35 Whelen owners, load question

[handirifle]

Is there a safe load for the 35 Whelen that puts it in the 35 Rem range?  Thinking of a med bore (35 cal) but want to have a large range of loads.  I figure a 358 Win would get closer, but like the top end capability of the Whelen too.

Any loads you have used with a 200gr round nose, or similar?

[Sourdough]

My Nosler manual shows loads for the 180gr bullet in the .35 Whelen that are comperable to the same bullet in the .35 Rem.  You can use the minium loads for the .35 Whelen and I think they will be pretty light.

I personally have my own idea, but I can't recommend it to anyone.  I would like to get some feedback from others with their openions.

With my .454 Casull I use .45 Long Colt loads to tame it down, for my .44 Rem Mag I use .44 Special loads in .44 Mag brass to tame it.  In my .357 I use .38 Special loads.  With my 45-70 I normally use the Medium loads (For Lever Action) in my 45-70 Handi, to tame it down for the kids I use the Trap-Door loads.  So why can't you use .35 Remington Loads for the .35 Whelen.  It's the same bullet and the same diameter barrel.  In fact only the chamber, and brass should be differant on those two guns.  What do other people think?  What are your views?

[jim62]

First of all the case capacities are a lot different between the two.

Most powder are only safe in a certain range of volume in a case.Some powders(mostly ball types) are downright DANGEROUS when a load is reduced below a certain level.Be careful.

My advice is not to play armchair ballistician here.Take some time to look at actually powder manual data.The folks that make the powder know best.

Go to the Hodgdon poweder sight and look at their reduced load data for H4895. That powder is pretty flexible in terms of powder charges.I would still not expect to get down below top end .35 rem velocites with any given bullet.Hodgdon hasa whole list of "youth"  managed recoil type loads and most of them in the 30-06 case feature H4895.It looks like somewhere arounf 39-40g of H4895 is about the lowest you could go.It should push a 180 g bullet about 2,200 FPS.

I would also look at manuals that show cast bullet loads like Lyman.They should show powder charges for several 35 Whelen loads around 2,000 FPS.Subsituting a jacketed bullet for a cast one will reduce the velocites even a bit more, but pressures will still be safe.

[handirifle]

Jim
Yes I agree, which is why I was asking others.  I have limited manuals available to me.  Top end loads of the 35 Rem would be perfect, even if I had to go slightly higher.  My Hogdons manual shows 2400-2500 as the lowest for a 200gr and I wanted 2000-2200 if possible.

In my mind for a close range deer gun, a 200gr round nose gives about all I could ask for, large bullet dia, easy expanding, plenty of weight for penetration, and slow enough (at thos speeds) to not destroy meat.

I will look up the sources you mentioned.

Sourdough, yea that is the general idea, but I wanted to stick with known, published loads, cause I know some powders react violently when loaded too light.

[Fred M]

Many light loads can be made using Blue Dot in many calibers.

35Whelen.
25.0gr Blue Dot,  200 gr Horn.SP. vel.1991,  27174psi
H2o case volume to overfwo 70.2gr
End of combustion is before the base of the bullet leaves the bore. This is a Quick Load prediction.

Search Blue Dot Loads and or consult powder maker.

[handirifle]

Thanks Fred.

[Fred M]

Handi.

Cartridge          : .35 Whelen
Bullet             : .358, 200, HDY SP 3515
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder             : ? Alliant BLUE DOT ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   45    22.40   1861    1539   22373   3260    100.0    1.686
-18.0   46    22.96   1890    1586   23367   3326    100.0    1.654
-16.0   48    23.52   1918    1634   24384   3392    100.0    1.624
-14.0   49    24.08   1946    1682   25424   3457    100.0    1.595
-12.0   50    24.64   1974    1730   26488   3523    100.0    1.568
-10.0   51    25.20   2001    1778   27574   3588    100.0    1.541
-08.0   52    25.76   2027    1825   28684   3653    100.0    1.516
-06.0   53    26.32   2054    1873   29819   3718    100.0    1.492
-04.0   54    26.88   2080    1921   30977   3782    100.0    1.469
-02.0   55    27.44   2106    1969   32159   3846    100.0    1.446
+00.0   57    28.00   2131    2017   33367   3910    100.0    1.425
+02.0   58    28.56   2156    2065   34599   3974    100.0    1.404
+04.0   59    29.12   2181    2113   35856   4038    100.0    1.384
+06.0   60    29.68   2206    2161   37140   4101    100.0    1.364
+08.0   61    30.24   2230    2209   38449   4164    100.0    1.344
+10.0   62    30.80   2254    2257   39785   4226    100.0    1.324

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     57    28.00   2155    2063   36789   3858    100.0    1.381
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     57    28.00   2096    1951   29693   3984    100.0    1.483

[jim62]

Handi,

I did not mean to come off "preachy" in that post..Sorry if I did.. :wink:

At any rate, I looked up some 35 Whelen cast bullet loads in the 48th edtion of the Lyman loading manual, which I believe is the latest edition.
The two best powders in terms of velocity /range and pressure seem to be IMR-4198 and IMR -3031.

The load ranges with a 195 CAST bullet were-

IMR 4198- 33g @ 2,060FPS

IMR 3031-39g  @ 2094FPS

With a 180g jacketed slug,the velocities would be about the same .

Those were the lowest loads at less than 21,CUPS each.By increasing the charges 10 % you are still less than 35, 000CUPS and around 2,200 FPS with those powders..Any high than than and you get over your 2,200FPS goal.

One other thing.. IMR -3031 is also EXCELLENT for full bore loads in the Whelen.According to the Lyman manual it gives top velocites with nearly every bullet weight with safe pressures.I have used it to good effect in 45-70s over the years..I would sure give that powder a try in the Whelen first.It may be the only one you ever need. :wink:

[handirifle]

Fred, thanks, lots of numbers there to digest.  When I get home I'll study them a bit more (at work now).

Jim,
Not taken that way AT ALL.  One of the problems with written word, hard to avoid certain "projected" feelings.  I was simply saying I agreed with you.  I do ALWAYS appreciate warning like that though, I'll never take offense to it.  It could save someone life someday.

Thanks to you and Fred for the load data, will have to get some more manuals for sure.  I can see I am not getting the full story with one or two of them.

These 35 Rem equiv loads, or just about, seem to me, like they would be perfect 200yd or less deer (or black bear) loads, with little meat damage and mild recoil.  In the meantime this gives me valuable practice with the same rifle I can easily load up for elk if the opportunity arises.

[Fred M]

Handirifle.
As yo can see I increased the powder charge to 28.0gr

The figures you see are abitrary predictions that can happen with diferent powder lots burning rate change of 10%. So what these figures mean is the the pressure of a 28.0gr load can can go up or down  by 10% and with it the velocity.

This is a good point to remember when dealing with max loads.

The best thing about the program, once I have Chrono values of a load I can change the burning rate factors to coincide with the velocity. Velocities are then very close to that powder lot and velocities are automaticly correlated to the new pressure.