Author Topic: American Primatives  (Read 966 times)

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Offline Joel

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« on: February 04, 2006, 05:14:53 PM »
I'm not a forger, but sometimes I do go back to my roots, to when I first started making knives.  For the first two years I made my knives out of old files, which I would "cool grind"and then finish normally.  I recently became involved with making a couple more, this time in a pattern I'd made for a previous customer.   The customer wanted these to look like they had been made by some backwoods colonist from the 1670-1790 period, so they're deliberately a bit rough in appearance. The Bigger one is from an ancient file I had laying around marked Delta.  It was 1/4" thick which was too thick for what I had planned, so I thinned it down to 3/16".  Got rid of all the old belts laying around that I was too reluctant to throw out.  Lots of room for new ones now.  Trying to grind something that is built to resist abrasion is always fun.  Blade is W-2 and is 6 3/8"long  and the handle is a beautiful piece of Whitetail that the customer sent me.  Put a LOT of distal taper into the blade, so the knife, which is 11"long only weighs 8 oz.
 The second blade is from a sandvik file and Whitetail antler that I had dyed a few years ago.  Similar to another one I think I show here. 6" blade.  Both knives are triple tempered with two "freezing" periods between temperings(no, I don't want to get into an argument as to whether that works or not....it does though). Differentially heated for a soft back and tang.  That's the last two of these I'm going to make for a while.  Fun to do, but nothing I care to go back to doing as a steady diet.



Offline Woodbutcher

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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2006, 02:07:44 AM »
Dear Joel:
 You could set up a showplace and charge admission. I'd pay!
 Is it too much to ask, or too involved to briefly describe your thoughts on "cool grind" ? Seems obvious, dunk it frequently so it ain't gettin too hot, but is there anything else?
 Shucks, even I can grind on a hunk 'o steel, .......it's knowin when to quit!
                                                                Woodbutcher

Offline Joel

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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2006, 04:13:07 AM »
Wood,
        Thank you sir.  They did turn out ok , in a primitave sort of manner.  Its what he wanted.  As you say, cool grinding is making sure the blade does not lose its original heat treat by overheating the blade.  Harry Morseth, the famous knifemaker, was well known for his knives which were made out of Scandinavian laminated steel and which he cool ground.  Files are a royal pain in the butt to grind, because the are designed to resist what you're trying to do to them.  Trying to grind them using worn belts is a waste of time.  Use new belts.  I started out using 40 grit blue zirconium  on these and then went to 100 grit, then 80 grit ceramic and then to silicon carbide belts.  They get dunked in cold water after each pass on the grinder.  I grind barehanded anyway, so it's pretty easy for me to know when the blade is getting hot.  Not uncommon for me to dunk my thumb in the water before the blade!!   You have to keep from applying too much pressure and moving the blade too slowly at the same time. That's a sure way to "burn" it.  As you grind,watch for "colour"to start appearing.  If it does, let off on the pressure and move quicker.  A blade can handle getting some "straw"colour on it, but anything more than that is too much. If it turns black in spots, you might as well throw it away.
Don't be in a hurry.  It takes me much longer to grind a file, than say 154CM or D-2.  tempering is done in my toaster oven.  Since these blades were most likely W-2 steel, after reaching the proper colour at the 400 degree heat,which is "straw gold", they get dunked in a 170 degree can of brine.  You make the brine by adding salt to the water until an egg will float.  I use a candy thermometer to check the brine temperature.  thats it.  Files are good to learn on, plus they make great blades.  Mine really hold an edge.

Offline JeffG

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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2006, 01:44:25 PM »
Very nice Joel!! :D
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff

Offline scherm

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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2006, 08:06:17 AM »
My first couple of knives where made from files.  I remember how hard it was to work tih them compared to the metals I work with now.  


Nice Work Joel  :grin:

Offline Woodbutcher

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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 01:25:33 PM »
Gentlemen:
 The 'puter moniter "fizzled" on tuesday, or I would have responded sooner.
 Joel, dunkin your thumb is funny, but it's easier to laugh when it stops hurtin!
 Are you saying that after slow grinding, you will bring the steel blade up to 400 degrees and quench in warm brine? Is this for files only, or a good general practice for other steel?
 Gee, I've got a roaster oven that would work fine for this, while the meatloaf is going. Do you bring it up to temp by looking at the color, and quench immediately, or let it "soak" for a while? Is the time period that the steel is at 400 degrees important? Does a mere 400 degrees indeed take away the brittleness from a file?
 If this step is a good practice, I can handle it easily. Never knew to treat the finish ground blade like this. That's why I like to work with files, they're a known steel, and when you're done grinding, you're done.
 Thank you for your thoughts.                          Woodbutcher

Offline Joel

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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 05:31:32 PM »
WB,
    Files are generally too hard and brittle the way they're Heat treated.  God only knows how many I snapped before I finally learned how to temper them properly.  That toaster over works well for tempering carbon steels, and some stainless.  If you're going to  do that get yourself a cheap oven thermometer at Wally World or where ever.  Makes the job easier.  The idea is to temper the steel to a lower Rockwell than what the files are originally heated to.  400 Degrees is a good temperature for steels such as W-1, W-2, 1095 etc, and is what most files are commonly made of anyway.  It works for other steels that are tempered in the temperature range; not just the steels I mention.     Depending on the "colour"you stop at you will get a blade with a Rockwell anywhere from 59-62, which is a lot better than the original files.  That is if you temper to "straw"(gold) colour.  If left in the oven the colour will change to red, then blue, purple.  Each colour has a lesser Rockwell value with red being around 52-57 and blue is around 45, which is "spring steel".  Some guys actually like to temper to red, but gold suits me.    I then use my oxy/mapp gas brazer to heat the tang and blade back to blue .  If you want to go that far with it let me know and I'll let you know how I do it.  Hope I'm being fairly clear here.  One of the forger guys like Scherm etc do this all the time and can probably chip in and give a better explantion than I can.  I just do files :wink:

Offline Will52100

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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 09:42:48 PM »
Nice work, I like the frontier/rustic look.  You might find it easier to grind the files if you anealed them then re-heat treated. Adds a step or two but make the steel a lot eaiser to grind.
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Offline Joel

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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2006, 03:11:18 AM »
Yeah, I know, but I don't have any way to re-heat them back up to critical temp, so I'm stuck grinding them cool.  I only rarely make one, so it's not worth the effort of making even a one brick forge.

Offline scherm

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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2006, 07:30:20 AM »
You explained it pretty well Joel and Will added antoher good bit of info.  

Files are what I started out with, I work in a large machine shop and worn out files are easy to come by.   I remember how hard it was trying to work with them before I learned about annealing and tempering and such.  It was like night and day  :grin:

Offline Will52100

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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2006, 06:29:10 PM »
Sorry Joel, it's easy for me to forget that not everyone has a torch or is enthralled by fire! :oops:
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Offline quigleysharps4570

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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2006, 03:19:44 AM »
Very nice.