Author Topic: Someone has bitten and just may read this (Read 2601 times)

realidahorock · « **on:** February 10, 2006, 08:36:57 PM »

Hwdy-Thanks for putting up with me and my dang 356-358 obsession. I know thier are a few converted marlin rifles out there in 358 caliber and it's no big deal when good gunsmithing and handloading practices are followed. I'm just trying everywhere to see just who has done it for information. I'll just keep my ears open now and hope someone speaks out. That knows what they say :wink: realidahorock

mt3030 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2006, 01:51:22 PM »

To 356 maybe, never to 358. Pressure, pressure, pressure. If you want a 358 lever, step up to a Browning BLR, Savage 99, or Winchester 88.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2006, 11:47:19 PM »

I think Dave Clements will covert them to 358 from what ive heard the marlins can take the pressure and its not alot more then the .356

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2006, 06:28:37 AM »

From what I've heard Dave is a very reputable gunsmith. But for the life of me I cannot imagine a reputable gunsmith doing a conversion in which factory ammo might be dangerous as is clearly the case here. So why would he accept the liability? Sooner or later the gun will find its way into the hands of someone who knows no better and he will load it and fire it with factory ammo.

Then we'll find out if all the precautions about not using pointed bullets in tube magazines is real or bogus. Can you say kaboom?

fknipfer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:51:45 PM »

Realidahorock,

If I was as bitten by a .356 or .358 why don't you just by a BLR Browning in .358. Me myself if I was going to get a BLR Browning I would choose a 30-06 and shoot 220grs. You are going from a flat nose bulled to a pointed rounds and the difference is significant. Although in a BLR you wouldn't have to use flat or round nose bullets.

.358 Winchester 200 Silvertip
MV ME 100yds 200yds 300yds 400yds
2490/2753 2171/2093 1876/1563 1610/1151 1379/844

30-06 Federal 220 Sierra Pro Hunt
MV ME 100yds 200yds 300yds 400yds
2410/2835 2130/2215 1870/1705 1630/1300 1420/979

Almost look like they are twins, but the .358 just doesn't quite catch up at factory loadings. With a Blr you still have a lever action and a hell of a hunting rifle. The most popular gun in Africa and Alaska is the 30-06 and you know what you can get ammo anywhere.
Thats my humble opinion,
fknipfer

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2006, 11:38:49 PM »

Bill ive been told by reputable people that the big bore winchesters and the marlins are more then capable of taking 50000 psi plus loads. I guess i really dont know what they accomplish though. A .356 will kill anything a .358 will anyway. Other then the ease of getting brass i dont see a need for it.

Quote from: Graybeard

From what I've heard Dave is a very reputable gunsmith. But for the life of me I cannot imagine a reputable gunsmith doing a conversion in which factory ammo might be dangerous as is clearly the case here. So why would he accept the liability? Sooner or later the gun will find its way into the hands of someone who knows no better and he will load it and fire it with factory ammo.

Then we'll find out if all the precautions about not using pointed bullets in tube magazines is real or bogus. Can you say kaboom?

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2006, 08:09:57 AM »

Lloyd what does that have to do with the use of pointed nose bullets in tube magazines? That is what I said in case you failed to notice. Pretty much 100% of the ammo for the .358 Win. has bullets generally considered unsafe for use in tube magazines.

So either that theory is false (an idea I kinda suspect to be true really) or chambering a gun to the round in a tube magazine rifle is seriously insane.

pastorp · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2006, 10:45:07 AM »

Lloyd, I thought the marlin levers were designed at 40,000 psi not 50,000. Regards, Byron

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2006, 12:34:41 PM »

Because this discussion even exists proves that there is doubt as to the safety of such a conversion. By the time you find a blacksmith to do the work, invest in the reamers and labor to create an oddity that cannot be resold in good consious, you would have nearly the investment of a new, safe BLR. Sell the Marlin, buy the BLR and it will be a break even deal. RE: the 30-06 BLR over the .358 BLR, the long action models handle very differently from the short actions and are not nearly as lively and responsive.

mt3030 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2006, 05:02:49 AM »

Must agree with Blackhawk44. I own three of the short actions (257/308/358), and the long actions do feel totally different in the hands or on the shoulder. But, if I had gotten started with the long actions first, maybe my preference would be to them and not the short actions. But I doubt it.

Wally

star1 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2007, 10:10:58 AM »

sorry. I did not read the "start new topic" note before I posted here. I wonder about this? Marlin makes the 375, 356, and 307 all which have working pressures around 55,000psi. So I guess the pressure concern is not one to bother with when considering a 358 Marlin. Graybeard does bring up a concern with using pointy bullets in a tubular magazine. Anyway you look at that that's bad news. However, I wonder if Marlin and Hornady might get together with their gummy pointed bullets to overcome this store bought ammo problem. I really can't see any reason for the 358 in a Marlin lever for myself but the gunsmiths who do produce these must be in contact with Hornady and the gummy bullets. I would hope that Hornady begins to sell these bullets for handloading reasons. In some circumstances these pointy safe bullets might improve ballistics enough to make a difference. How does the 307 and ME308 stack up in ballistics? star1

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** April 20, 2007, 04:48:30 AM »

THE .307 WIN. AND THE 308 WIN USE THE SAME DIES AND ARE THE SAME EXCEPT RIM , TO KEEP PROPER BULLETS IN THE CORRECT MAG. SO NUFF SAID BOUT POINTS AND TUBES !
THE 356 WIN GETS AROUND 2100-2200FT/S , THE 358 GETS2000-2200 FT/S BOTH WITH 200 GR BULLETS . tHE 348 WIN. GETS2300-2400 FT/S WITH 200 GR. BULLETS AT UNDER 30800 CUP THE 358 IS OVER 31500 CUP AND UNDER 45400 CUP , THE 356 PRESURE IS NOT LISTED . ALL DATA IS SHOWN ON HODGDON'S SITE !
I REALIZE THERE IS A .01 DIA. DIFFERENCE , BUT SPEED IS A LITTLE HIGHER MAYBE THEY CANCEL OUT ?
YA MIGHT WANT CONSIDER NECKING A 348 WIN. UP TO 358 OR USING 348 WIN. AS IS JUST AN IDEA GOOD LUCK !

BigJakeJ1s · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2007, 04:11:33 PM »

Not sure where SHOOTALL got his data, but all of the following data is for 200 gr bullets from Hodgdon's website just now.

With Hodgdon data for Hodgdon powders, 358 win gets 2484-2527 fps and pressures from 41.8 to 50 Kcup. (SAAMI max is 52 Kcup).

With IMR data for IMR powders, 358 win gets 2170-2630 fps and pressures from 46.2 to 52 Kcup.

With Win data for Win powders, there is one load at 2500 fps and 50 Kcup.

With Hodgdon data for Hodgdon powders, 356 win gets 2243-2283 with no pressures given (SAAMI max is 52 Kcup).

With Hodgdon data for Hodgdon powders, 348 win gets 2467-2630 fps and pressures from 31.6-35.9 Kcup (SAAMI max is 40 Kcup).

The 348 holds more powder but allows less pressure than 358, and practically no bullet choice.

Andy

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2007, 11:40:25 PM »

Bill i guess they figure that anyone that has gone through the expense of having one converted would be knowlegable enough to only run round nosed ammo in it. Action strength isnt a big consern as both the marlin and the win big bore are loaded to those levels allready. Now i doubt if i would want to run 50000 psi loads through either of them on a steady bassis. I have no doubt they wouldnt blow up but i would have to think that after thousands of rounds of high pressure ammo either would show signs of wear. As to the pointed nose bullet thing and the custom gunsmiths. Ill go a couple ways here. About 99 percent of the people having customs built are more knowlegable then the average gun guy and know what there having built and its limitations. I have a single six in 41 special. Galagher built it for me but not before feeling me out over the phone to see if i was a knowlegable reloader. My buddy has a smith L frame made into a 41 special and it will take loads that will turn the single six into a gernade! I just had a 475 linebaugh built on a 94 marlin and though it was proffed with some pretty hot loads i was told to keep it at about 45000 psi if i wanted it to last as the threaded end of the barrel ends up pretty thin on these and would probably crack if abused. Another example is the 480 dustin linebaugh is building me on a redhawk this will be a 6 shot gun and factory ammo would be pushing thie thinner cyl past what i would feel safe with. This gun will be loaded to 1000 fps with 400 grain bullets. Plenty for any aniimal but a guy has to know its limit. dustin will not build one for the general public but knows i have enough sense to not push it. Frank from mt baldy bullets has a 6 shot 475 bisley that John built. Same thing applys there.Back to the marlin pointy bullet deal. Ive talked to a couple gunsmiths about building me a 250 savage on a 336 marlin. It would combine my favorite rifle caliber with a favorite rifle. It could be done and theres a couple guys out there that would build it for me. Now there again a guy would have to be very selective about the bullets he used. My thoughts for it were to load pointy bullets but use it as a 2 shot gun. Personaly in all the hunting ive done ive never shot more then one follow up shot on a game animal anyway. What a guy has to be careful with with this type of work is that if something were to happen to him and the guns got passed down to someone that didnt have the knowlege it could spell trouble. Thats why these guns are all proffed with factory loads. Ive also wrote a letter explaining these guns and there limits and gave a copy to my father and my best freind in case of such an occurance.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2007, 04:07:58 AM »

got the imfo. off the hodgdon site guess it depends which bullet ya pick , and the bullet selection , guess ya didn't finish the part about necking the .348 case up .358 , at any rate i was not trying to upset anyone just an idea on a nice case !

BigJakeJ1s · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2007, 02:14:17 PM »

Shootall,

My apologies. After reading my response a day later, it does read like I was bustin' your chops. Sorry, that was not my intention. It just looked like your data, at least for 358 win, was a little slow.

Boring out a 348 to a 358 would be an interesting idea. So long as you stayed away from pointy bullets, and kept loads to 348 pressures, since you'd have to keep the 348 brass and neck it up. Even so, same pressure and bullet weight, with a bigger diameter gets you a faster bullet.

Andy

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2007, 01:59:49 AM »

BigJakeJ1s , thanks !
hey do ya know of anyone who has necked a 30/30 case down to .25 ?

Anduril · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2007, 08:53:03 AM »

methinks a 30/30 necked down to .25 is a 25/35
..

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:48:49 AM »

the 25/35 ackerly improved is an interesting round in a lever. That what Rob Applegate suggested to me instead of a 250 savage. A guy could get about the same power level and not have to alter the bolt face.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2007, 02:10:57 AM »

Thanks , i have seen 25/20's but not a 25/35 something to check out ! were they smokeless or black powder ?

S.S. · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2007, 04:20:54 AM »

The 25-35 was a smokeless round .
I have a box in my collection that Is close to the original production
date for this round and the strange thing is that they are Full Metal Jacket
flat points ! I like the .25-35 and would love to have a Handi-rifle Barrel for it.
I found a much later cartridge that still had the 117 grain FMJ-FP so it must have been popular for some reason.. Wouldn't ruin much meat I guess if you didn't mind tracking.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2007, 09:27:14 AM »

Thanks !

Oldtimer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:51:35 PM »

I have been told that the .25-35 was popular for shooting fish, which is legal in some areas of southwest Virginia. I think the FMJ would be a good round for that purpose. Also, I read that the Eskimos liked the FMJ versions for seal hunting, as it did not tear up the hides.