Author Topic: What is the best man stopper !! (Read 9018 times)

1GLOCK · « **on:** March 18, 2003, 07:18:37 AM »

Best one shot stopper ?

myronman3 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2003, 11:58:36 AM »

a woman

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2003, 02:02:48 PM »

I think that it would be hard to dispute that a properly loaded 44mag could EASILY stop a man faster and more reliably that any other round in the survey. :shock: It is just unlikely to have one handy when, and if, that need should ever arise. :wink:
I'll stick with my service weapon, a HK USP 40. I would prefer a fast 155gr bullet over the issued 180gr ammo, but that's regulation.
VH

myronman3 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2003, 03:28:56 PM »

or if he is thirsty... free beer. :toast:

securitysix · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2003, 05:08:12 AM »

Statistics say .357 Magnum, hence my vote. However, I believe the best man stopper (after a woman or free beer, of course) is whatever you have with you.

Original Ken · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2003, 10:23:34 AM »

I vote for the 45ACP also. I could easily be stopped by a 5 foot 10 blond with a Porsche Boxster and an unlimited bank account. Absent that, then I will take the 45 ACP. I also have a 9 mm carry and a 357 mag and both of those have been known to increase the population in local cemetaries. But for brute force and stopping power I think the 45 ACP still gets the trophy. Now the new S&W 50 may change the thinking on this but who wants that as a carry gun!!!!

myronman3 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2003, 03:03:45 PM »

now i have never shot a man with one but were i expecting trouble, my 45 auto would be the pistol i would prefer to have in my hand...

Raging480 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2003, 04:57:27 PM »

You can ask several people in my dept., the .45 acp loaded with 200 grain +p Gold Dots, sure did the trick!

handcanon · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2003, 02:38:20 AM »

why no .500 S&W in the poll??? after all it is just for drive-by shooting :blaster:

williamlayton · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2003, 03:32:24 AM »

lets get serious here pards---hands down--no question--no debates---
a woman in a short skirt & halter top--giving away free beer....lets hear it for the one brain celled american male.
blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2003, 04:15:32 AM »

Gee guys, I wuz gonna vote for my old Bronco at 60mph. Mikey.

Sharps-Nut · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2003, 08:39:19 AM »

I read a real good article a few years back that listed all handgun calibers and there real, yes based on actual street use, stopping power. The article was a wealth of information, I do not have the magazine nor the name but its listed something like this. 357 mag loaded with 125gr jhp 96%. 40s&w loaded with 135 gr jhp 96%. 45 acp loaded with 230 grain hydrashock 94%. 44 mag loaded with 210 grain silvertip 90%. 10mm loaded with 175gr 90%. 9mm loaded with 124 grain86-90%. 41 mag 175gr hp 82%. 44 spl laoded with 180 gr 87%. 38spl loaded with 115hp corbon 83% or 158 gr hp 78%. The list went on all the way down to the lone little 22 lr stinger at a suprisingly 34%. My opinion would run with large diameter fast expanding rather than the faster fps. Yes that is a bass ackwards way of saying how do you improve on the time proven 45acp. A little snubby in 44 spl would sound fairly good to also. A double action wheel gun will almost never fail to function.

1GLOCK · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2003, 10:43:11 AM »

Just was diggin though some back issues of guns & ammo and found an interesting article on this subject. They are saying that the 40s&w is #1 357 mag #2. Why this is? The ideal stopper round dies in the target, therefore expending every ounce of energy, the 40 and 357 both do this very well. The reason this intrests me is because of the relatively high number voting for the 44 mag. OVER penetration is the enemy because over penetration does not transfer all of the available energy to the target. This is why they are saying the 44 mag is a great hunting cartridge, heavier game requires deeper penetration.

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2003, 10:43:44 AM »

Shucks, I can't find the 12 gauge w/ 00 buckshot button.... Oops, this is a handgun forum :roll: . If it's only one shot, I gots ta go with a 44.
Blame it on Dirty Harry.

thomas · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2003, 03:07:02 PM »

No one here in this forum can EXPERTLY answer that question.
Even if your are a peace officer most have never had to shoot at a man more than once or twice and that in NO way make them an expert.
I think trying to pick the perfect man stopper is just idle talk. Buying a firearm for the EXPRESS reason of killing a man or intruder only fuels the fires burning in the hearts of liberals.
That said a 12 gauge sawed off shot gun would do nicely
tom

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2003, 02:42:51 AM »

Glock - I am sure that what you are saying is true. I am no expert, but my instincts tell me that if I have ONLY one shot, go with maximum horsepower. If there was a 50 cal I would go with that, if there was a 6 inch cannon, then that would get my vote - pass through be darned. That being said, this is all academic. A realistic choice is the one that allows quick follow up shots and the more the better.

PaulS · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2003, 11:13:01 AM »

Well, on a self-defense note, The 45 ACP was designed to stop a man in full field gear from stabbing a bayonet into your chest. The 40 S&W was designed to match the performance of the 45 ACP. Both will STOP a man. The 357 and other magnum calibers will kill more effectively but they will go through so fast that a man at a full run may not stop.

If you really want to stop a man in his tracks an eight inch cannon will do the trick every time (properly loaded of course)

PaulS

Lvl1trauma · « **Reply #17 on:** March 26, 2003, 04:06:54 PM »

I have taken care of a bunch of people shot with handguns. I will say the best choice of gun to stop someone is the closest one handy. Placement is everything. I have seen a .45 ball stopped and left in a knee and I have seen .22's go clean thru heads. Almost all of the 32 and .25 slugs don't expand no matter what they hit. Most people seem to initially survive multiple well placed (ie-chest) 9mm and smaller rounds only to die later. Those shot with what I term "dynamic" rounds such as .40 and larger to include .357 have very extensive soft tissue and bone damage. I haven't seen as many people shot with these, though, because my guess is they died on scene.

Beau

Savage · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2003, 02:34:11 AM »

I'm no expert either. But short of taking out the Central Nevrous System, there are no 100% one shot stoppers. How an individual reacts to a bullet strike on his person is dependent on a number of known variables and a lot more unknown. We had a deputy that took three .25s in the vest at arms length just a few weeks ago. He hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. He just managed to crawl back to the jeep, totally convinced he was dying. When he found out the bullets stopped in the vest he make a remakable recovery. Went from down and out to up and very, very angry!
Our swat team served a "No Knock" warrant and were met with gunfire. The suspect took nine center mass hits and kept on fighting till be bled out. With all that said, if you have to shoot-----SHOOT UM TO THE GROUND!! The larger the would channel the faster they bleed out though, which makes a good argument for a .45.
Stay Safe,
Savage

Robert357 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 29, 2003, 12:28:34 PM »

The legend of the 45 ACP is based (in my opinon) on the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde Report presented to General William Crozier.

The Analysis was based upon test firings of 9mm Luger, Colt 38 Model 1903 Army revolver, Colt 38 Military Model 1902 Semi-Automatic pistols, Colt 45 New Service Revolvers, Colt 455 new Servive Revolver, and Colt 476 New Service revolver. The tests occurred prior to and did not use 45 ACP.

Caliber specific's included:
9mm 92.6 gr 1420 fps 415 ft/lb
9mm 123.5 1048 301
38 Rev 148 763 191
38 Auto 130 1107 354
38 Auto 120 1048 293
45 Rev 250 gr 720 288
45 Rev 220 700 239
455 Rev 218.5 801 288
476 Rev 288.1 729 340

For comparison the winchester website lists the following information:
9mm 115 gr Super X Silver tip 1225 fps 383 ft/lbs
38 Special158 g LSWC SuperX 755 fps 200 gt/lbs
357 mag 158 JHP SuperX 1235 fps 535 ft/lbs
45ACP 185 SuperX J-Silver tip HP 1000 fps 411 ft/lbs
45 ACP 230 gr Supreme 880 fts 396 ft/lbs

Therfore the legend of 45 ACP stopping power is based heavily upon the 45 Colt revolver cartridge. The test involved shooting into human cadavers and living animals.

The conclusions were that "...the effectiveness of weapons of the pistol or revolver class increase with cailber rather than with the velocity. .... The stoping power and shock effects increased, as already stated, with the sectional areas of the bullets used."

It is important to understand what the report meant by "shock effect." The following is for the 9mm in cadavers...."The shock effects were not perceptible when soft parts alone were hit and scarely perceptile when joint ends of bones were traversed. When the middle of the shaft of the long bones was struck, the shock effect was equal to that of the 45 caliber Colt's Revolver with blunt-pointed bullet, and is consequently rated at 80."

They determined that a standard 9mm and 38 Special are no match to a 45 Long Colt or 455 Webly when it comes to stopping power. I can understand that.

My conclusion is that I am very comfortable with my 357 Mag, expecially if I use heavy bullets at +P high velocity. I think the test also confirms the idea of very heavy bullets being better performing than lighter bullets as much as it says that bigger caliber is better.

Savage · « **Reply #20 on:** March 29, 2003, 03:15:51 PM »

The most recent "study" that I have read was the FBI Wound Ballistics study. They found that in order for the temporary wound channel to be a factor in incapicitation, velocity would have to be in excess of 2000fps. They stated that the one shot stop depended more on the individual that the round he was struck with. You can countinue to fight long after having your heart blown to pieces or your lungs taken out. Some people drop like a rock from a flesh wound from a .22. Others continue to fight with multiple fatal wounds. Two things stop you: lack of blood or central nervous system disruption. How many times have you seen or heard of a deer running for a 100yds or more after being hit with a high vel round from a rifle with massive internal organ destruction. One more time: the only sure one shot stop is a solid hit to the CNS. All the others are bleed outs! The more holes and the bigger they are the faster the blood comes out. So, with the application of simple logic; I would say that a 12ga slug at about .700 would be the fastest and a .22 the slowest bleed out. Remember, a small dia. projectle might expand, but a large one won't shrink![/i]

Lvl1trauma · « **Reply #21 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:05:55 PM »

One shot stop to me is somewhat of a misnomer. My best guess from reading the various studies is that it is something that instantly kills the person on the receiving end. Many people survive fatal wounds only to die later. Sort of like deer do. A shot to the CNS is certainly without a doubt going to put someone on the ground and is a soon to be lethal wound. Even including the head it is a pretty small target. Another placement that isn't really thought about because it isn't considered immediatly deadly is a shot in the pelvis/hip bone. This will put someone down like being hit by a Mac truck. It takes their running gear out by giving it a shock. These are usually accidentally placed rounds. It is human nature to "push" the bullet out of the gun- even if you practice. I have seen by far more people hit in the belly and legs than the chest as a result of this. All of these studies are nice but it is hard to accurately measure just what will put a crack head or meth head down until you start trying to do it. Even without shooting these guys they are extremely hard to get physical control of. These studies mentioned measure wound channels. That is only nice on paper. I have seen more people survive near point blank shotgun wounds to the chest than anything- and they make holes you can put a fist into!! Give me a high velocity, large caliber bullet anytime- .357/125, .40/165. .41, .44, .45/185+p

Thank you for your time.
Beau
8 years of Level One ER Trauma Care

Butch · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2003, 05:35:12 PM »

Here's a good article on the subject:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2003, 02:21:34 AM »

I have always believed that velocity was the key to stopping an aggressors actions, given reasonable bullet diameter, weight & construction. This is likely why the 125gr 357mag has been a top performer.

Theoretically, if you increased any of these attributes from those provided by the 125gr 357mag, you would have an even better performer. The 44mag clearly provides a substantial increase in bullet mass and diameter while maintaining significant speed. While impractical, the 44mag would be a formidable round to use against a human. What surprises me is that twice as many responders to this survey feel that the 45acp would be a quicker stopper than the 44mag :?
What would be the rational behind this feeling?
If the 45acp was indeed a better "stopper" than the 44mag; why are so many of us venturing into the field in search of big game while armed with the 44mag? The 45acp would be much easier to carry and shoot.

VH

jhm · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2003, 04:41:23 AM »

I believe the main part of the poll question was more related to a defensive situation where the ranges would be limited, true as you increase the distance the 45acp is going to fall in the mud where the 44mag has sufficient vol. to carry it further downrange where it does have the advantage however I am of the beliefe between the 2 the 45 would be better at close combat ranges, my favorite 357 158gr.

JIM

Savage · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2003, 05:03:11 AM »

Butch,
Interesting link. I'm not balistician but here's one that makes a lot of sense to me.
www.gunnerynetwork.com/reference_material/hwfe.html

Stay Safe,
Savage

Savage · « **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2003, 11:23:53 AM »

I seem to remember reading about an experment that Elmer Keith was involved in. If memory serves, they took a .50BMG case and soldered a copper tube over the flash hole on the inside of the case. The case was then loaded with a duplex powder charge with the faster burning powder in the rear of the case. Their purpose in this was to ignite the slower burning powder in the upper section of the case first with the resultant ignition of the faster burning power in the rear of the case as secondary.
They machined some bronze projectles down to some caliber under .30, and necked the cases down to fit. With this combination the attempted to prove that with high enough velocity the hydrastatic shock (temporary wound channel) would be a devastating killer. As I recall the results were quite disappointing. The animals shot with this hyper velocity round initally showed no sign of being hit. Some continued to graze untill they fell from bleeding out. Anyone remember this with more detail than I do?
Stay Safe,
Savage

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2003, 11:56:26 AM »

I don't know about all of that, but I can tell you what a broadside hit whitetail looks like after being hit with a 140gr B-Tip @ 3,550 from my 7STW. UGLY!! :eek: :eek:

Savage · « **Reply #28 on:** April 19, 2003, 12:12:03 PM »

VH,
Hope you hit him behind the front sholders. Then you'd still have the fore and hind quarters. Not much left in between I bet! We use the Ballistic Tip bullets in our ARs because the explosive expansion prevents over penetration on wall board and such.
Stay Safe,
Savage

Flashole · « **Reply #29 on:** April 19, 2003, 01:01:07 PM »

Like most members this is just a guess. I have never shot anyone.
Voted for 45ACP but any on the list right between the eyes will work splended :shock: Again this is only a guess

Poll

What is the best one shot man stopper ?

Author Topic: What is the best man stopper !! (Read 9018 times)