Poll

Do you personnally know of a Spanish barrel failure?

I've heard about them on the internet
31 (91.2%)
I know someone who knows someone who does
1 (2.9%)
I have actually seen a ruptured Spanish barrel
2 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: February 03, 2006, 11:46:46 AM

Author Topic: Ruptured Spanish Barrels  (Read 5439 times)

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Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2006, 01:25:33 PM »
Interesting... we have established that under the right conditions... a smokeless/bp barrell can rupture... and guess what... a Spanish barrell can rupture.  I am curious how a T/C would handle an obstruction in the barrell...

Out of ALL the numerous cases of CVA barrells exploding and producing mayhem... we have ONLY one?  The Savage case is a "non-player" since obviously the guy was trying really hard to blow the gun up... wonder how many ML ever fire multiple thousands of rounds of ANYTHING.

Now... where are the Traditions barrells... and the other "branded/"should be outlawed" barrells?  

Again... it appears that the "culprit" MUST be bolt action rifles... since BOTH the Savage and the CVA were bolt actions.

Therefore... if you are hunting with a bolt action rifle (and since the Savage was shooting smokeless, include your bolt action center-fires) then you should be afraid to take those weapons into the woods.

Yes sir!  That sounds like good sense to me!?
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke

Offline Lane

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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2006, 04:26:39 PM »

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2006, 06:05:39 PM »
Cimarron

I am with you on this . :lol:  There seems to be way to much hype and very little evidence that  these guns are Dangerous. I have 2 CVAs and One Tradition and TC. My Tradition out shoots the Omega TC hands down.  :shock:   I have no intention of getting rid of any of my guns and If I ever deemed them  Dangerous :evil:  how could  in clear conscious sell one to someone else?

                                        Take Care- Rob

Offline Lane

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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2006, 06:37:01 PM »
Quote
Sadly, quite sadly, accuracy and safety are two totally different topics.

Once a breech plug smashes into your skull, fracturing it in several places, holes in paper seem to take on an extemely high level of unimportance.
_________________
Randy

Savage Muzzleloading



So don't sell them, retire them.

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2006, 06:56:57 PM »
Am I the only one who finds an irony here?

Randy "The Savage" Man, dispariages the cheaper competition, and because he is of such great concern for the welfare of the ML public, he is selling "Savage" ML.  Some how that certainly seems like a bit of conflict of interest.  With every repetition of these claims, which take on a life of their own, he builds interest in "good" guns, like Savage or Knight (both of which he sells!

And... "Toby" (the Savage buster) agrees with everything, EXCEPT that Savage dosen't build that great a probuct either...

Lane, have you seen ruptured barrells?  Have you actually talked to someone who has and can describe what happened... excluding reading the Randy rantings in multiple sources on the internet.

I'd love to discover facts and truth, not recount rumors and gossip.  There MUST be pictures of more than ONE Spanish barrell that burst?
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke

Offline Wolfhound

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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 02:19:29 AM »
Quote from: Cimarron
Am I the only one who finds an irony here?

Randy "The Savage" Man, dispariages the cheaper competition, and because he is of such great concern for the welfare of the ML public, he is selling "Savage" ML.  Some how that certainly seems like a bit of conflict of interest.  With every repetition of these claims, which take on a life of their own, he builds interest in "good" guns, like Savage or Knight (both of which he sells!

And... "Toby" (the Savage buster) agrees with everything, EXCEPT that Savage dosen't build that great a probuct either...

Lane, have you seen ruptured barrells?  Have you actually talked to someone who has and can describe what happened... excluding reading the Randy rantings in multiple sources on the internet.

I'd love to discover facts and truth, not recount rumors and gossip.  There MUST be pictures of more than ONE Spanish barrell that burst?


This topic is over 2 years old. Before Randy ever picked up a Savage he was talking about this. Your claims are unfounded. He's NEVER said that ALL CVA's and such are unsafe. What he's said is that they are not proofed sufficently and that there ARE guns blowing. Back when he asked the question originally there weren't any  blown guns that he knew about. Heck CVA and Traditions freaked when he asked them. Have you noticed they haven't sued him? Ever wonder why? If they sue him over this they risk the evidence becoming public knowledge. They lose either way. They're not doing anything and hoping it goes away.

Offline Wolfhound

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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2006, 02:23:30 AM »
Quote from: Cimarron
Am I the only one who finds an irony here?

Randy "The Savage" Man, dispariages the cheaper competition, and because he is of such great concern for the welfare of the ML public, he is selling "Savage" ML.  Some how that certainly seems like a bit of conflict of interest.  With every repetition of these claims, which take on a life of their own, he builds interest in "good" guns, like Savage or Knight (both of which he sells!

And... "Toby" (the Savage buster) agrees with everything, EXCEPT that Savage dosen't build that great a probuct either...

Lane, have you seen ruptured barrells?  Have you actually talked to someone who has and can describe what happened... excluding reading the Randy rantings in multiple sources on the internet.

I'd love to discover facts and truth, not recount rumors and gossip.  There MUST be pictures of more than ONE Spanish barrell that burst?


This topic is over 2 years old. Before Randy ever picked up a Savage he was talking about this. Your claims are unfounded. He's NEVER said that ALL CVA's and such are unsafe. What he's said is that they are not proofed sufficently and that there ARE guns blowing. Back when he asked the question originally there weren't any  blown guns that he knew about. Heck CVA and Traditions freaked when he asked them. Have you noticed they haven't sued him? Ever wonder why? If they sue him over this they risk the evidence becoming public knowledge. They lose either way. They're not doing anything and hoping it goes away.

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2006, 05:22:06 AM »
The quote above that Lane is showing is  one Randy posted to me . I said  that I liked the way my Traditions shoots on his dangerous Muzzle-loader thread .    I Came to this site to get away from Randy's anti CVA and Tradition agenda . I know what Randy said about dagerous ML'S  I don't believe he proved a thing.
                                                                   Rob.

Offline Meatball

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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2006, 04:50:26 AM »
I personaly have not seen a blown muzzle loader only pictures. However as Busta stated earlier CVA did have a problem with the Apollos in the 90's. I had one at the time and recieved a card in the mail telling me that there was a risk of barrel rupture and asking me to call a phone number about it. When I called I was asked quite a few questions about the gun, charge I was using, etc. I can't remember them all now. I was also asked to confirm my name and home address so that a new barrel could be sent. Approx. 2 weeks later I recieved a new barrel with instructions on how to replace the old one and return it to the factory. I did this and had no problems what so ever with the gun. Nor did I have any problems with the previous barrel either. I was able to maintain reasonable accuracy with both barrels shooting approx. 3.5 inch groups at 60 yards with open sights and a 240 grain XTP with a TC brealaway sabot over 80 grains of loose Pyrodex. I continued to hunt with the gun for a couple more years untill I bought a newer CVA Apollo Eclipse. I continued to use this gun right up through this last season. I have just recieved my new NEF sidekick this week and am going to start using that. I will continue to keep the CVA as a backup because they have provided me with 10+ years of trouble free service. As far as Traditions and any other Spanish made barrels of muzzleloaders I can't comment because I don't have any expierience with them. Not trying to start a fight just add my expierence and 2 cents.

Offline Cimarron

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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2006, 10:49:09 AM »
It is interesting that aside from one CVA and one Savage, I've not seen any pictures of ruptured barrells.  The whole discussion over the "proof" marks is in my opinion a "straw man."  When someone uses the term "dangerous" muzzle loaders... the presumption is that they in fact are dangerous... not potentially "if" certain circustances apply.

Every gun is by virtue of it's very nature "dangerous" unless handled safely... and that means monitoring power... and in a ML... seating the bullet on top of the load.  A bullet only partially seated is an invitation to disaster in any gun.

I began this thread as a search for facts... so far, no one has come forth to challenge the safety of the Spanish barrells with more than two pictures and obscure data... and a lot of "hear all about it on the internet" stuff.

Saying it's so doesn't make it so.  In essence, all Spanish barrells have been put on trial on the internet and they have been convicted without proof.  In criminal trials, the defendant has the "presumption of innocence."  Here, the only "crime" is an obscure "proof" mark.  If the Spanish barrels were the only ones NOT to mark their barrels with maximum proofs, then perhaps we should get nervous.  But show me a T/C, Knight, NEF (or any other) that so marks their barrels.

Soooo... let's just put the "proof" issue to bed (or bury it) and bring on the evidence that we can all evaluate and then judge.

Hmmmm... thought so!
Tom
Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke

Offline sabotloader

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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2006, 05:16:45 PM »
Cimarron,

My 2 cents...

There really are some underlieing issues in this whole saga.  It started as a "one man crusade" right here in this forum.  The author is really a "pro" buy American person (and I am too when I can afford it on a retirement salary).  He is really trying to protect the American manufactures as more and more muzzleloaders are being built off-shore.  And the reality of this is that these manufactures are able to under-sale American made guns, and more importantly cause the American manufactures to lower their quality to be price competitive with foreign imports.

His efforts to get one company to tell him how or if they proof tested their rifles to a greater proof than the one stamped on the product.  The company has never complied with his request and this began the crusade.  This person never represented an office of any authority to make the request, it was an independent American asking for the information from a private company.  Over the years he has been able to convince several followers to join into the crusade.  He is not mis-leading them he is presenting what he believes is the truth.  He has complied information over the years that help him justify the whole effort, and upon request I am sure that he will provide you with the information.

It is unforunate that the orginal CVA company which was contracting for ML guns from Spain, got bit by a production method that allowed a run Apollo barrels to make it to the US and the US market.  From all the information I can find it was not a defect in the barrel that caused the problem, the barrel did not blow up, but it was problem with the mating of the breech plug to the the barrel, coincidently Green Mountain Barrel Co. had a simular incident not to long ago, put out the recall and continued in business, for CVA it was another story.  Another holding company was formed and titled BPI, they continued the recall and picked up the CVA contracts and re-offered guns to Americans.

It really is unfortunate that the average middle class American are disappearing, but statistically it is happening.  The majority middle class people in America continue to look for the best buy,not nessarily the best product,  because they are unable to maintain the needs of survival, plus be able to purchase the extras on the wages that they are receiving.  Middle class jobs are moving and will continue to move from the US to foreign countries while upper class professional jobs continue to rise in the US to those people that can afford the cost of education.  Statistics indicate this trend will continue for some time.  As I have said before all of this leads to the success of the Wal-Marts and the loss of the mom and pop stores.

It is my personal belief that SOME Spanish barrels are lesser quality than most American barrels - but I do not condem them to being, in general, dangerous.

Most accidents, whether it be Spanish, Itialian, Russian, English or American can traced to owner operator error.

And I like you am very tired of the whole thing.  I really wish he would prove his case in a court of law and give up with the court of public opinion.  But without quality physical evidence you can not get in to a real legal court so the next best thing which Americans can really do well run a trial in the public court and let people feed on rumors and near facts....

Sorry for the length....
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2006, 05:23:30 PM »
Cimarron/ Sabotloader

  Thanks for your posts. :grin:
I have read every thing I could in the last few months on this whole issue of so called dangerous muzzleloaders :wink:  and I keep seeing the same Photo (1) and the same info by the same person over and over.   :evil:


                                                     Thanks Again-
                                                                       Rob  :D

Offline Wolfhound

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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2006, 02:52:05 AM »
Quote from: sabotloader

And I like you am very tired of the whole thing.  I really wish he would prove his case in a court of law and give up with the court of public opinion.  But without quality physical evidence you can not get in to a real legal court so the next best thing which Americans can really do well run a trial in the public court and let people feed on rumors and near facts....


I too wish that things would come out. And there are a few that have gotten out. There was one guy who blew his Winchester ML on one forum, wasn't hurt, and the company gave him a new one. He traded it in for an American made gun. I'm thinking that one was talked about on Monster Muleys. This one's still there somewhere. The names something like "Winchester X-150 takes a dump".

There was another posted about on the PAhunting forums a year or so ago. Fellow had a CVA Eclipse and the breechplug blew out of it. Broke his cheekbone I think. All he wanted was a new rifle but they ignored him and he contacted a law firm. Got two or three hundred thousand out of it. That one I wish I'd saved an image of the post since PAhunting forum trims their posts after a certain time period. This one was called "Blew up my gun and broke my face". It's not there anymore though.

Fact is there are cases out there. Most of em you'll never hear about. I'd imagine most of them don't result in injuries. I wish that was the case all the time.

Offline sabotloader

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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2006, 05:21:00 AM »
Patrick,

I am not saying these things have not happened, because I believe they have but not just to CVA's, the question is WHY are they happening?  Everytime anything fails it is the manufactures fault in a lot of our eyes, but usually it isn't.  If the evidence was so compelling, and I hesitate using Randy's name, he would not need a single owner to press his claim in court.  All he would need is the physical evidence, he expetise, and a lawyer, not the curcumstantial retoric that he continues to use.  We, you and I, and a lot of other people are doing the same thing with the Savage incident, except the Savage is made here in the US so it must be the scoundrell that pulled the trigger fault.  Toby had and axe to grind before the incident, he did not like the new breech plug, he much preferred Ball's original one, and he tried to get Savage to recognize what he thought was a problem MAYBE even a safety problem.  Since they did not and the gun blew up it was Toby's fault according to the company and some of the general public.

Again I agree that problems have occured, and there are one heck of a lot of CVA's on the market, and they MAY not be built to the most rugged standards in the world but if the owner/operator stays with in the the manual and doesn't make a severe mistake you will get a lot of years service from them.  There are some really old CVA's still out there and working fine.

I think one of Randy's last posts on your wed site under the "muzzleloaders 2006" does more to explain Randy's motivations more than any thing else.  When he discusses foreign made guns he really makes his feelings and his sincere beliefs well known.

If he wants to stop BPI/CVA or Spanish barrels get it to court, prove it physically, and quit running it through public opinion.  He has made his point and I am sure that he has reduced BPI's bottom line and I would even bet he has forced BPI into some better business practices, example - their new barrel campaign...

mike
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline Wolfhound

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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2006, 08:08:32 AM »
Quote from: sabotloader
Patrick,

I am not saying these things have not happened, because I believe they have but not just to CVA's, the question is WHY are they happening?  Everytime anything fails it is the manufactures fault in a lot of our eyes, but usually it isn't.  If the evidence was so compelling, and I hesitate using Randy's name, he would not need a single owner to press his claim in court.  All he would need is the physical evidence, he expetise, and a lawyer, not the curcumstantial retoric that he continues to use.  We, you and I, and a lot of other people are doing the same thing with the Savage incident, except the Savage is made here in the US so it must be the scoundrell that pulled the trigger fault.  Toby had and axe to grind before the incident, he did not like the new breech plug, he much preferred Ball's original one, and he tried to get Savage to recognize what he thought was a problem MAYBE even a safety problem.  Since they did not and the gun blew up it was Toby's fault according to the company and some of the general public.

Again I agree that problems have occured, and there are one heck of a lot of CVA's on the market, and they MAY not be built to the most rugged standards in the world but if the owner/operator stays with in the the manual and doesn't make a severe mistake you will get a lot of years service from them.  There are some really old CVA's still out there and working fine.

I think one of Randy's last posts on your wed site under the "muzzleloaders 2006" does more to explain Randy's motivations more than any thing else.  When he discusses foreign made guns he really makes his feelings and his sincere beliefs well known.

If he wants to stop BPI/CVA or Spanish barrels get it to court, prove it physically, and quit running it through public opinion.  He has made his point and I am sure that he has reduced BPI's bottom line and I would even bet he has forced BPI into some better business practices, example - their new barrel campaign...

mike


In a word, cost. I don't think they are built well enough or tested hard enough. They are built too close to the wire because it's cheaper. I think that most of them are fine but due to quality control and metal tolerance issues some are built under what is needed for their own max loads. I'd say most of these even are never pushed to the limits because the user maxes out around 100 gr of powder. The only time problems seem to arise is when the shooter uses 3 pellets. All but one of the cases I'm aware of were when using 3 pellets. I'm aware of something like 7 or 8 cases. Only one case I'm familiar with was with loose powder (110 gr) and that shooter was not injured (the one from Monster Mulies).

I had a CVA (Hunterbolt Mag.) and a Traditions (Buckhunter). Both were ok rifles and neither one blew up. The Hunterbolt wouldn't shoot well and I kept charges at or under 100 gr of powder. The Traditions I won as a door prize and never messed with it seriously. I put a couple hundred rounds through the CVA and never had a problem. The current owner has taken a number of deer with it and likes it. I warned him to never use more than 100 gr when this issue came up. If I thought it was unsafe at that level I'd buy it back and cut it up.

Toby's issue is totally different. He blew the gun in March (04 I think) and didn't tell people about it till after he was fired from Savage. To this day only one person knows what load was shot in that gun. Also if you've been following his story you'll note that it has changed. First it was the 3 hole ventliner "detonating" the powder and now it's a barrel flaw. To this day only one Savage muzzleloader has failed catastrophically, Toby's. Other's have survived loads that would turn any other muzzleloader into a pipe bomb. Shooting ramrods on top of a full charge and only been ringed.

As to other brands failures, I've heard of some. I know of a Black Diamond that blew it's breechplug out. The shooter didn't have it fully in. Stripped the last couple threads. All it needed was a new breechplug and striker to function. I've heard of a couple Knights blowing up when using smokeless powder. One of those guys submitted it to Knight as a warranty issue and got a Master Hunter. Poured pyrodex on it and lit it to get it to rust up and look like a failure. I don't know of any that were not shooter's error, but I don't know about any but the three I mentioned either. Knight and Thompson fully test their guns. Thompson still does not allow any more than 100 gr of 777 loose powder in their guns. They won't until they redo ALL their loads with 777. Knight and Thompson test their guns with overcharges. They won't tell people what overcharges they test with but it's more than 150 grains.

Quote
If he wants to stop BPI/CVA or Spanish barrels get it to court, prove it physically, and quit running it through public opinion. He has made his point and I am sure that he has reduced BPI's bottom line and I would even bet he has forced BPI into some better business practices, example - their new barrel campaign...


Which is more important to you if you get injured from shooting a gun? Trying to get a settlement to pay your medical bills plus pain and suffering or publicly suing CVA to force a recall that could bankrupt them and ensure that you could possibly recieve nothing? All but one of the cases involving injuries I know of have been settled and the injured person, law firm, consultants, etc. have signed non disclosure agreements. Otherwise they wouldn't have gotten anything without going to court. I can't blame them either.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2006, 08:27:18 PM »
I for a long time have felt that a person does not need 150 grains of powder in  muzzle loader to get the job done. The 45/70 uses 70 grains or so and will kill about anything on the planet. So why does any one need double? Oh I would bet the powder companies love it they sell powder twice as fast or at least a third as fast depending on the load. I have no issues with inlines I now own 4 as well as a side lock ball shooter.  Though my underhammers are not conventional looking nor are they "Modern look"  nor is the  32 cal "squirrel" rifle I am working on. I guess they still would be considered inlines.  Still no matter what the rifle used a smaller charge of powder should be all you need. If a person insist that they have to shoot 200 yard shots with a muzzle loader and they need 150 grains of powder then they should not have gotten into the sport in the first place. That is not my traditional side speaking either but one of what the sport started out as in the first place. I have no issue with inlines or scopes ect but once you start to get into centerfire territory I would be guessing that the DNR's of states that have muzzle loading hunting seasons will be taking a hard look at what is a muzzle loader and what is not even though they all load from the muzzle.  Not every gun made will take a 150 grain charge but guys still try to do it even though their owners manual may say 80 to a 100 grains max load.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline jgalar

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« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2006, 02:19:11 AM »
Ditto what jh45gun said....

Offline 257 roberts

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« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2006, 05:07:16 PM »
Interesting posts, I have a CVA and a Traditions.50cal
Both shoot very well, I shoot 100gr of 777 and a 250gr sabot.( Hornaday)
My nephew and I shot three deer this year with them, It don't get any better than that. :wink:

Offline flintlock

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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2006, 05:08:08 AM »
I agree with jh45...Although  most of my bp hunting is with a .40 and .54 custom flintlock, I do own a scoped Knight Disc....I shot 3-50gr pellets behind a 250 Shockwave one time.....That was enough for me!!! I have already had a detached retna...Never again....My current load is 90 grains Pyrodex R-S and a 250 Shockwave....Longest shot was 143 yards, full penetration.
What more could you ask for???