deer with 1911/45acp

[Questor]

It looks like Graybeard Outdoors moved to India. The timestamps on my posts are quite a bit off.

[Mikey]

Questor - you're gonna get a laugh out of this, I hope.  Went back to the range with some 5.2 and 5.5 Unique loads under that 300 gn slug.

They shot a bit better this time but only because I loaded the slugs in bass-ackwards.  Yep, I reversed them.  I couldn't stand the thought of wasting $38  on a box of truncated nose slugs when what I was looking for was a flat nosed swc (much like the Keith 45 Colt slug) and am also trying some of the 238 gn swcs made for the 45 Auto Rim to see if they would work for me.  And lo and behold sez I, the base of this 300 gn boattailed  (?) pistol slug, which was jacketed, looked just like the swc profile I wanted.  So I loaded them backwards and the dang things shot a bit more accurately and left a very nasty looking set of holes in the target.  Reversed, the slug looks like a 255 gn fmj-swc, and hits like one too.  No pressure signs for either load.  No ftf or fte.  

I may try this again this week just to see if I can shoot better and see which end penetrates farther.  Man, if these things work better backwards it would be a hoot - especially if they penetrate as well.  Mikey.

[Questor]

It is amusing. The notion occurred to me also, so it must be a somewhat natural conclusion. I was looking at the profile of some heavy cast .452 bullets and wondered whether they would work well if shot gascheck forward. The taper of the bullet seemed like they'd be shaped to fit inside the 45ACP case. I don't know about length, but maybe that's a way of getting low cost 300 grain 45ACP bullets.  If they are like other wadcutters, perhaps they'll fly straight out to 50 yards before losing stability.  

For $38 per box they should have sent you gold-plated load data!

[Mikey]

Questor - interesting thought but I think reversing a gaschecked swc would defeat the purpose of the gas-check and possibly lead up your barrel.

Something I forgot to mention earlier - these slugs are sized at .452.  Most 45 acp slugs I have reloaded size to .451 and most factory fodder I am aware of sizes in at .451.  These 300 grainers shot through my bore - that is, they grouped like an oversized boolet.  Why the hay didn't they size these things to .451 - becausae the same bullet is used in the 454 Mikey, that's why.  And those things probably need to be at .452 to give any accuracy at all in those big bore revolvers.  

Interesting note - the pressure signs I saw at 5.5 grains of Unique were not there with the bullet reversed which leads me to again duplicate the 5.8 gn load but with the bullet reversed.  I can understand how the pressures might be less with the truncated end of the bullet not taking up as much case 'space' as the swc type end.  I can easily say that it is not difficult to see the hole in a Shoot 'n' See when you hit the target fat end first.  

I wonder if I could size them down one thousands and get better accuracy - wouldn't that be a hoot to be able to send the maker an e-mail that said - hey, turn the bullet around and size it to .451 and it shoots like a house-afire.  Well, that depends on the next round of tests...... Mikey.

[Questor]

You're more patient than I am. At this point I usually start thinking of what six inch square area I want to protect from dust, then put the box there and let it sit for a few decades.

[slink]

load, 850 fps, with a 230 gr load. Might get a bit more velocity with a cast bullet, I suppose.  You don't need or want increased penetration for deer.  Shooting at the south end of a northbound one is a bad idea, even with a much more powerful load.

Why bother with the .44, if you have a .45? I aint buying a special gun just for deer, when I already have one that will serve, and also be the ccw gun (which the .44 can't do).  I can just run the reamer .060" deeper into the chamber of a used ($50) fully supported barrel, use  460 Rowland brass, my .45 ACP dies, and get a 185 gr jhp to 1500 fps if I want, in the 1911.  Cut a .44's barrel to 3" long, so that it's the same  8.5" OAL as the 1911, and see if you can get a 180 gr jhp to 1500 fps.  LOL.  Not that anyone needs or wants that sort of power or recoil, but it does show the potential of old slabsides.

[Mikey]

Questor - hokay, I'm starting with these things again.  I purchased a used Lyman sizer/luber and have squoze down almost every .452 slug I had hanging around.  Fortunately most were cast and re-sized easily.  Then I say - 'hey', why not resize those 300 gn jacketed slgus I got, and I did.  They resized easily and you could tell they had been resized.  

I couldn't quite figure out why they had made those up in .452 diameter when every other maker produces jacketed 45 acp slugs in .451 - then I rememebered (duh) that they also make this bullet for the 454 and heavy 45 Colt loads so they would have to be sized properly to shoot accurately in those bores.  Maybe they could make them in .451 diameter as well.  I get the impression the bullet is created by first stamping out the jacket and then swaging in the lead core, but I'm not 100% on that.  

So anyhow, I have 25 of these 300 gn slugs left and will load them over 5.5 and 5.8 gns of Unique.  I found that when I reversed the bullet in the case I had lower pressure signs with my used brass than when I loaded them soft nose out.  I am expecting lower pressure signs even with the 5.8 gn load as they will be reversed and also sized down.  I am hoping for better accuracy too.

Ya gotta admit that this is an interesting bullet, especially for a 'first availability' of a really heavy 45 acp slug.  I will load half a dozen each over 5.5 and 5.8 gns of Unique with the bullet reversed.  If the 5.8 gn load with the reversed, resized slug is accurate then I will conduct penetration tests with the bullet both reversed and loaded normally.  I don't keep all my old newspapers as the only local rag we have is soooo liberal that I'm afraid the slugs would wuzz out before they even got to the bundles but I do have lots of large chunks of cut pine around.  I will try and set up a couple of chunks about 2' diameter and see what they do.  I am interested in recovering a 'reversed' slug to see how much blast erosion the soft lead base may have suffered by reversing the bullet in the case.  But I wonder if it would be much at all, as it is a truncated nose design..............

As I mentioned before, I think it would be a hoot to see if these things shot more accurately reversed and resized, and if they penetrated the same as the soft nose or even deeper that would be all the better.  I would hope that the folks at NWCP (who make these things) would not get all whizzed off at me for turning their bullet around in the case and sizing it down.  It would be great to get another box of slugs (on the house) for further testing if they didn't choke on my results, if I get any better results at all.  

I wonder if anyone would ever come up with a hardcast version of this slug.  The metplat on the base of this jacketed slug is incredibly big for a 45 slug - I'm hoping it will penetrate even deeper than the soft nose.  Then, if we could buy a hardcast version that shot accurately it would really add a new dimension to the 45 acp.  Mikey.

[Questor]

I think the hard cast version would be more desirable (and economical).

At least the bullet is in good company. For a long time the Corvette was more aerodynamic when driving backward that when driving forward. Maybe this is true of the 300 grain 45ACP bullet too.

[Mikey]

Well okay, enough of the 300 gn bullet (in my gun) business.  I just couldn't get those things to shoot worth a dang, sqoze or unsquoze, front end or butt end forward, recommended accuracy load or not.  Couldn't get a group - would get two nice ones and a flier out of every 3.  Got a couple of tumblers goin' butt end first and even a couple of jacket/core separations too.  They are way too expensive to play with.

Sooooooooo, its back to the search for a good, accurate heavy swc load for the 45.  A man's work is never done......................... Mikey.

[Questor]

Thanks for sharing your experiences Mikey. That's quite a disappointment, but for the money they were charging, it's probably just as well. There's got to be a better way.

[Jon_E]

Here is an actual field report on using .45 ACP on Texas Whitetai

Now for proper sized 300-gr .4515 copper jacketed bullets Sierra has one for ya if you JSP

Here is some load data from the Load Swap at Beartoothbullets.com using a cast 300-gr WFN bullet in .45 ACP
925.5 fps C452-300-gr WFN .452 Unique 6.4 grains CCI #300 Large Pistol Winchester

These bullets have plenty of frontal .360 melpat diamiter for alot of smackdown.


I did speak with Mashall Stanton owner of Beartooth Bullets and he said that the 300-gr did not stablize well in his .45 ACP but that the 255-gr WFN  did quite well.  Here is the load data for this bullet having a melpat diamiter of .360
893 fps Beartooth WFN PB .452 AA #5 7.4 grains WLPP Winchester
 

[myronman3]

now that looks like the bullet i would use ifn i were going to try that.   i actually have some 255 grain bullets i bought for light loads in my 454.  sold that and still had the bullets, so i loaded them up for the 45.   accuracy is just as good as anything else i used.   if i ever try to smite a deer with my 45,  these 255 grain semi wad cutters is exactly what i would use.  or that 260 grainer pictured above.    with the velocities the 45 is capable of,  i would think a fella would be better off shooting cast bullets instead of the jacketed.   the jacketed 45 bullets are mainly made to expand quickly- i.e. mankillers.    anyhow,  if you can get 800 fps with a 260 grain semi wad cutter design,  place the bullet where you want it,  you should be good.   i know cheese has had some problems with the porting cutting into the lead bullets and causing leading,  but i would think enough jacketed bullets would smooth that out.   and i have a feeling that cheesehead has enough jacketed bullets laying around that smoothing that bore out could be done in short order.   

[Mikey]

Interesting thiing about the 45 acps and the 45 Colts and the 45 AR - they all have the same twist rate so you would think that anything that shoots accurately in one or the other should do fine in the 45 acp.  Some of the older Lyman accuracy loaDS FOR THE 45 Colt should do fine in the ACP.  Most of the old accuracy loads are around 830'/sec for the Colts 250 grainer and that's about the same for some of the ACP accuracy loads.  You would think that a 'Colt level' load in the ACP should work sufficiently on whitetail out to about 50 yds but I would think that to be about max.  Mikey.

[44 Man]

Well, if I HAD to hunt with a .45 acp (and I don't, but I often carry one in the woods while hunting), this is my fisrt choice of bullet.  These were given me by a friend and I believe he said it was a Lee mold designed for .45 colt.  It is a WFN style at 230 gr gas check bullet.  It's seated just at the curve of the bullet.  It will not feed through the old style 'tapered lips' magazines but feeds fine through Wilson or Metalform type (swc feed lips) magazines.  Loaded over a normal load for 850 to 900 fps, I would trust this bullet to do the job.  Of course distance and placement are still more important than bullet design.  But we always want to have the best bullets available also.  44 Man

[Dee]

People hunt deer with a bow but, are sceptical about punching a bigger hole with a projectile that is moving three and one half times the speed of their arrow. Examine the rib thickness protecting the heart lung area of a whitetail to a moose and tell yourself a 45acp 200 grain hollow point travelling in excess of 1000fps is less likely to pentrate those ribs than an arrow.

[Mikey]

44 Man - that is a right proper lookin' slug for the ACP.  Is this a Lee Mold - for the 45 Colt you said, and in 230 gn gc???  Mikey.

[Savage]

Dee,
Although an arrow may only be traveling at 300fps or so, it's much heavier weight insures plenty of penetration at reasonable ranges. Different type of wound channel, the bullet tends to crush tissue, while the broadhead lacerates. Either one will do the job!
Cheers,
Savage

[44 Man]

Mikey, we'll have to ask Lloyd Small about the bullets to be sure as he gave them to me.  But I do believe that's what he said, but we must have talked about 20 different bullets that day.  I just shot him an e-mail and asked him to correct me if I am wrong.  44 Man

[Lloyd Smale]

that bullet is out of an lbt mold its a 220 lfngc for the acps. Another good one is the 230 rcbs cdbm cowboy mold. I have the lee group buy custom version of that mold which is about identical but with no crimp grove. It shoots and feeds real well and has a slightly rounded lfn style profile and would make a great deer bullet. Other choices I would go with are the lyman 200 swc and any of the 200 h&g molds or copys. Personally i wouldnt go the 300 grain route. I dont think its necessary and i feel it would eventually beat up a nice 1911. Bottom line is any of the bullets mentioned above pushed to 700fps or better will kill any deer that you stick one in the boiler room and in my opinion would do just fine on black bear too. Ive seen wild boar killed with a lyman 200 and it did just fine. As a matter of fact the day it was used i witnessed two dismal failures of jhps on pigs one a 41 mag and the other a .357. The acp punched a hole clear through behind the shoulders pig took two leaps and piled up .

[Mikey]

Lloyd:  would you know if anyone commercially cast out either the 220 gn slug or the 230 gn rcbs bullet.  Would either be for sale from some of the bullet makers, that you know of??  Thanks.  Mikey.

[Mikey]

44 Man - thanks.  Mikey.

[Questor]

Mikey:
Try Magnus http://www.magnusbullets.com/catalog.htm See the 225 flat nose 45 #803. I've mail ordered from them before and the package was damaged on arrival. If you phone in an order be sure to question how the bullets are packaged. I assume it's .452


Although in keeping with the heavy bullet concept, I noticed that National has a 250 grain .452 and 300 grainers too

http://nationalbullet.com/cgi-bin/VirtualCatalog/CatalogMgr.pl?offset=25&cartID=b-2473&PreviousOffset=1&DisplayNumber=12&SearchFor=45BULLETS&NextOffset=25&MatchCount=34&SearchField=category&template=Htx/45.htx

http://nationalbullet.com/cgi-bin/VirtualCatalog/CatalogMgr.pl?offset=13&cartID=b-2473&PreviousOffset=1&DisplayNumber=12&SearchFor=45BULLETS&NextOffset=13&MatchCount=34&SearchField=category&template=Htx/45.htx

[Questor]

Alliant has several loads for 260 grain 45acp:

Minimum OAL
(inches) Bbl Length Primer Powder Charge Weight
(grains) Velocity
(fps) Chamber Pressure
(psi) Print
1.21 5 Fed. 150 Bullseye 4.5 725 19,400 Print this recipe
1.21 5 Fed. 150 Unique 5.4 760 19,400 Print this recipe
1.21 5 Fed. 150 Herco 5.9 750 18,600 Print this recipe
1.21 5 Fed. 150 Blue Dot 8.3 780 19,000 Print this recipe

[Lloyd Smale]

none i know of off hand mike

Lloyd:  would you know if anyone commercially cast out either the 220 gn slug or the 230 gn rcbs bullet.  Would either be for sale from some of the bullet makers, that you know of??  Thanks.  Mikey.

[Cottonwood]

I like the idea that National has 25 bullet sample packs of either mixed or matched for $5.00 with free shipping..  However I don't like their 500 ct price on their bullets.  I can get 1000 ct box at http://northeastbullet.com/shop.htm for much less. 

Either way these look like good bullets to try.

[Dee]

Dee,
Although an arrow may only be traveling at 300fps or so, it's much heavier weight insures plenty of penetration at reasonable ranges. Different type of wound channel, the bullet tends to crush tissue, while the broadhead lacerates. Either one will do the job!
Cheers,
Savage

I think that's what I said. Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough.

[jrfrmn]

Has any one used a 1911/45acp successfully for deer?

I say if you hit a big buck with that thing
 he would either turn you into a carving post with his antlers or either eat you.
  I'm not sure wich one first.

[zipperzap]

A friend of mine did once in Colorado. I forget the details but I do recall him saying it was a @#@@$ fool thing to do and he was lucky
it turned out as well as it did. I doubt I'd ever try it, myself, unless it was a survival situation. I used to carry one in my plane under the seat until I realized how utterly stupid it was for a survival gun ... unless I set her down in the Bronx!

[ccoker]

Federal HST is some wicked stuff
http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/Pierce%20County%20Workshop.pdf

[Echo4Lima]

Hand loaded a .451 250 grain JFP for my cousins 1911.  Took awhile to get down range but BAM what a smack on those Blacktails!!

Gotta make sure its a .451 and not a .452 bullet.  I have 5 deer with a Colt Delta Elite 1911 in 10MM.  Niiiiice!