Accuracy?

[Paul5388]

I just got through reading an older American Rifleman (AR) from Sept 2002.  On page 32 there's an article titled, "Great Expectations: Real-World Rifle Accuracy".  The center of the article has a quote from AR 1962.

Relative percision is well under 3 minutes of angle.  This is good performance from a lightweight hunting arm.

The rifle in question in the 1962 article was the then new M700 in 7mm Mag.  The original 1962 test of the M700 produced 1.99" groups at 100 yards from a machine rest.  The same gun produced an average of 2.78" groups at 100 yards from the bench.

The current article starts with a discussion over a $3000 switch barrel Blaser that shot 1 1/2" at 100 yards and defended as being reasonable accuracy.  Weatherby's quarantee of 1 1/2" or less groups at 100 yards  with Weatherby factory ammunition is also cited to show the degree of accuracy that should be acceptable.

40 years ago, the M700 cost $125 ( I made $3.05/hr 40 years ago, including shift differential) and the Handi rifle cost about $200 now.  So, the M700 was a week's pay, but the Handi is much less than a week's pay now.  Are we expecting too much from an inexpensive gun?  :roll:

[quickdtoo]

Good point, Paul, and well stated!! :agree: :agree: :agree:

Tim

[Paul5388]

Thanks for the comments and the quick fix!  

[Mac11700]

The rifle in question in the 1962 article was the then new M700 in 7mm Mag. The original 1962 test of the M700 produced 1.99" groups at 100 yards from a machine rest. The same gun produced an average of 2.78" groups at 100 yards from the bench.

With regard to our Handi's..having a 2-3" acceptable group for a inexpensive rifle should seem normal for most folks and the majority of them can do this and much better with the right loads as most of us already know...Do some expect this result everytime..I think some do...and when they don't get it..they look to put the blame on the rifle too easily...casting negative aspersion on it when it doesn't produce sub-moa groups with proven favorite loads...and some forget that only a couple of bolt gun manufacturers offer any type of written guarantee for their bolt guns which cost 2-3-4 times as much...I would guess if the Handi was manufactured to the same specs and tolerances as that of the Ruger #1..it would cost almost as much as it..or if it was made with higher grade wood or higher grade synthetic stocks..the cost could  be 2 or 3 times as much as what it is now,and many people couldn't afford one..

Good article Paul it makes one think about it...:agree:

Mac

[bladerunner]

I can see your point,Paul.

and if it were a 44 mag or a 357 mag or maybe even a 30-30 I would agree...BUT,whats the point of having,say,a 280 that won't hit better than a 9 inch circle under IDEAL conditions at 300 yards?IF that's all that should be expected,then there is no point to a long range cartridge,because,even though it (243,25-06,270,280,etc.) will have the ENERGY,it will not have the capability to put that energy where it will do it's intended job,which would ,of course, be the 8 inch(on a deer) circle know as "the vitals"
on the other hand,an inch and a half at 100 yds will be four and a half at 300 yds.this is well within the "kill zone"and therefore,acceptable
honestly,I'm not bashing handi's here,I just believe they could be sooooo much BETTER for just a LITTLE more time,and yes,money......and I'd like to own a GOOD one,I truly enjoy the lightness and the way they feel,but as I said on another thread  "a rifle that isn't reliable and accurate isn't worth $20,much less $200"    just my  :money:

[Paul5388]

bladerunner,

I only have two barrels that I bought new, .223 and .357 Mag.  The rest were bought off of this forum and I suppose the .243 is the only "high intensity" barrel I have.  Even so, I don't have any barrels that won't shoot 1 1/2" at 100 yards and I don't shoot as well as I did in my youth.  That is considering I use 2 SB2 frames, 2 SB1 frames and a H&R shotgun frame to accomplish that not so amazing feat of marksmanship.

While I would like a little better accuracy, what I have is certainly consistant with Weatherby's standard and I spent a lot less money to get that degree of accuracy.

It's true that I have worked on my guns some, but I haven't done any trigger work, like Quick has.  Mostly I have concentrated on getting the barrels to float, by either use of shims or relieving material out of the forearm.  The only other thing done was a change in reloading technique on stright walled cases.  I don't roll crimp anything and use only a taper crimp.

Are these shooting "out of the box" to this degree of accuracy?  No, but it has taken very little actual work and certainly nothing to compare to what most bolt guns take.

I made an offer to swap my .243 barrel for one of those non-shooting .25-06 barrels, but I'll extend that offer to anything based on the .30-06 case.  I'll even provide a target 1 1/2" or better at 100 yards and the load used to shoot the target with the barrel.

[stimpylu32]

I have always been happy with a 2 inch group at 100 yards out of my hunting rifles , i was very happy when i got my first 223 handi and it shoot less than 1 inch at 100 .

Now i have it down to 1/2 inch on a good day , my 270 will also shoot 1 inch or less .

I always though that if i could not hit a deer at 100 yards with a 2 inch rifle then i better get closer . i do know a lot of people feel that a rifle needs to put 3 rounds in the same hole but i have never had the need for this . if i get to that point i will spend the money to get a rifle that is designed to do it .

IMHO the H&R/NEF rifles are the best buy for what they were made for , the working mans hunting rifle .

[Norseman112]

My bolt guns are sub MOA and so are my handi rifles  :grin:  I did free float my handi rifles myself which was no big deal. While there QC may need some help. Customer service seems to always bend over backwards to make it right.  I have two friends who have always shot bolt guns just like I did and we still do. Well they  have just bought handi rifles. One has a .22 hornet and the other an ultra .223.  Both are very happy with the rifles, they shoot decent  and have not had any problems. I am not saying H&R is perfect and like I said before some things can improve, but its not all gloom and doom either. Overall I think they are a decent company and a good rifle for the money.  

John

[Sourdough]

I want to be able to hit a 4" clay target at 400 yards consistantly.  A 2" group at 100 yards will not do that.

[jbtazgrabber]

ok ill throw my 2 cents in.....i live in n.e. okla.,,the longest shot i ever had to take was 110 yds........the average is 40 yds...do i need min. of angle,,,,,,,,,no,,,,,,,,,,i shoot handgun cart.in my handys. the largest cal. i own is a 445,s.m it can shoot 200 yds if i need it ....but so does my huntsman which i perfer to carry 95 % of my deer hunting....right out of box..... i want to know when the last time someone took a 300 yd neck shot at a wall hanger??i wouldnt shoot a wall hanger in the neck and chance ruining the mount.....but then again i wouldn't be shooting a 200 $ gun at 300 yds expecting to hit it everytime.............but with a ruger # 1 with a 300 $ scope and some good ammo    .......yes i would......this goes to you get what you pay for.......always..... do i need a ruger#1......to kill deer where i live...nothe 168$ guns work just fine...jb

[Fred M]

Paul.
You made some good points but 3" groups at 100 is not for everybody.

Weatherby's quarantee of 1 1/2" or less groups at 100 yards with Weatherby factory ammunition is also cited to show the degree of accuracy that should be acceptable.

Yes I know about that guarantee. I bought a 300 Wby MV barreled action in 1962 and made my own stock.
If I thought for one minute that this barreled action would produce only 1-1/2" at 100 I would have never bought it.

At the time Wby rifles were made in Germany by Sauer and the barrels were one of the best. From the very start the rifle shot 5/8" groups and never looked back in 25years I used it.

A year later I bought a complete 257Wby rifle and it shot 1/2 " groups. Wby would have been out of busness if his rifles would stay at the 1-1/2" mark.

I am for one are not happy with rifles that shoot shot gun pattern. I saw a guy at the range today that just bought a used FN Browning in 375H&H.

After he got it on the paper using a 3x Leupold he shot a clover leave group with all three 300gr Silver tips touching. The partial box of ammo came with the rifle.

This is what I call rifle accuracy. Over the years I have see several 375 H&H production rifles that shot just as well. So whatever accuracy turns anybodies crank is ok by me but I would not use it as a yard stick or an excuse for poor performance.

Americans have always been proud of accurate rifles. Even the old hand made Kentucky rifle shot better than 3" at a hundred. They were bored and rifled by hand too.

With modern mashines there is no excuse to make poor barrels and chambers.