Ruptured Spanish Barrels

[Cimarron]

I have read a lot here about the danger of Spanish barrels for ML because of the 10,000 PSI proof mark.

I have read that some CVAs have failed and injured the shooter.

However, I have missed the information on WHAT failed.  I don't remember an account of barrel ruptures... if so I'd love to see that documented.

If the failures were a fault of the action (bolt, plunger, etc) has anyone done a study on what kind of failures generated the injuries.

If the load was too heavy (3 50/50 pyrodex pellets, etc) then at what point did the failure occur?

I appears to me that a lot of blame is being put of the 10,000 PSI and the "extruded" steel barrels... I'm just curious to see if that in fact can be documented?

Not pickin' an arguement, just searching for the facts!

[Busta]

I have seen pictures on the internet of blown Spanish barrels as well as a few domestic ones. I think the majority of blown barrels are operator error, but not in all cases. As far as the CVA's the old Apollo's in the mid 90's had more than their share of problems and were recalled before CVA went under. CVA is now owned by BPI.

Most of these cases are handled out of court and the victoms are usually bound by a monetary agreement to not talk about it. If you are looking for documentation, I think you will be dissapointed since the hush money has already been paid. As with any mechanical device, there will be failures from time to time and muzzleloaders are no exception.

Good luck with your poll.

[RCL]

Cimarron, sent you a pm

[srwshooter]

This is pretty much BS ,all of them will blow up if you over load them.
all brands have had blowups when people do stupid things.
CVA IS AS GOOD AS ANYTHING ON THE MARKET. WITH THE RIGHT LOAD THEY WILL OUT SHOOT MOST.

[sabotloader]

Cimarron

I blew the poll, I read the options - I really did but I read the last statement as "I have never personally seen a blown Spanish
Barrel - so I chose that one.  now that I re-read the poll I should have chose the first option....

Do you have the power to go in and change it... At this point I was the only one to vote that way..... and I have never seen a blown Spanish Barrel First Hand.  I have seen pictures that Randy has provided...

[Wolfhound]

I personally know someone who's handled blown CVA guns but he's bound by confidentiality about it. I have also seen the person who's blown up a gun post on the internet about it. So both 1 and 2 apply.

[Cimarron]

Wolfhound

Could you please clarify... was the action or the barrel blown.  My point is to explore the strength/weakness of the Spanish barrels... not necessarily the failures of the actions.  I think all of us would appreciate if (a) the 10,000 PSI barrel failed or (b) things like bolts, plungers, etc. failed... Thanks!

[sabotloader]

Cimarron,

There are not to many loads that you can shoot in a muzzleloader that stay under the 10,000 # mark.  Most any load you shoot is over this amount of pressure, usually double.

Like anything else in this world, there are different qualities to most anything built.  Just because one Spanish barrel failed NOT all Spanish barrels are bad, even if one barrel failed not all barrels from that manufacturer are bad.  GM and Ford would really be in trouble.

The proof mark you find on your CVA/Traditions barrel indicates that the House of Elbar has proofed the barrel to that standard.  That standard is also the minimum standard set to be able to export a barrel from Spain.  The Spanish proof house will proof any barrel to any pressure you want if you pay and increased price for each level of testing.  If you wanted a barrel series tested to 100,000 #'s they would attempt it but you will pay an additional price.  Of course that price will be passed on to the consumer, and I am not saying that is bad.  The company that manufactures the barrel must submit a barrel to the proof house every so many barrels to be proofed once it has been proofed the manufacturer can ship XXX number of barrels from that test and the stamp is applied to that run.

CVA, Traditions, and A&H all use Spanish barrels,  they feel they need level of barrel proofing to help be competitive for their pricing of the gun.  It is my understanding that A&H has since switched to a higher proofed barrel.  CVA and I am not sure about Traditions have stayed with the minimum.  Niether BPI (CVA) or Traditions actually build their guns, that is done in Spain - these two companies market the product in the US.  We, us consumers, HOPE that both of these companies have insisted on further pressure testing by the manufacture.  In todays lawsuit happy U.S. I am certain they have and further I would bet there is binding document in the contract that says the barrel will stand up to the loads published in both companies manuals.  If you exceed these loads the liabilty no longer becomes theirs.  It is also my belief that if these barrels are/were blowing up because of a manufacturing defect the law suits would have wiped these companies out by now.  Be sure they, probably both companies, but CVA for sure, have had law suits filed against them for rifle failures - but so far it does not seem anyone has proven it was the manufactures default.  I am sure that all of this debate has hurt their market share and that is another objective of some of these claims and suits - they are not American made.  And that opens a whole 'nother can of worms.

I for one thinks this debate has gone on long enough, but one man continues to drive it and he has convinced several others - some Spanish barrels are weaker than others - that is a fact, but some Itialian barrels are weaker than others, even some American barrels are weaker than others.

I truly believe this will go on forever....

[Wolfhound]

A few with barrel ruptures but most have their breechplugs blown out. The barrel threads just give way. There's one ongoing case now that could actually cause BPI to go under. It's a blown breechplug case.

[sabotloader]

Wolfhound,

I have heard about the breech plugs coming back also, two of the cases there was speculation the owner/operator(s) had installed the breech plug loose (not tightened them to avoid plug seizure).  What are you thoughts along that line.  Going back to Toby's failure in the Savage he surmized gas cutting had weakened the bp and barrel.  With a loose breech plug, I think that could also lead to failure of this type.  To me, in Toby'd case, I would have to think the high number high pressure rounds shot from that gun had more to do with the failure than anything.

[riddleofsteel]

To me, in Toby'd case, I would have to think the high number high pressure rounds shot from that gun had more to do with the failure than anything.
 
 

Intentional barrel obstruction leading to barrel rupture seems just as likely to me.

[sabotloader]

riddleofsteel,

Intentional barrel obstruction leading to barrel rupture seems just as likely to me.

Are you really indicating that a man would purposely obstruct a barrel them put in his shoulder look through the scope and pull the trigger?  No matter what he might have been trying to prove would he on purpose try to maim himself for life or maybe even kill himself?  Doesn't make a lot of sense, but it is 2006...
[/quote]

[slave]

I am with Sabotloader on this. I an a bit un-easy in the gut just thinking of someone that would try any thing like that. I know the story but that woub be a bit extreeem !!!!!!!!

[riddleofsteel]

Ever hear of a string on the trigger? P.O. Ackley used to tie Arasaka rifles to tires and set off intentional over loads to try and determine at what point they would fail. He recorded having to open the bolt with a mallet.

Check this pic;
http://yerfrockethellhound.com/blownrifle.JPG

what are the two copper colored smuges in the barrel?

Do you get these using sabots?

two oversized hollowpoints down the barrel backwards over a massive charge of fast powder should do the job. notice the distance of the smuges from the breech plug.

if the failure is due to faulty breechplug design resulting in gas cutting and eventual barrel failure. Why does he not give us a clear pictue of the breechplug face and shoulder area. That rifle was examined by Savage engineers and probable barrel obstruction over fast burning powder, either alone or in duplex was thier conclusion.

[riddleofsteel]

Ever hear of a string on the trigger? P.O. Ackley used to tie Arasaka rifles to tires and set off intentional over loads to try and determine at what point they would fail. He recorded having to open the bolt with a mallet.

Check this pic;
http://yerfrockethellhound.com/blownrifle.JPG

what are the two copper colored smuges in the barrel?

Do you get these using sabots?

two oversized hollowpoints down the barrel backwards over a massive charge of fast powder should do the job. notice the distance of the smuges from the breech plug. remember that this system has been tested to 125,000 psi with not so much as a breechplug leak much less a blown barrel. Double projectiles tested to 125,000 psi resulted in a ringed barrel but no failure.

HUMMMMM....

if the failure is due to faulty breechplug design resulting in gas cutting and eventual barrel failure. Why does he not give us a clear pictue of the breechplug face and shoulder area. That rifle was examined by Savage engineers and probable barrel obstruction over fast burning powder, either alone or in duplex was thier conclusion.

[sabotloader]

riddleofsteel,

I have seen that picture several times, I can not come to the same conclusion as you.  I also saw a picture of the side of his face and his hand.  Yes, I know you can fake injuries also.

But like I said it is 2006 anything is possible - but I am still going to believe this whole black ops thing is science fiction.

[riddleofsteel]

can you link to the pics of his injuries?

[riddleofsteel]

Appearently he was not reporting injuries in this press release;

HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING Press Release
August 24, 2004

SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING SAFETY WARNING
HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING host Toby Bridges has been
the biggest proponent of the "smokeless powder" Savage muzzleloader ever since the company introduced the system back in 2000. And to date, he
has logged more than 35,000 rounds through the Savage Model 10ML II.
However, a catastrophic failure while test firing the rifle earlier this year nearly cost him his life.

The tests being conducted back in mid March were to determine the failure point of modern sabots when shooting powders recommended in the Savage Model 10ML II owner's manual. Plus he was
testing the longevity of an internal part of the ignition system for Savage Arms.
After running a series of shots with 48-grain charges of Accurate Arms 5744, with no excessive pressure signs with the primers or recovered sabots, he moved up to 49 grains of the same powder. And when the trigger was pulled, the rifle literally came apart in front of his eyes. The rear 9 inches of barrel split in several areas, with a 6-inch section of steel disappearing downrange, beyond the 100-yard berm. The 3-9x40 scope was ripped from the
bases, and broken in two. The front objective and lens was blown 25 yards forward of the shooting bench, while the rear 3/4ths of the scope passed
within inches of the shooter's head and landed in the parking lot 75 yards away. The laminated wood stock was reduced to a pile of splinters.

Fortunately, Bridges was not hit by any of the flying debris
and was not injured physically. However, he has this to say about the incident, "Having a pipe bomb literally explode right in your face has an impact on you, whether you're hit by flying metal and wood or not. On
the way home from the range that day, I became so shaken when thinking back on the incident that I had to pull off the highway twice to regain my
composure. And even though it's been four months since the rifle
failed,I still have great difficulty sleeping at night."

[sabotloader]

riddleofsteel,

Right now I can not, it was a long time ago right after the accident.  I am thinking it was a series of pics including the one you have linked to.  It may have been on his own site - which would or might lower the credibility in your eyes but there were several written statements with the pics.

I know he was complaining about the new Savage breech plug, I can not remember the exact complaint but part of it was that un-burnt powder could be driven back in the barrel against the leading edges of the protuding non-threaded portion of the breech plug.  This claim was verified by other shooters claiming of a simular experiance - not the blow up but the packing of powder and the difficulty removing the plug wiith this compaction.

I gotta tell you I have never seen the Savage report, but they are no different than CVA and or any other company they have to protect the product as much as possible.  The main reason I did not follow up is that I have not been interested in a Savage or smokeless shooting, well at least smokeless powder in a ML anyway...

[riddleofsteel]

one Savage reply to letter of inquiry

STATEMENT CONCERNING RECENT CONTROVERSY REGARDING THE SAVAGE
10MLII AND MR. TOBY BRIDGES
As is often the case in life, there are two sides to every story and things are rarely what they seem,
especially when one party is angry and has lost a substantial source of income through his own
actions.
Fact:
Since the introduction of the 10ML smokeless technology, Savage Arms has used the contract
services of Toby Bridges to test bullets, powders, sabots and primers on their behalf. The intent was to
have Toby run concurrent tests with the factory and compare engineering notes. Savage also wanted
to insure that new (evolving) technologies received a systematic and documented analysis so Savage
could respond to customers and continue to gain more knowledge on the subject.
Fact:
Having sold thousands of 10ML rifles over the last 4 years, Savage is not aware of ONE catastrophic
barrel failure (other than Toby’s), not one.
Fact:
Toby is both a very competent shooter and a knowledgeable technician. He is also a pioneer, which by
nature, tends to push the boundaries of trial and error in order to arrive at a conclusion and determine
the limits of various components, including the firearm steel.
Fact:
Savage knows that Toby ran more than 7,500 rounds through the rifle in question, according to his
own admission and Savage knows he was experimenting with various sub bases placed above the
powder and before the sabot, in an attempt to contain more pressure so it would not blow past the
commercial sabot.
Toby also experimented with layering powders in one load, which Savage considered dangerous and
found it necessary to advise him to cease that practice. Savage considers that particular experiment to
be unsafe and not in the best interests of the consumer.
Fact:
Savage had NEVER heard about a weak breech plug design, or any other safety related issue before
Toby issued his statement--this observation came out of the blue and surprised the heck out of
Savage.
Fact:
Toby lost his contract with the smokeless muzzleloader inventor (Henry Ball) for reasons that are not
Savage’s business.
Fact:
After losing his employment with Henry, Toby became more aggressive about Savage providing him
with greater involvement in the marketing and promotion of the 10ML, to help make up for the income
loss. At no time did Toby suggest the 10ML materials, engineering, design or assembly was in any
way dangerous or suspect.
Fact:
Toby’s agreement with Savage was terminated because he was unable to follow proper business
protocol, was argumentative and on occasion, darn right insulting to management and accounts.
While Savage appreciated his skills, they could not tolerate his unsafe test practices, lack of diplomacy
and intolerance for input from others.
Fact:
Toby did not advise Savage he considered the barrel/breech plug manufacturing design to be weak,
nor did he suggest that when the barrel separated, that it was anything other than progressive stress
over thousands of rounds, some that pushed the pressure envelope and did untold successive
damage.
Fact:
There is no design problem with the breech plug. Savage’s extensive testing has confirmed the
integrity of the breech plug design.
Savage Arms regrets Toby has taken this direction and has chosen to discredit both Henry Ball and
Savage, after being such an avid supporter of the smokeless technology for so long. Savage is
surprised and disappointed that Toby has turned his frustration on the very technology he helped
promote and has not been able to acknowledge his own business and personal failings.
Savage would never compromise their integrity, or offer a product they felt was in any way dangerous
when used as intended and recommended by the user manual. Savage has been in business for 109
years, and has earned a reputation for making safe and affordable firearms.
Do not use smokeless powder in any other muzzleloading firearm unless expressly recommended to
do so by the manufacturer.

[riddleofsteel]

Suffice to say I sat across from Henry Ball, the designer and patent holder for the 10ML design and covered this subject with him. He has hard copies of Toby's demands for money and his promise to black ball the 10ML on line. He has made good on that threat.

This not Black Ops is is black ball and attempted black mail of Henry Ball and of Savage Arms.

Not to beat a dead horse so this will be my last post on this here.

Let me close with a direct quote from Toby Bridges, who published this on his website on August 25, 2004, after six years of his extensive study of the Savage 10ML muzzleloader:



"First, let's take care of your safety concern. Let me ask you, how long do you think a long established company such as Savage Arms would remain in business in today's lawsuit happy society if they did knowingly manufacture and market a dangerous muzzleloader design?





The Savage smokeless muzzleloader has now been on the market for five years...and rest assured that there have not been any injuries due to catastrophic failures of the Model 10ML II. This rifle is no more dangerous, or prone to being blown up, with the recommended smokeless powder loads than any other muzzleloading rifle on the market loaded with the recommended loads of the rifle manufacturer. Savage Arms has done an outstanding job of engineering this rifle to safely handle the pressures of loads built with medium burn rate powders such as Accurate Arms 5744, IMR4227 or VihtaVuori N110 (or a half-dozen other similar burn rate powders).





Not only has Savage tested this rifle to insure that the receiver, breech plug, bolt and barrel will stand up to thousands and thousands of rounds shooting their recognized "maximum loads" of these powders, they also severely abused several test rifles with multiple powder charges and multiple saboted bullets to push pressures well over 100,000 p.s.i. That's about 2 1/2 to 3 times the working pressures produced by the recommended loads for the Model 10ML II."



-- Toby Bridges, HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING, 8/25/2004.

[Wolfhound]

Wolfhound,

I have heard about the breech plugs coming back also, two of the cases there was speculation the owner/operator(s) had installed the breech plug loose (not tightened them to avoid plug seizure).  What are you thoughts along that line.  Going back to Toby's failure in the Savage he surmized gas cutting had weakened the bp and barrel.  With a loose breech plug, I think that could also lead to failure of this type.  To me, in Toby'd case, I would have to think the high number high pressure rounds shot from that gun had more to do with the failure than anything.

I imagine it's possible. I know of a case where that happened with a Black Diamond. Only a couple threads were holding it in and they didn't hold. On certain models it's possible, but I know of at least one incident with a CVA Kodiak and there's no way the breechplug can not be in there when firing. How would you close the action otherwise?

As to Toby's case, I'm with riddleofsteel on that. I've heard his case was a barrel obstruction. Supposedly the bubble shaped blow is indicative of that. This is just what I've heard from folks who've had similar problems before so it's not concrete evidence one way or another.

[slave]

riddleofsteel,

You make a good point and you could be 100% spot on. I know the factors involved on both sides. It is about money and quite a bit of it as well.

I was not there and do not know what happened. My father always preached trust and that I should take a man on his hand shake. But once trust is broken you never get it back. One day it may all come out. When or if it dose someone will lose face. I just do not like to think someone would go to these extreems to damage another. We all know some do and you may right in this case.

 

 


Slave

[elkstalkr]

What scares the hell out of me is that CVA will not tell what the pressure rating on thier barells are when EVERYBODY else will!!!!  Something is awfully fishy there.  

I don't trust corporations, I want it in print and they WILL NOT give it to me.

So blown barrels are a mute point to me until they can make me confident they themselves know what their barrels are rated for.

[Keith Lewis]

What scares the hell out of me is that CVA will not tell what the pressure rating on thier barells are when EVERYBODY else will!!!!  Something is awfully fishy there.  

I don't trust corporations, I want it in print and they WILL NOT give it to me.

So blown barrels are a mute point to me until they can make me confident they themselves know what their barrels are rated for.

I don't thing any of the companies will tell you what their upper limit on barrel pressure is. They really do not want that information out there as some crazy person will try to duplicate the condition. I know my Omega does not have a pressure limit stamp on it anywhere that I can find. I do however believe that T/C tests and I do not know if CVA and Traditions do since it it difficult to fine out any real information about those two companies. I know that T/C is a real company.

[xHogHunter]

Let’s see the blown Spanish barrels or breech plugs! I am getting tired of reading about it on every forum I've been to. The same people keep on and on and on with no names and/or pics.  I have only seen posts on the blown Savages not any of the BPI products.  Before any of you company shills start on me I have now or have owned  several Savages, Remingtons, CVAs, Rugers, Winchesters, Marlins  and I am certainly a Tony Knight fan.  Please if you have proof post them or find a believable conspiracy theory to rant on about so I can do some learning here and else where.
Thank you

[elkstalkr]

http://modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1473&start=0

There is a picture of a blown CVA on this thread.

[Wolfhound]

http://members.aol.com/randymagic/cva.jpg

[xHogHunter]

http://hpmuzzleloading.com/WorkPage.html

[Wolfhound]

http://hpmuzzleloading.com/WorkPage.html

Bore obstruction.