality control.they need to start listening to the "inspectors"

C/S should be the "back UP" NOT the "back BONE"

[Mac11700]

C/S should be the "back UP" NOT the "back BONE"

Very well said...:agree:

One of the main things I dislike about NEF..is if you don't know who to talk to..you may wind up with someone who normally doesn't work in the CS department..and therefore really doesn't know what they have in stock or not..nor can they give you a good answer to a question...Jennifer and John are the 2 main C/S reps there..if niether of them are available..I always ask for Gordon who is in charge of the department.

There really isn't a reason to have to send a barrel back for a loose lock up...espcially if you have already included a note to the gunsmith to fix that problem..if you didn't..someone else may have just fired it for accuracy...and if I'm not mistaken..I think it's 3-4" groups or under are within their specs..pretty large by anyones standards today..

hylander...you said in your original post on this you was going to try to make a temporary shim and see if it improved your groups..did you ever get a chance to try that before you sent it back?I'm just curious that's all..if it does make it shoot like it should with factory ammo..not reloads....you could tell Gordon that little fact and I would bet yours would be fitted properly this time or replaced with a new one..

Mac

[JPH45]

.193 is .006 over 3/16" adn is shy of 1/4" by a tad under 1/16".

In seeing the length of throat disscussed many times here what has never been addressed is that the throat is the life of the barrel. Typically, a 223 barrel will run about 7000 rounds give or take. A barrel long throated like this has half it's life removed before one even pulls a trigger. Why should someone pay good money for a barrel that is half worn out before it has ever been fired?

For the sake of argument let us say that a fella gets 5000 rounds before the throat is shot out. In a normally throated rifle, one can account for throat erosion by continued long seating, or simply extending the throat with a throating reamer. But this is not possible in a Handi, one is already at the limits of long seating. So rather than being able to extend the life of the barrel by a few thousand rounds, the user is forced to buy a new barrel that is already half shot out before the first shot is fired. Sounds like a bad catch 22 to me.

Not talking bad about Handis, just a truth about barrel life as related to throats. NEF continues to get away with this and other sloppy dimensioning because instead of their feet being held to the fire, their customers either make excuses for them, or unload the guns on others.

I dont talk to NEF about my 38-55 because they've no real reason to fix the gun. They have shown this over and again by failing to repair obvioulsy defected arms others have sent in with the catch all "it is in factory specs"

From here it seems that  NEF would rather lose customers than repair and improve their product. They've lost me, sounds like they've lost hylander. No telling how many others have been lost as a result of the problems reported here.

Strikes me that someone needs to call Gordon and Diana let them know that NEF is about to begin hemmoraging if they are not already. Bringing out new chamberings for their barrels is not enough if the guns continue to be hit and miss on the quality. Sooner or later people will begin to figure that NEF is a miss and try for a hit elsewhere. Since there seems to be no satisfaction from the factory addressing these quality issues, what choices are their customers left with?

[hylander]

hylander...you said in your original post on this you was going to try to make a temporary shim and see if it improved your groups..did you ever get a chance to try that before you sent it back?

Original Thread for those that don't know what I'm going through.
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=78928&highlight=

[dodd3]

the onley problem i had with my buff classic was when i first got it and closed the action there was a gap in between the standing breech and the barrel, but the gap went from a gap at the top to nothing at the bottom so i removed the forend and removed the barrel and notised there was a lot of weld dags where the lug is welded to the barrel had those removed and the barrel closed with no gap if i put a cigaret paper inbetween the barrel and the standing breech i can not pull the the paper out so my lock is very tight. wot i am saying if your guns have a gap in that area check the weld on the lug and make sure there are no lump's of weld stopping the barrel from closing down properly,which in turn mean's you dont engage the lock up properly. wich will affect accuracy just my 2 cents worth.
bernie  

[Mac11700]

Wow :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

All I can say is send some of those pics in with it this time...what a difference...I bet you caould taylor your load a little more and get it punching single holes...but  you shouldn't have to shim the durn thing....that is totally unacceptable..

Mac

[Busta]

I handled a Buffalo Classic last year that would not lock up at all once I broke it open. You would think that at least the BC would get a little extra attention at the factory before sending them on. :roll:  I have handled some very sloppy rifles over the last couple years. I handle all the ones I bought and if they don't pass my inspection, it don't come home with me. We need to reject any rifles that aren't up to snuff, maybe they will get the message loud and clear when they have to make them all right. :wink:

[hylander]

Wow :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

All I can say is send some of those pics in with it this time...what a difference...I bet you caould taylor your load a little more and get it punching single holes...but  you shouldn't have to shim the durn thing....that is totally unacceptable..

Mac

I sent all the pictures with a detailed list and desciption of the problems.
And a detail of the shims I made.
All I got was the same setup back with a new forearm and butt stock, and no explanation or anything.

[Duckdog]

I've had a few issues with the barrels, too, but they've fixed them for me. They were mostly ejector problems.  I do know one thing, they are not the most friendly lot, when you call them on the phone.  It almost seems like they relly don't want to talk to you. The times I've called, I get yes or no answers and maybe a bt more if I pry the info out of them.

I agree with the question of the barrel fitting.  Just for kicks, I tried swapping barrels between receivers and measured with a feeler gauge, and mine all locked up so tight that a .0015 gauge wont pull out.  Makes me wonder what they're charging $15.00 bucks to fit the new ones for.

I've never owned a Rossi, but if they have good customer service, I might give them a look.

[bja105]

I think its goofy that people here have to talk to the factory so much that they know the first names of the Customer Service department.  In my business, a company with this quality track record is known as a "former supplier."

[Mac11700]

I think its goofy that people here have to talk to the factory so much that they know the first names of the Customer Service department.  In my business, a company with this quality track record is known as a "former supplier."

I don't consider it goofy to know the names of the people I deal with ....no matter what type of buisness it may be...it's not all about calling to complain about something that isn't working correctly for me..I order a-lot of different parts as well..and over time you get to know some of the nice folks who work  at the different places.

Mac

[olbiffer]

what mac said x2. I have talked to customer service a few times as well. some calls with problems, some looking for info, but I always hung the phone up feeling I was treated fair and courteous.

[quickdtoo]

I've had the same experience with them, sometimes Jennifer seems a bit short, but I've been there, done that when dealing with customers, specially if the customer is upset or has problems to deal with. It takes a special kind of person to not take things personally when dealing with the public, not everyone can do it. A little courtesy to the Customer Service representative goes a long way towards making the experience a positive and productive one.  :wink:

Tim

[trotterlg]

My guess is that the people on this board make up a very high percentage of the calls to customer service.  Most people who buy handi's don't even know what a throat is, or if a rifle is loose or tight, they just buy one to go hunting one time and put it in under the bed for the next 15 years.  If all the people on the board stopped buying handi's then H&R would probably make more money because they could get rid of half of the customer service department.  Larry

[Fred M]

JP's write up is right on the money. Three and a halve years ago when I bought a 25-06 Ultra Handi I reported all my tests backed up with measurements of all the trouble I had with that rifle. In my post in which I explaned of all that, it was practically not commented on.

When I did some complaining on the board, I was ask if I ever had anything good to say about the Handi.
Some people did not even want to acknowledge the shoddy workmenship.

I have two Handis that have been reworked, rebored, rechambered, refitted to make them into a respectable accurate rifles. The amount of work to do this is totally above and not possible for most of the Handi users.

The first one I did without too much compunction, the second one I wanted a good shooting 223 which it did not become. Tried to sell it and couldn't. So I had not much choice but to rework it too.

Would I buy another Handi? No way, unless I get one for $50 bucks or less. I would like to have a 30-30AI Handi with a 1-15" twist ala 30 Aardvark style.

In all this time I had these rifles nothing has changed in quality from where I am looking. In Canada you can't even send one back to the factory. You get it in the neck twice. Double Whammy!

[scrounger]

It is unralistic to expect your 55gr VMax to touch the lands at 2.26" OAL in a factory rifle. They have no idea what bullet you are going to use and therefore have to chamber barrels so that they will handle bullets from 35 to 80 grains in weight. I've had quite a few Remington and Ruger rifles and on all of them it was necessary to seat bullets out to 2.35" to 2.40" to touch the lands. But that was not necessary for accuracy. Good factory ammo at 2.25" or a little less still shot under a minute. You want a barrel that is chambered to perfectly fit one bullet, don't expect to get it for $82! Such a custom barrel will cost you $400, and that's not counting the receiver and stock. These guns are GREAT for their price!

[quickdtoo]

I sent all the pictures with a detailed list and desciption of the problems.
And a detail of the shims I made.
All I got was the same setup back with a new forearm and butt stock, and no explanation or anything.

Not that this is acceptable, but it may be that the documenting photos and explanation got separated from your rifle by them between CS and the gunsmith, and the looseness was never addressed, just the accuracy by test firing and new stocks added. Hopefully Gordon will intervene and straighten the mess out......for everyone if he knows such things are happening since it's not the first time this has happened.

Tim

[Fred M]

Scrounger.
Tell me why you would want to throat a 1-12" twist 223 for a 80gr bullet. When only a 62gr bullet will stabilize in that twist. If the chamber was done right you should have no trouble to rach the lands with a 55gr bullet if the chamber was set up for a 62gr bullet.

Yes I would fully expected in that twist. In a 1-9" twist the throat could be a bit longer but not that long that a 55gr bullet wont reach the lands. Reamers don't last forever so to have one reamer for each twist would not be unreasonable to expect.

A crappy throat and chamber is not a good buy in my books. Specially when it costs no more to do a good chamber.and throat.

[scrounger]

I wouldn't, I shoot varmint weight bullets. But you can bet your --- that someone has tried it. The factory has to consider all possibilities, not just those that make sense... And then there's the lawyer allowance. Just as triggers are not set too light "for safety", a little extra space between the bullet and lands can lower the pressure a bit. All manufactures take these things into considerstion.

[bladerunner]

Duckdog wrote:

I do know one thing, they are not the most friendly lot, when you call them on the phone.

eh,most folks from up that way strike me as a bit short,rude or unfriendly......I've found that they don't mean it,it's just the way they come across.....C/S has always been helpful when I've called and courtesy on the customers part really warms them up....heck,ya gotta consider that most of their day is dealing with irrate customers...has a tendency to make ya just want to get to the point

Scrounger wrote:

These guns are GREAT for their price!

I disagree,these guns are "ok" for their price,they COULD be great IF Q/C would get on the ball.....a rifle that doesn't shoot reliably and accurately isn't worth $20 to me...much less $200......how about you?

the savage 200,from what i've read,is GREAT,for the money
[/quote]

[McLernon]

I have to pipe in on this. I REALLY like my .223 Handi rifle, truly I do, but it has been frustrating trying to get it to shoot. I still don't trust it enough to use as a groundhog gun at 100 yards: a coyote at 100 yards yes. It is just too hard to shoot accurately even when I use the 'right' ammo. I still haven't been able to beat the WWB with ANY reload recipe. And yes mine has a very long throat too. That said, I have one more trick up my sleeve. I've loaded some Winchester brass using Winchester primers and this time I did not clean out the primer pockets to full depth. I'm hoping this will help with light hammer strikes and avoid 'dropped shots and misfires.

Does anyone know if H&R tunes into this page? If they do, they must be impressed with such loyal folks. I think it's a shame that they have not addressed the accuracy issue!!!


McLernon

[ajshoots]

I have been fortunate that I haven't had a single problem with any of the 3 new NEF's I have bought! 1 Handi and 2 Ultras. I work on alot of guns and shoot alot of guns. With that being said, for $200 it is hard to beat a NEF! I have worked on and shot many rifles costing twice as much and more that weren't as accurate and had many QC problems as well! It isn't just NEF, Remington is terrible and costs 3-4 times more as well as many other manufacturers! But, for $200 I can deal with fixing a few problems as long as it is accurate. If I spend $400 or more, I wouldn't tolerate any problems. AND that is why my last 3 have been NEF and many more will say the same on the receiver!

[rifleman61]

I really have to say here, that I have four Ultras and a Handi, and a 12 ga. Topper Deluxe Classic.  I was raised in the school of competitive mili0tary match and sniper shooting and I will tell you bluntly that you cannot get any better a rifle than the H/R.  Yopu do not have to "lap" the barrel.  Our armorer's would have looked atr a person doing that and asked them if they wanted to shoot the "darned" thing or spend their time cleaning it.  You simply cannot hand "lap" a barrel given no access to a proper machine facility as well as you can by "shooting it in".  Each one of those rounds going down the 'tube" will lap the rifle machining far more consistently than you can do with a rod and "flitz" or anything else.  Aftyer a day at the range clean it thoroughly with a good bore solovent, anyone on the shelf dedicated to that use is good.  Polish the bore with a clean wipe  half a dozen passes and put it away.  Cleaning a rifle for four hours is an exercise in redundancy; if you must clean a weapon as simple as a Handi for that long then there is something wrong. I have heard all of the
statements about "Q/C' and find them to be specious at best.  I have called Gardner and found them to be courteous and helpful and have not had to wait in "muzac" hell while waiting on the phone line.
The.223 Ultra fluted right out of the box will shoot under a minute of angle at 100 yards with 63gr. semispitzers all day and H4895.  Use any brass you want it doesn't matter  Do not expect to shoot 75gr. VLDs you will be disappointed.   The .223 Ultra fluted is not a CIA paramilitary 600 yard sniper rifle; but, it is quite capable of dispatching a "yote" at 200 yards with no problem and we have plenty of them in New England and ours are the biggest in the country.
The.308 Ultra properly scoped will shoot a minute of angle right out of the box; I did it yesterday with common military issue M-60/.308 bandoleer ammunition.  Its barrel length is 22" which is standard on an M-14. Mine has a 3-9 ART IV on it and I will put it up against any Bell and Carlson stocked "prima dona" any day of the week.
The 25/06 Ultra is an antelope rifle and with a handload selected from IMR 4831 51grs. and a 120 Speer BoatTail it shoots under a minute of angle at 100 yards.  I'm going to Montana in June and I'm going to take that badboy with me for some antelope.
The barrels on all of these rifles are heavier and have a slower taper sihlouette than the barrels on many other rifles costing far more; they are very stable and do not flex much with heat.  The trigger work is the best that I have seen in a long time.
I have just purchased a 280 remington in the Handi line; if everything goes as I suspect and I have no reason not to expect otherwise I will turn it into a "long range rifle" and it can go into an armory that has a $3000 dollar single shot rifle [that I built while on the Navy shooting team]for for long range shooting right along side of it.  they can sit in there at night and talk to each other and get acquainted.


Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

[trotterlg]

rifleman61:  Glad you have had good luck with your rifles.  Some are not so lucky.  Are you realated to stickfigure?  Larry