Author Topic: deer with 1911/45acp (Read 11150 times)

Cheesehead · « **on:** February 09, 2006, 12:29:59 PM »

Has any one used a 1911/45acp successfully for deer?

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2006, 02:28:09 AM »

Cheesehead: about 10 years ago I took a good sized doe on the last day of season with a 45 acp. I had basically given up on the season and was out checking the property without intending to hunt, which is why I was carrying the 45. Anyhow, she walked right up to about 20 yds from me and I took her with one shot through the chest with a 230 gn jacketed flat point hollow cavity (think it was a Hornaday bullet but not sure) ove r7.2 of Unique. The slug penetrated clean through her chest - she took off but crumbled trying to get up a small hill. I knew the slug had penetrated as I could see it kick up snow behind her and knew she would drop but didn't feel comfortable enough with that shot to want to try it again. Although honestly, I feel the result would have been the same if I had placed the same shot with just about any caliber at that range. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2006, 02:56:48 AM »

Every successful account I've heard or read about has one common denominator: close range.

I believe with the right bullet at ranges under 50 yards, it will work reasonably consistently. But why bother? We have 44 magnums, which were made for the job. Additionally, 45ACP is not legal in many states that otherwise permit handgun hunting.

I've gone woodchuck hunting with the 45ACP and performance is about the same as 22LR. I've shot 45ACP and creosoted logs that the 44 would completely penetrate; the 45s just bounced off and landed about a foot in front of the log.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2006, 12:01:37 AM »

I weight about half again as much as a whitetail deer and i sure wouldnt want to bet on walking away from a hit in the chest by one. Contrary to what you read on the internet deer dont wear kevlar chest protectors and are relitivly easy to kill as are black bear in most cases. Ive shot both with guns alot less powerfull then a 45acp. Trick to the whole game is hitting them properly with a bullet that will reach there vitals. If you hit a deer in the heart with anything from a .458 mag to a 22 rimfire that animals is dead. If you hit that same animal in the guts with both your going to do some tracking. Maybe a little less with the .458 but you best have your hiking shoes on.

Savage · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2006, 03:02:03 AM »

Lloyd is absolutely correct. At reasonable ranges, where a good hit is atainable, a .45acp will shoot thru a deer sized animal the majority of the time. I'd never hunt deer with one as long as I had more efficent weapons, but if the opportunity came, and the animal was close
enough-------------------.
Savage

Cheesehead · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2006, 12:33:17 PM »

I have a springfield long slide v16 in 45acp that I am wanting to take a deer with. I would do this with an archery mentality. A CLOSE broad side shot in the vitals. Perhaps golden sabre 230 grain handloads. Years of bow hunting experience and years of bullseye competition will work in my favor. This is a legal gun for big game in Wisconsin. I have shot 45 acp in competition many times and have confidence in my ability to do this.

K.K. · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2006, 01:17:11 PM »

I don't think that I'd intentionally hunt deer with one, but it would certainly do the job with a good load, and close ranges as mentioned above.

As a possibly interesting side note, my uncle killed a medium sized black bear many years ago that was being a menace around camp using hardball ammo. This is obviously a tougher critter than a whitetail. Gotta love the 45 ACP!

kenscot · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2006, 01:16:05 AM »

I hit a doe once with my colt commander and a speer 200gr HP, she went down in a heep that bullet does some nasty stuff

Bowhunter57 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2006, 06:57:12 AM »

Cheesehead,
I'm glad you posted this thread, as I was about to do it myself. I'm considering the purchase of either a Rock Island or Witness in 45 a.c.p. for deer hunting. It'll get used for various varmints too....both the 4 and 2 legged kind.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

jro45 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2006, 04:21:29 AM »

I don't load my 230 gr bullets quite so hot. I use 6.7 gr of Unique. That puts them at 910 fps.

They go half way thru a bowling pin.

longwalker · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2006, 02:58:21 PM »

I would like to try, but they are specifically excluded from use for big game in South Dakota.

However I have heard they are very effective at close range. Twenty or Thirty yards kind of range.

longwalker

a45gunslinger · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2006, 06:43:07 PM »

Cheesehead you nailed it , I believe it'll work with the archery mentaility..Kind of like fishing for bass w/ 4# test..just practice , practice, practice - Kevin
I've often thought about it. check this clip out, I can shoot about a 5" 6 shot group at 10 yds in under two seconds.. I just don't think it'll be very good for the meat :roll: http://www.zippyvideos.com/4134030941028826/000_0441/*harnphanich

Questor · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2006, 05:19:59 AM »

There is an interesting article in this months' Handloader magazine on 300 grain boat tail 45ACP bullets at 770fps. Penetration was dramatically greater than 230 grainers. Could be an interesting option for deer hunters who want to use the 45ACP for deer hunting. The author believes it can be gotten to over 800fps.

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:24:10 PM »

Questor: I've got that article in front of me now and the design of that bullet is quite interesting - boattailed to prevent bulging and the penetration is incredible. And pretty darned accurate too. I wonder what the backlog is going to be like on the demand for those - I'll probably have to order mine today............. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2006, 02:26:31 PM »

Make sure you post the results here. It's quite interesting. Hopefully the bullet company has some good load data to go with them. My antennae tell me that Unique might be a good powder for them.

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2006, 02:22:07 AM »

Questor - I e-mailed Custom Projectiles (the firm that makes those 300 grainers) and ordered some to shoot. They said the bullets come with load data and that is a good thing. I would like to see how the accuracy differs at different velocities with that load.

My copy of the Handloader article is a photocopy and did not show the jackets on those slugs well - their website does a much better job and those look like some interesting slugs. I'll keep you posted on how well they shoot. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2006, 03:33:16 AM »

Awesome! I don't recall that they gave an address in the article so I'm glad you found them anyway. It's a pretty exciting development.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2006, 05:24:52 AM »

I would be very interested in loading specifications and various test results for this new 45 slug. The penetration would be tremendous.

Thanks
Cheesehead

Mikey · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:12:21 AM »

Questor and Cheesehead: I received 50 of the 300 grain 45 slugs from Northwest Custom Projectiles yesterday. They weigh out to 304 grains. They did not come with any loading data but the article by Bob Campbell in the Handloader provided 5.8 grains of Unique produced 756'/sec without any pressure signs and worked the 45 they used for the test the same way standard hardball would.

That article also showed the groups opening up a bit from 1.5" to 2.5" at 25 yds as the velocity increased to about 820'/sec but again, no load data was provided.

I'm going to load up a few with 5.8 of Unique and see how they shoot from my Springfield Government Model with its Ed Brown barrel.

Supposedly there was a Taffin article out there on this slug that provided some load data but I haven't seen the article. Has anyone seen that article with the load data??????? Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:48:39 AM »

Thanks, Mikey. You'd think they'd supply some data considering that their bullets are make specifically for this one purpose.

Savage · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:18:04 AM »

Mikey,
From what I've been reading, it looks like OAL is the major obstacle to reloading the 300gr bullets in 45acp. Looks like there is little room left for powder after seating the bullet to facilitate function in an autoloader.
John Taffin supposedly has some data in an article in "Handloader" . Looks like you have to do an online subscription to view the information.
Here is a link if you are interested:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/signup_info.cfm
There is load data on the bullet manufacturer's site for the 260gr in 45AR that could be used in 45acp if you wanted to use the 260gr bullet.
Let us know how this works out for you.
Savage

Mikey · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2006, 10:17:59 AM »

Savage - thanks for the link. The article I read was from the Handloader Magazine but it didn't give much in the way of load data. The article did go into the problems of trying to fit most 300 gn slugs into a 45 case, which apparently was the basis for the development of this 'boattailed' pistol slug. And also from that article it looks like 5.8 grains of Unique is the place to start, so I think I'll start there and throw a few down the tube to see how they fly.

It's still a bit cold in the gun room so I think I'll wait until next week to load some up. I'll post the results when I'm done.

BTW guys, these darn things cost a real pretty penny for only 50 of them, so they aren't really the type of specialty slug you want to go plinking with - I think I'll save that bit of fun for the much lesser expensive cast boolets I enjoy shootin'. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2006, 03:33:18 AM »

Mikey:

I wonder how much custom bullet moulds cost to make. I often see that mould makers will make them custom if you send them a design. Could bullets with this shape be made from a custom bullet mould? It may be worth looking into because this combination of deep penetration from a 45 caliber 1911 is an interesting niche. I wonder what the estimated cost would be if you sent one of those bullets to a custom mould maker.

Mikey · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2006, 02:29:48 PM »

Questor - a custom mould for that bullet is an interesting idea and would allow you to cast them as hard as you want.

When you take a good look at this bullet it looks truncated, like some of older 9mm cast bullets looked, except for the 'boattail' configuration. And this particular bullet is labeled as a 'low velocity' bullet and I can understand why - the lead nose of this slug feels like it would deform easily. That in itself may not be much of a concern seeing as how it penetrates as much as it does and may even be a benefit with a deep penetrating expanding slug.

I do not see any problems with functioning with this bullet - the 'truncated' nose allows for jam-free feeding and when loaded to GI ball length she feeds just fine in both my 45s.

I loaded 10 rounds. 3 with only 5.5 grains of Unique, the other 7 with 5.8 grains of the same powder. The later match the loads used in the article and should give me good accuracy, especially since it it really a jacketed soft nose bullet.

If cast I think it would shoot just as well and if cast hard might add a new dimention to the 45 acp, giving it real penetration and hopefully better bone-busting ability on the larger and less friendly critter types.

I would like to see how she penetrates in some medium other than wet newspaper and I don't have any ballistic gelatin or clay to play with. I may just set up some old 2x4s and see how many this slug with go through and compare that to 45 ball and a couple of cast slugs I shoot.

It should be interesting and this weekend my fiance has promised to teach me how to use my digital camera (only 2 yrs old now) so I can take some pictures and post the results.

I'll keep you posted. Mikey.

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** April 09, 2006, 09:34:32 AM »

OK, I went and shot these 300 grain, .452 diameter, bullets at 25 yds. but was not impressed.

Penetration is not an issue. I have no doubt that this 300 gn boattailed 45 slug from the acp penetrates a bunch more (8" more) in the wet newspaper they tried in the Handloader article which should make it more effective on heavier game. I could not find any of the 300 grain slugs I fired into the range berm - they penetrated too far, but so did the 230 gn ball I compared it with.

I did not attain the same accuracy they reported in the article. They used a Mitchell 45 from a Ramsom rest and grouped really well. I used a Springfield Gov't Model with GI sights, a Chip McCormick trigger group, an Ed Brown barrel and busing and a Wolff 22 lb recoil spring kit. Probably not even in the same category as the Mitchell but this Springfield groups to 2" at 25 yd with ball and performed the same this morning when I shot a test target. The 300 gn bullet did not group as well as my comparison loads.

I shot two 300 gn loads: one with 5.5 grn of Unique and one with 5.8 gn of Unique. Both fed and functioned fine. The 5.5 gn load was easy to shoot, the 5.8 seemed a bunch snappier. I used S&B brass (that has been reloaded a number of times), Winchester Large Primers and some fairly new Unique. The loads, seating depth, etc., were consistent, I felt. The 5.5 gn load shot to about 4" without a flier. Recoil was easy and primers showed no high pressure signs. The 5.8 gn load shot worse, opening up to about 5" with fliers. Recoil was sharper, the primers showed some flattening and the firing pin indents were flattened out a bit - higher pressure loads certainly. My comparison load of a Winchester 230 gn ball over 6.5 of Unique shot to a hair over 2".

OK, no comparison on the pistols, I'm sure. But I'm a pretty decent shot and can usually call my shots - I called all of these but they didn't always wanna listen. I'm pretty certain these slugs will shoot as advertized in the right pistols but mine isn't one of them. Maybe some of you other fellas should give it a try. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #25 on:** April 10, 2006, 01:14:30 AM »

Drat! That's not a very good result. Was that the powder they used in the article?

Mikey · « **Reply #26 on:** April 10, 2006, 02:44:08 AM »

Questor: they used Unique and the load they used to get the accuracy results they claim was 5.8 gn.

I'm going to repeat the tests a bit later this week just to be fair. This time I will use (just) once fired brass and see if the pressure signs come down a bit. The other thing I had thought about was that the bullets are sized at .452. Most jacketed slugs I reload for the 45 are sized at .451. I know that sometimes a 1/1000 oversize on a cast slug can open up your groups but these just weren't even groups.

I figure the Mitchell was a custom piece, which is far above the quality of my tricked out mil-spec but I expected better results than what I got. So, let me try it again and see if I can do better. I will also work up in increments of 1/10th grain of powder to see if mine shoots any better with a slightly lower charge.

I think it only becomes 'fun' when the groups are good - when not it is kinda frustrating but hey, that's what testing is for.

I also wonder if another flake powder or possibly a ball powder like 231 would work better but then I would be into 'extrapolating' data and that could make things verry interestink indeed. Mikey.

Savage · « **Reply #27 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:53:45 AM »

Mikey,
You mean you only have one .45? Shame on you!!
Savage

Questor · « **Reply #28 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:32:36 AM »

Mikey:

I still can't get over the fact that the bullet company did not provide some good load data for these bullets. You said they're expensive and I don't think you should have to fritter away your money by figuring how to load the stinking things. Can't they come up with anything for you? My minimum expectation would be data for three powders. The only exception I can think of to this expectation would be for 44 and similar cartridges where H110/W296 are THE powders for high performance hunting loads.

My own tendency would probably be to go to a slower powder rather than a faster powder. Maybe Blue Dot or AA5.

I just dug out my Loadbooks USA 45ACP book and here's what I found for bullets heavier than 230 grains. My conclusion: Try some penetration with 260 grain Speer bullets and some HS7 powder.:
IMR powder (bullet, brass, and primer brands unspecified):
800-x powder:
260gr JHP min=5.8gr@730fps/13,800CUP max=6.4gr@790fps/17,100CUP
260gr JHP min=4.2gr@714fps/14,400CUP, max=4.6gr@746fps/17,400CUP

Winchester powder:
231 powder:
260gr Jacketed min=4.4gr@681fps/12,400CUP, max=5.0gr@788fps/16,600CUP

Alliant/Hercules
Blue Dot:
260gr JHP min=7.5gr@721fps/13,100CUP, max=8.0gr@764/15,400CUP

Unique:
260gr JHP min=5.0gr@695/13,400CUP, max=5.8gr@755/15,100CUP

Hodgdon powder: tested in 5 barrel
HS7 powder
260gr min=8.8gr@816fps/13,500CUP max=9.3gr@853/15,900CUP (woo hoo!)

HS6 powder
260gr min=7.5gr@801fps/13,900CUP, max=8.0gr@849fps/16,800CUP

+P load for HS7 with no reduction in charge weight recommended. 5 barrel.
260gr 10.0gr@891fps/19,700CUP (!!! Ya know, Mikey, you may want to try some 260 grainers.)

Speer data for their 260gr JHP. COL=1.200 Primer=CCI 300 Case=Speer, Gun=SIG P-220
Herco powder. Min=6.3gr@775fps, max=6.9gr@847fps
231 powder. Min=5.4gr@756fps, Max=5.9gr@824fps
Unique powder Min=5.8gr@752fps, Max=6.3gr@821fps

Questor · « **Reply #29 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:35:58 AM »

Mikey:

I'd also be looking for a spring heavier than 22#. Maybe 24#. What do you think? I can't help thinking these are going to recoil more than a 230 grainer, and therefore pose the risk of battering your gun.