Author Topic: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design  (Read 15261 times)

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Offline garyD

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design
« on: February 10, 2006, 09:18:12 AM »
Hello folks;

I'm laying out the design of a soda can mortar and have put up a copy of the tube drawing for comments.  

http://brooksiderod.tripod.com/pdf/scm.pdf

Would ya'll take a look and advise if any significant blunders exist.  I am not entirely sure of the proper size of the powder chamber so would apprecate your feed back.  Tube will be turned from steel.  Trunion bolted on.  

Gary

Offline GGaskill

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2006, 09:56:37 AM »
An interesting mix of fractional and decimal dimensions.  (-:

Powder chamber seems a little small; I would go 1x1 or 1dia x 1.25dp.  Otherwise OK.

Where are the bolts going?
GG
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Offline garyD

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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2006, 10:37:33 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  I have revised the sketch with a larger powder chamber.  The bolt will hold on the trunion bar.  Threaded on axis of the tube.  Fixed the dimensioning too.

Gary

Offline GGaskill

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2006, 10:41:34 AM »
Suggest using two bolts as far apart as possible.  Putting one on center will make a thin point  between the bottom of the chamber and the top of the bolt hole.

Could also make the bore deeper (an inch easily.)
GG
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Offline CU_Cannon

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2006, 03:29:45 PM »
Not a bad design.  Here is the link to my designs.  I can also send you cad drawings if you would like.

Cannon and Mortar Plans

The bear can mortar is scaled directly from ordinance drawings of the 24 pdr.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2006, 03:35:46 PM »
Gary -

I had CNC built about 10 mortars very similar to what you've drawn a few years back from 4140.  From that experience, are my thoughts.

The 1x1 powder chamber is OK, but a little larger is more usefull.

By (as George mentioned) using 2 bolts as far apart (which I did on mine) you can put the powder chamber further back.

Make the barrel a little longer on the inside, lengthen the tube if you have to.  A lot of folks want to do more into the range it gives you over just one beer-can-tall depth.

Good rounding on the inside corners.

Do a fillet or round on all the outside corners too - it greatly improves the looks!  I did that on the last run of golf-ball mortars I made and they look MUCH better just because of that touch.

Send me your email (in a PM) & I'll send a scan of the drawings as-made that I did.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2006, 03:41:21 PM »
CU -

I wish I'd had the foresight to make mine according to the form of the 24 pounder -  there are some advantages to having it histerically correct!
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Kuntrykouple

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2006, 05:16:16 PM »
It looks fine i am in agreement with the poweder camber being enlarged. but i would prolly Move the center ring up about an inch or so to place it more over the powder chamber and where your load will be where it is going to give it added strength

Quote
Exterior Form .-- Cannons are in general of a truncated conical form, with a cylindrical opening along the axis to a certain depth. The strongest part surrounds the seat of the charge
 Chapter 2 of the Artillerist Manual
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Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2006, 05:19:07 PM »
On the Federal 24 pdr coehorn there is a shoulder on the breech end that ties into the trunnion.  They are a real pain to do.  Does anyone do them?  One of the purposes of this part was to cut an angle in the block mount inlet for this part to rest on providing the 45 degree angle.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Kuntrykouple

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 05:29:39 PM »
Quote
Does anyone do them?


I don't and i have conteplated the idea of trying to reproduce them  but i think  it would take  considerable more time than its worth in  just setting up the mill with the rotary table and the amount of  cuts  needed to make the curve and tolerances would have to be pretty close to make it look good
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Offline GGaskill

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2006, 05:52:14 PM »
I've done them (rimbases) on the ones I have cast but it is difficult to do them on a machined tube.  I welded them on my beercan mortar but they really should be flush at the top.  One could fill in the space between the rimbase and the barrel with epoxy filler to make them look solid.



1.5" bronze Coehorn




Beer can mortar
GG
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Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2006, 04:47:10 AM »
Looks good to me.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Powder keg

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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2006, 05:02:57 AM »
I like it!!! Make sure you show us some construction picts, if you can.

Later, Wes
Wesley P.
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Custom Machine work done reasonable. I have a small machine shop and foundry. Please let me build your stuff. I just added Metal etching to my capabilities. I specialize in custom jobs.
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Offline Double D

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2006, 06:36:33 AM »
Forget the bolt on trunnion weld it! It's stronger and save having to weld later when you break one of th ose bolts off.

Offline GGaskill

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2006, 07:02:07 AM »
Make sure you show us some construction picts, if you can.

:-)  The beercan mortar was done many years ago, long before GraybeardOutdoors and digital cameras.  Furthermore, it is not done the best way.  But I will speculate some on how to do it better.

The cast one is obviously done by putting the feature on the pattern.  The fabricated one could be done better by milling flats on the sides where the rimbases should go such that the flat is deep enough for the rimbase to be flush in the middle but proud of the surface at the corners.  That was the plan on the golf ball mortar shown below; you can see how little material is removed from a properly shaped Coehorn breech.  The trunnion end of the rimbase is simply cut away using an end mill or a fly cutter to the appropriate length and diameter.  Then weld in place.  I would put a short bead in both top side corners (leave the top free of weld for best appearance) and a full (but small) bead between the trunnion and bottom of the rimbase.  Then mix some epoxy and a filler and fill the voids behind.  Paint covers all.



Regarding attaching the trunnion, if you CAN weld, I would prefer welding to bolting.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CU_Cannon

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 07:23:56 AM »
I am planning on doing that on my 12 pdr.  I makes it look more authentic.  IÂ’ll post some pictures when I get to that point.

Offline garyD

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sodacan mortar
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2006, 03:25:18 PM »
Thanks for all the replys guys.  It's appreciated.  As I get into making chips, I'll post pics.

Gary

Offline garyD

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sodacan mortar
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2006, 03:43:47 AM »
Good morning Guys;

FYI latest drawing revision is up.

http://brooksiderod.tripod.com/pdf/scm.pdf

Thanks again to all who offered comments.

Gary

Offline Double D

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2006, 04:18:38 AM »
Forget the bolt and weld that trunnion on.  Bolt is a weak point.  Your trunnion is going to be bear all the weight of the tube and the force of the recoil.  Drilling two holes through the trunnion bar weakens it. To much chance of  breaking.

Plus under force of recoil you are going to be placing a lot strees on the bolts.  If you break one you won't  might not notice it until the secoond one breaks.

Back to the moving van...

Offline garyD

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Sodacan Mortar
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2006, 04:47:53 AM »
Looks like the jury is in.  I can mig the trunion on.  After welding I'll dress it some with a acorn bit.  No need to stress relieve, right?

Gary

Offline GGaskill

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2006, 07:00:52 AM »
Since you are still in the revision stage of design, you might consider CU_Cannon's Coehorn drawing (see below.)  Seems like people aren't really concerned about making accurate models at first but later on they wish they had.  But forget the bolts.  Click the image for a full size version.

[img width= height=]http://www.geocities.com/cu_cannon/beer-can-coehorn/beer-can-drawing-1.jpg[/img]
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2006, 01:35:09 PM »
Quote from: GGaskill

....
 Seems like people aren't really concerned about making accurate models at first but later on they wish they had.  
....


Let me just add, seems like people aren't really concerned about making accurate models at first but later on they wish they had.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline CU_Cannon

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2006, 03:37:58 PM »
I went with bolts because the steel used is 4150.  Every thing I found said that it was hard to weld.   I had enough work in it that I didn't want to experiment.

Offline GGaskill

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Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2006, 04:04:54 PM »
A good reason for bolts.  Here is a 4.5" scaled version (52%) of a Federal bronze Coehorn.  You might want to reduce the bore and chamber size (don't run the chamber so deep) for whatever projectile you intend to use. The taper is 13 degrees included angle.



Click for a larger version.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2010, 07:31:59 PM »
An interesting mix of fractional and decimal dimensions.  (-:

Powder chamber seems a little small; I would go 1x1 or 1dia x 1.25dp.  Otherwise OK.

Where are the bolts going?

GG,
Do you still agree with the 1'' X 1.25'' as the ideal powder chamber dimensions for a pop can mortar?
What would you consider the best length for the bore (from the muzzle face to the front of the powder chamber? I'm specifically thinking of a CSA type coehorn, if that makes a difference.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2010, 08:00:25 PM »
I make beer can Coehorns from 4" diameter stock and bore to a depth of 3 7/8".  Since this is about 3/4" shorter than a 12 oz can, I use the shorter 7 oz cans, which actually fly better since they are closer to spherical than the 12's are.  Truly spherical shot work even better.


The powder chamber size depends on the material you use for projectiles and the kind of range you are looking for.  I find that concrete filled cans will break up at launch if you use too much powder.  This would  not be true if you were to use steel or cast iron shot.  I would stay away from lead shot in this diameter in a Coehorn style mortar.  If you made a seacoast mortar with its thicker walls, lead shot would not worry me. 

My beer can mortar is proportioned like a seacoast mortar even though it has a sort of Coehorn appearance.  It was my first artillery piece and made from photos instead of plans.  It was made from 6" stock which makes it very heavy (getting heavier every year) but it is quite stout and I will shoot any reasonable projectile from it.  Its bore length is more like 2 cans long (about three and a half calibers) which gives it greater range than a Coehorn of the same bore.  At the Montana shoot, it launched a zinc round shot out of sight on about 250 grains of Fg.


So I can't really answer your question definitively.  A long narrow chamber deals with light charges better than a wide one but a wide one allows heavier charges without making the rear wall too thin.  Compromises, compromises.  You need to decide what your operational requirements are first.
GG
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--Winston Churchill

Offline dominick

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Re: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2010, 09:12:41 AM »
Boom,  it depends on what kind of range you are looking to get out of it.  Here's a link  range tests on a soda can mortar I built a few years back.  It has a 2.63" bore and I think a size can sits about a 1/2" below the rim of the muzzle at 5.5" deep.  The powder chamber is 1" diameter X 1.25" deep.  Dom   http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,158308.0.html

Offline Double D

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Re: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2010, 09:34:46 AM »
I believe Gibbons has some discussion on chamber shapes and the advantages of each.
 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2010, 12:26:44 PM »
GG, Dom and DD, thanks. That was a good thread, Dom, useful information, and I didn't recall it till I reviewed it. Anyone else that has any other ideas on pop can bore mortars, I'd appreciate your input. Does anybody have any features on their mortars they'd like to change, or sing the praises of?

Gary -
I had CNC built about 10 mortars very similar to what you've drawn a few years back from 4140.  From that experience, are my thoughts.
The 1x1 powder chamber is OK, but a little larger is more usefull.
By (as George mentioned) using 2 bolts as far apart (which I did on mine) you can put the powder chamber further back.
Make the barrel a little longer on the inside, lengthen the tube if you have to.  A lot of folks want to do more into the range it gives you over just one beer-can-tall depth.
Good rounding on the inside corners.
Do a fillet or round on all the outside corners too - it greatly improves the looks!  I did that on the last run of golf-ball mortars I made and they look MUCH better just because of that touch.
Send me your email (in a PM) & I'll send a scan of the drawings as-made that I did.

CU -
I wish I'd had the foresight to make mine according to the form of the 24 pounder -  there are some advantages to having it histerically correct!

Tim,
Do you still agree with these statements, or have you changed your opinion on any of them?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Planning a sodacan mortar seeking comments on my tube design
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2010, 01:40:03 PM »
Boom J -  I don't think I'd change anything. 
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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