Author Topic: Watch Jimmy Houston shoot a penned deer (Read 4791 times)

peakoftherut · « **on:** February 11, 2006, 05:33:37 PM »

I ran across this on another site. It shows Jimmy hunting in a 5 acre pen over bait. This site has a lot of other unethical stuff people have been up to. It's disgusting to watch but I think people should know what's going on with some of these so called expert sportsman. It seems given enough time all these guys get busted doing something. I know they are under pressure to produce but that's no excuse.

http://real-hunters.com/bellar-trial-video.cfm

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2006, 01:52:16 AM »

I do not like a pinned shooting at all, but I don't think pinned shooting and a 2000 acre fence hunt can be compared. I would never do a pinned shoot. This is a very touchy subject and I hope people do not make this thread get closed by getting ugly.

peakoftherut · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2006, 09:36:22 AM »

but I don't think pinned shooting and a 2000 acre fence hunt can be compared.

I don't either, but if you were to look at the tape that's not what he is doing. It's a large ranch that would allow fair chase hunts, but he is in a small fenced in area inside a large fenced in area. I have tried to bring this to other peoples attention so we can put this guy out of bussiness. Then maybe the other so called experts will learn it's not worth shooting deer at night, out of season, over bait etc...

You would like to see this thread closed. That's probably a good idea, we can just pretend stuff like this doesn't happen. I mean we shouldn't police our sport. I'm sure PETA and other groups like that will never find this stuff and use it against us. Then we can all be happy giving meaningless answers to subjective questions like " what's the best caliber for deer " or " what's the best deer rifle "[/quote]

John · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2006, 10:31:55 AM »

Seems that the hunt that Jimmy went on was in Indiana, and the place is owned by a fella named Bellar. Some country singer also went on a Bellar hunt and had to testify in court about the going ons at the place, I think it was one of the Brooks and Dunn fellas.

The game farms ( canned hunt, high fence) in Indiana were to follow the same regulations as the free range hunters of the state, but seems Bellar allowed his hunters to use weapons that weren't allowed by the state, he didn't hunt in season, he allowed his hunters to kill however many animals thay could pay for, and there was a problem with the meat being contaminated with tranquilizer.

If memory serves me correctly, and it's been several days since I checked all this out, there was also some fraud in the videos that were made for advertising.

Now all the above should probably be stated as alleged as there is a possibility that I might have been in error on some of it, and I don't know just what the courts of Indiana have done with the charges.

All that said, here's what I think. If the deer are owned by the property owner, and I know that many are, and no laws are broken on the high fence areas, then I don't figure what they do is any of my business. They can load a buck in a stock trailer and drive it to the great white hunter and let him kill it in the trailer. It's their deer, it's their property. Just think of the deer as livestock like cattle and hogs, they were raised in a pen, they are killed in a pen.

Many of the canned hunt operaters pay thousands of dollars for trophy deer, they manage them like a good cattle rancher would manage his herd, and if somebody is willing to pay twenty grand to kill a buck in a pen, so be it. It's private property, it's business.

Like it or not, I think we're going to see more and more of it.

I agree that it's not hunting in some cases, but then again, there are high fence areas that are large enough and have enough cover that it probably could compare to a "real" hunt.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2006, 01:27:08 PM »

Quote from: peakoftherut

but I don't think pinned shooting and a 2000 acre fence hunt can be compared.

I don't either, but if you were to look at the tape that's not what he is doing. It's a large ranch that would allow fair chase hunts, but he is in a small fenced in area inside a large fenced in area. I have tried to bring this to other peoples attention so we can put this guy out of bussiness. Then maybe the other so called experts will learn it's not worth shooting deer at night, out of season, over bait etc...

You would like to see this thread closed. That's probably a good idea, we can just pretend stuff like this doesn't happen. I mean we shouldn't police our sport. I'm sure PETA and other groups like that will never find this stuff and use it against us. Then we can all be happy giving meaningless answers to subjective questions like " what's the best caliber for deer " or " what's the best deer rifle "

[/quote]

No I do not want this thread to be closed, I just hope it does not get ugly. Like I said before, it is a touchy subject.

dukkillr · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2006, 03:23:37 PM »

it's not hunting, and it has the potential to ruin the sport for all of us... real sportsmen should be unanimous in their outrage against this type of slaughter...

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2006, 03:27:33 PM »

There is a guy who advertizes hog hunts in the paper, Sounded like fun so I called and Inquired about them.
The guy turns a hog loose in a fenced in 3 acre lot :x I told the guy that he can shoot his own dang hogs and hung up.
INMO This is the most debased form of "hunting" and particapiting in such activity only reflects badly apoun the character of the individual.

WylieKy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:28:24 AM »

I agree with John. If it's not illegal, it's legal. It's legal to hunt a whitetail in SC with a 458 Lott. I'm not going to do it, but it's going to be my choice. Apparently what they were doing was on the black side of gray and it looks like they are going to pay for it...and they deserve it. However, some people find themselves with more money than time and choose to pay someone to manage the land, scout the area, and hang the stand. I was in a situation that I had to choose between not hunting, hunting public areas where the hunter/acre doubles the deer/acre, lucking into a lease, or going to a "ranch." I lucked into a lease of 500 acres with 6 other gentlemen. If I hadn't, I would have gone to the ranch and been thankful for the time outdoors I was granted, although I would not have chose to hunt a pen, assumeing they had one. I do not like to see deer kept in those conditions, therefore I will no longer watch Jimmy Houston. I will consider not buying the products he endorses, or better yet, write his sponcers and inform them of my displeasure. But for God's sake, keep "policing" and government interference out of it and leave it up to the discretion of the hunter.

dukkillr · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:55:58 AM »

if the community of hunters doesn't police themselves someone else will... that's why i find these things so disgusting... not because i care what someone does with a penned deer... it's because i fear it could harm the reputation of real hunting

WylieKy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2006, 07:34:40 AM »

How does one police oneself? I understand and appreciate what you are saying. If we don't watch ourselves, PETA will do it for us. The problem is that there is no recourse if it's not illegal. There is no way for me to see John Doe Hunter do somthing stupid or unethical and do somthing about it. Do I send him a nasty letter? Do I yell at him in the parking lot at Wal-Mart? No. And I don't want a law telling him to not do that stupid or unethical thing because that is exactly how PETA will erode our hunting and shooting rights. Answer this. How big is a "pen". 100 yrd sq, 2 acres, 2000 acres? Once ther e is legislation on it, it will NEVER go away. The only thing that we as hunters can do is make good choices about how we hunt, and give no patronage to those that sponsor or offer the "services" in question. If there is no money in it, it will not be offered.

Apparently, they are listening to our concerns, and there are two sides to every story. See http://www.mothwingcamo.com/jimmy_response.php

elmer · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2006, 07:45:51 AM »

Shooting anything in a 5 acre pen isn't hunting by my definition, if it's legal then it isn't my business.

When I looked up the domain registration for real-hunters.com and found that the domain name is owned by National Wildlife Federation it lost some credibility in my view. The nwf.org site leans heavily to anti-hunting and real-hunters.com seems to want to have a restrictive definition of hunting that would not allow you to kill things like coyotes unless they were attacking your livestock. Since I don't own livestock then I could not hunt coyotes.

I have a REAL problem with someone trying impose their definition of hunting on me.

I have hunting on a 4500 acre low fenced ranch and on a 1100 acre high fenced ranch. In either case most of the time I could not see the fence and the animals could eaisly evade me. You may not calling it hunting, but I do. Of course I am a 51 year old novice with bad joints.

Just my two cents worth, but this looks like a wolf in sheeps clothing to me.

John · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2006, 08:58:47 AM »

Yep, boys, Elmer is on the right track here. The tape was made by the Bellar ranch, and had to be entered as evidence in the trial. Somehow a group that was representing its self as a hunters group was able to obtain the tape, or a copy, and post it on the net.

In reality the group is closely affiliated with PETA, and this deal is meant to inflame fellow hunters. Lets not be fooled here. The anti's do not like what we do. They are against killing of any sort, fair chase or no. There's nothing we can do to appease them. Our sport, after all does include the killing of an animal, and those anti folks are against that in any way shape or form.

It's easy to jump on something that "we" might personally be against, but sometimes we need to understand that it is important to stand united against the anti's. Getting "us" to oppose one another like this is just what that tape and that group that posted it on the net are out to do.

Those folks don't want us to enjoy fried chicken either.

dukkillr · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2006, 09:22:34 AM »

right... and this type of thing is what gives them the ammunition they need to win people to their side... and that, of course, is why we need to be united against this... the response should be easy, and obvious...

"While we agree that everyone is entitled to enjoy their own legal recreation, we do not believe this type of behavior represents the sporting ethic of hunting and we as hunters will not acknowedge such pursuits in our organizations or record books."

If what they do is hunting then millions of cattle are hunted every year at slaughter houses.

dukkillr · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2006, 09:39:09 AM »

I made that last quote up myself but here are some from one of Jimmy's sponsors:

"Mothwing Camo Technologies, Inc. does not condone any activities or actions of Russell Bellar, and it is unfortunate that Jimmy Houston accepted an invitation to hunt on Mr. Bellar's property. "

"This incident took place in 2003 before Mr. Houston's became involved with Mothwing Camo, and, in fact, was wearing another brand camo in the film. Mothwing Camo will not condone or allow any member of its Prostaff to be involved in any hunt that uses questionable or illegal tactics willingly"

"Mr. Houston has publicly apologized for his involvement in a high fence hunting situation, without making any excuses. "

I couldn't find that apology but I only looked a few minutes... It's not readily apparent on his website...

Also here's a link from the US Fish and Wildlife service:
http://news.fws.gov/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=6909161E-1143-3066-40D5DC5FE47F5543

dukkillr · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2006, 10:25:37 AM »

Actually I found it, finally...

Here: http://jimmyhouston.com/community/index.php/topic,222.0.html

my favorite part:

Quote

Yes, had we known then what we know not, we would not have hunted there but that's why hindsight is 20-20. Was it wrong for me to hunt there? Absolutely!

John · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2006, 04:23:59 PM »

I read the apology, the way I read it, what Jimmy is apologizing for is getting involved with the Bellar fella. That guy was in trouble, or was to be in trouble, and that's what caused Jimmy his grief.

Bellar was not following the laws that he was to follow with his high fence operation, and because Jimmy hunted on his place, he was dragged through the crap because of the court case against Bellar, that and the video that was put on the net, which, by the way, seems to NOT be what it looks like.

If Jimmy had picked an operation that was properly and legally operated, his problem would not have come about. 20/20 hindsite indeed.

It also seems to me that the Feds stole Jimmy's deer meat. Hope they enjoy it.

I like ol' Jimmy, I've bought a couple of boats from him, and will not hesitate to do business with him in the future.

Maybe some folks have been too quick to jump to conclusions on this deal.

That's all I have to say on this matter.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:56:31 PM »

I think many of the hunting shows give a poor impression to the non-hunter. I just started hunting again about 2 years ago, after an almost 30 years hiatus.

I began watching the stuff on OLN and the Outdoor Channel, the biggest flaw seems to be they preach to the choir as it where. Most people do not hunt or use firearms and bows regularly, thus when they show 10 minutes of a guy, who often sounds inarticulate, sitting in a stand over a food plot, or a bear bait site the presentation comes of rather lame. Especially after the guy poses with the animal and tells of how thrilled he is, and it is a dream come true.

Very little time, if any, is spent explaining the need for wildlife management, to accommodate the developmental spread. I feel they would be better served if they spent some time reminding non-hunters, how many deer car collisions there are, or emphasis shrinking habitat due to urban development and the consequences of over animal population, and thus a need for culling.

Truth is few non-hunters will ever become hunters, but they can become allies if they see a benefit from the activities of hunters, instead of approaching it, as an us (hunters), against them (non-hunters).

Truth is there will always be some that are opposed to wildlife management in any form but they are a minority, as few will commit suicide so the animals can inherit the earth, but not explaining the benefits of hunting to a large percentage of people who do not understand how it directly benefits their interests, is in my opinion is a mistake.

As to canned hunts or shooting animals in small pens, I think it is lame. Since I started hunting again, I have found the time in the outdoors to be the reward, the meat is an added bonus. If hunting shows were presented in this light I think, the majority (non-hunters) would find it less objectionable and be less inclined to approve the growing restrictions against hunting.

Hunters today serve many functions, not only do we provide wildlife management, so as to accommodate urban growth, we also provide for maintenance of wildlife areas and are an economic source, that benefits both non-hunters and hunters alike It is a mistake not to emphasis and remind those who will never hunt, of these contributions.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

elmer · « **Reply #17 on:** February 14, 2006, 07:15:45 AM »

I try to make the points to non-hunters that:

1) Hunters and hunting organizations have put their money where their mouth is an does more real work to preserve game species than anyone else.

2) Even if the deer was shot in a 5 acre pen (which I am not convinced of) it had a better life and death than the chicken/cow/hog (pick one) they are buying in the grocery store after their paid assassin (borrowed from Ted) did the dirty work.

I also believe that trying to appease anti-hunters will work as well as trying to appease osama bin laden. If we do we will just keep retreating until we have no rights left. I don't rub their noses in it by publically displaying my kill so it's none of their business.

DavOh · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2006, 07:59:33 AM »

It is all relative and that is what is scary. because there can be no definitive line between high fence and "penned" as you guys are calling it.

IMO, Highfencing areas greater than say 5000 acres would not overly restrict whitetail movement. That's just my opinion.

In certain parts of the country a whitetail could live year round in a 500-1000 acre area and never leave. I've heard smaller numbers but I'll stick to that for now. But I know from reading research that in the hill country of Central Texas, a whitetail can range well over 2000 acres in a year. Even more when pressured by outside or unnatural reasons. That does bring to mind ethical questions in my mind about high fencing 200 acre ranches there. Unfortunately with land prices skyrocketing(the 1700 acre spread I hunt has jumped nearly 50% in the last 6-7 years), and the competition to produce MONSTER trophy whitetails in a region that is not naturally conducive(i'm speaking of central texas, not necessarily about south texas). I saw an ad for 100 acre, high fenced, "private hunting preserves. These "micro-ranches" as I call them are doing everything they can to Micro manage their deer herd. They view the deer as a commodity... an investment that must be protected and exploited. Rather than respected and revered as a natural resource, and gift from God. Untill hunters, en masse decide that it's not worth the exhorbitantly high sums these places are charging, to go out and get a "trophy" whitetail, These places will continue to thrive. One guy here said it already, we have to take away the demand.

HOWEVER. We must not allow the PETA-ites use this to divide ourselves. This must not let this become a divide and conquer situation. PETA has employed these tactics before. They will again. Just like the "gun safety" organizations are doing. How we do that I dont know.

I could segway into my speech about how imported goods are ruining America, cause it does sound strikingly similar. But I'll spare you guys.

dukkillr · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:08:44 AM »

Quote

In certain parts of the country a whitetail could live year round in a 500-1000 acre area and never leave.

I've heard the same... But if your deer are behind a fence you can hunt them differently... see it's not just about the size of the enclosure, it's also about knowing that you won't/can't scare them out of the area... Spot and Stalk with the wind? Sure, why not? Smoke in a stand? Sure, are they going to run onto a neighbors property?

I don't do deer drives because it disrupts the deer where I hunt. If those deer couldn't leave i wouldn't care.

This is just one aspect, there are others. I don't think this should divide hunters either, we should agree that some situations are not hunting, but rather killing. We should agree that calling some of these things hunting gives the ANTIs the ammunition they need... it's playing right into their hands...

Ranger J · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2006, 05:41:46 AM »

If you come right down to it, very few of the deer hunts that are shown on the different TV shows have anything in common with the concept of fair chase. In some large ranches white tailed deer are raised and tended just like say Black Angus cattle. How many of you deer hunters have the opportunity to turn down large buck after large buck because they arent a shooter that you want? In a real fair chase situation how many of you can pick and choose between hundreds of deer each day. In some of the shows you can see the mechanized feeders in the background when the hunter shoots the deer. I hunt a combination of private and public land in the Missouri Ozarks and on a given day I may see three or four deer and I might not see another deer for a week. This is a fair chase situation. There is nothing to artificially concentrate the deer in a given area. I would really like to see some of the big name hunters dumped in this kind of situation to check out their real skills. Shooting a pined up deer or one addicted to a food station and then beating your chest about it is just wrong. If you are going to do that why dont you just purchase a nice 600 LB steer or a 200 LB pig, take your favorite gun, shoot it and brag about that. You can even have the head mounted for your wall.
RJ

DavOh · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:17:57 AM »

Are you saying that I am any less of a hunter because we use the feeders???

Feeders and Penned hunts are in no way alike.

Ranger,

Just because there's a feeder somewhere near a stand has nothing to do with free chase. In an area where you're talking about, a hunter would apply the same technique. Locate and Identify food sources, identify deer travel routes and bedding areas, and ambush accordingly. The only difference in alot of these shows is that the hosts have someone else do all the scouting and such for them. In a location like the illinois wheremost of the hunting ground is agricultural type farmland, these tactics are EASY. Now in the Texas Hill country where there's a food source every 10-100 yds, it gets tricky because the deer don't necessarily run the same trail at the same time of every day. Do we use feeders on our place, Yes. Are the nicer deer taken over those feeders every year, no. Hunting is defined(in a somewhat krass manner) as filling your freezer with wild game. Are the deer any more addicted to the corn being thrown from the feeders than they are to the corn or soybeans growing in the fields in Illinois or Mo? In a naturally food rich environment like our in the hill country, (though it may be nutritionally poor, that's another subject), the feeders can be a useful tool to see more deer and ultimately make for a more successful trip.

Ranger J · « **Reply #22 on:** February 18, 2006, 06:19:04 AM »

I started to write this last night and three times I didnt push the send button. A question I ask is why do we hunt deer. Is it just to put a carcass on the ground? I like my venison and at an earlier time I confess that this was probably my main reason for hunting. At this earlier time if I didnt get a limit of quail or squirrels or whatever I was hunting, well the hunt was not a total success. Some things in the State of Missouri are illegal, such as spotlighting, road hunting, running deer with dogs and hunting over bait. I realize that in some other states some of these tactics are legal. Would I now use some of these tactics if they were legal in Missouri? The hills of the Ozarks have very little cropland in them. What land is cleared is usually used for cattle grazing. Our deer largely subsist on acorns and browse. Before I moved to Missouri I lived and hunted in Illinois. Things were simpler there. Much of the land was in crops but the successful hunters did not hunt the cropland as by the time of deer season most of the crops had been gathered. What you did hunt was the strips of brush and trees that lived in the creek bottoms and such. If you could find an area where this cover narrowed, this was where you put your stand, as sooner or later the deer would walk by. I would not be surprised if deer hunting in northern Missouri,above the Missouri River, is much the same. When I moved to the Ozarks I soon learned that my Illinois deer hunting skills didnt count for a lot. Much of the Ozarks consists of rolling hills covered completely with trees and brush. Most deer are taken under fifty yards. My problem was finding deer when it might be ten miles between roads and each hill and valley seemed to be just the same as the other. I soon learned that I might see three or four deer one day and not see another deer for a week. I had to learn over again how deer live and act in this habitat. If I am to be successful in what I call hunting I must be willing to spend time searching out the natural sources of food. I must look for the bedding areas and the crossing points. I must learn to be successful in the deers back yard. Yes, there are times when I come up empty but I still enjoy the hunt.
I am not trying to be combative but there are things that I have decided are not ethical for me. This is a decision each of us must make for ourselves. It is not the shooting of deer over bait if that is legal in your state that bothers me. What I was complaining about was the people who have hunting shows who blow into a location do none of their own work for a hunt, shoot a deer that they could probably walk up to and pet and then beat their chests about what a thrill it was to take such a magnificent animal. This has nothing to do with hunting, as most of us know it.
My wife has had some of the worst hunting luck in the world. For over ten years she has gone hunting with me several times a year and not even seen a deer. She has even compared deer hunting with me to snipe hunting. She jokingly accuses me of putting her in a stand on a cold morning and then secretly going back to the nice warm car. She has got so frustrated one time that I offered to buy her a hunt at one of the deer ranches not too far from us. She immediately said no, she wants to get her first deer on a real hunt. Only one of the reasons that I married the lady.
RJ

DavOh · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2006, 05:25:08 PM »

Ranger, I wasn't meaning to be combative. After re-reading my post I can see the connotations. I'm sorry for getting defensive.

I 100% agree with you about the "Managed Game Ranches", and the tv shows. I think I posted a big rant about the TV shows on a different site's forum. If I can find it, I'll copy and paste it hear sometime. I do have a hard time with the "ethicality"(if that's a word :wink: ) of the Game Ranches.

Oh and hang on tight, sounds like you gotta keeper there!

5Redman8 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2006, 10:36:56 AM »

It is kinda like the story of the woman who was asked if she would sleep with a man for a million dollars...her reply yes. Next question was would you sleep with a man for a dollar....her reply...no what kind of woman do you think I am. His reply, we have already established what kind of woman you are, now were are determining a price...

So I would say would you hunt on a ranch with 5,000 acre of high-fence.......then....would you hunt a 1 acre lot that was high-fenced......If yes to either, you have already said what kind of hunter you are.....now we are just setting the limit.

Kyle

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2006, 01:08:11 PM »

Quote from: 5Redman8

It is kinda like the story of the woman who was asked if she would sleep with a man for a million dollars...her reply yes. Next question was would you sleep with a man for a dollar....her reply...no what kind of woman do you think I am. His reply, we have already established what kind of woman you are, now were are determining a price...

So I would say would you hunt on a ranch with 5,000 acre of high-fence.......then....would you hunt a 1 acre lot that was high-fenced......If yes to either, you have already said what kind of hunter you are.....now we are just setting the limit.

Kyle

Big difference, and you are trying to impose your thinking on us. So just what kind of hunters are we that hunt on a ranch with 5,000 acre of high-fence?? If you can't defecate between a 5,000 acre of high-fence or a 1 acre lot that has a high-fenced, it is a sad thing. That is just your warped mind trying to pass judgement on others. I have never hunted in a pen, but I have hunted once on a ranch with 2,000 acre of high-fence. So I guess I fall into your hunter, that does not meet your approval. But I don't think I care if I meet your approval or not. I have never seen you pony up for any of my hunts and until then, you have no say in how I choose to hunt. I don't support shooting a tranquilized animal or shooting an animal in a pen. But judge me if you want.

WylieKy · « **Reply #26 on:** February 22, 2006, 01:58:09 PM »

If you walk through the woods with your nose in the air, you'll fall in the creek. I don't like the idea of hunting a "captive" deer. There are, however, many legitimate "high-fence" ranches that help out people without the time, or land to hunt traditionally. For 2 seasons I hunted a 10 acre area (not fenced) because I did not have the money for a lease and no vacation time so I could travel to decent public land (where the hunters don't outnumber the deer.) If I had not had that 10 acre plot, I would have gone to a ranch and done a doe hunt. Beats the hell out of not hunting. Also, some people want a chance at deer that they will never see on 95% of public land and that without spending day after day in the field. Some have a family to support. I am a meat hunter, but have no problem with people spending the money for that buck of a life time. As far as hunting shows go...It is entertainment, a fantasy, TV. They are like Baywatch. Just because you will never have a chance at a rack like that in real life, doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching it run across the screen, right?

I think at this junction in the history of our country, hunters do not have the luxury of snobbery. We need to band together in opposition to the "Anti's", not jumping people that like to hunt with crossbows, modern muzzleloaders, over food plots, etc...Just be glad they are hunting. If you don't like they way they hunt, don't do it. Easy as that.

All that being said, I think that hunting a deer that is drugged or pen raised is low, and if illegal, they should burn. I do not think that a majority of ranches participate in this, and I will never go to one that does.

5Redman8 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2006, 04:30:13 PM »

Guys, my previous post is just my opinion. Please let me have mine and you can have yours.

Kyle

dukkillr · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2006, 04:55:07 PM »

kyle you're not alone with that opinion, and I found your first post both funny and illuminating.

slave · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2006, 08:58:33 PM »

I only hunt by fair chase means. I know I could never enjoy a can hunt and I do not like the fact that some able body do this for profit.

But I can see a 13 year old make a wish child wanting to go hunting as well. If the fence had a gate large enough I would push the chair and him/her right on in.