Author Topic: Anyone Hand Load Self Defense Ammo? (Read 1293 times)

Mainer · « **on:** February 13, 2006, 03:09:44 PM »

Do any of you guys handload your own self defense ammo?

Some people preach against doing this. I think the argument that you increase your legal liability by doing so is BS (unless you're cooking up something really unusual). If you claim otherwise, cite the cases where it as been an issue.

For me, the motivation is finding the defensive load I want. For instance, does anyone sell a .44 Mag or 44 Spec. cartridge with a 225-240 gn bullet loaded to 830-1,000 fps?

KN · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2006, 03:48:38 PM »

That would be in the 44spl range for sure. That would probably be hard to find in a defensive round. I agree the liability issue is BS. But you'll have plenty that disagree, but can't find case law to suport it. The trouble with loading your own defensive round is that most of the defensive bullets are not sold to the public. Some are like Gold Dots, and Golden Sabers. But most of the bullet makers are not very generous with the good stuff like Hydrashocks, starfires, etc. Plenty of JHP stuff to choose from but not much of the premium stuff. KN

Steve P · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2006, 03:52:39 PM »

I have a 357 load that I call a triple shot. Three 55 grain hollow base .356 bullets stacked on top of each other. Makes a nice 2" triangle at 25 yards. Flatten on impact. Carry them in the 357 for a camp gun. Close at hand if needed at home. Doubtful they would exit the house. Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one.
I would shoot someone in a second if family member life at stake. If no gun, you would get to deal with 300 lbs of wildman!! :eek:

Steve

Mainer · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2006, 04:15:15 PM »

My problem is not with finding premium bullets for handloading defensive rounds, but finding the defensive rounds I want.

As I get older, I'm getting more conservative in my taste of handgun projectiles. I'm becoming a fan of fat, moderately heavy bullets, at a reasonable velocity, with reasonable recoil. I'm less inclined toward pop-gun 9mm and .38 Spec. rounds on the one hand or super fast, heavy recoil, massive-muzzle-blast magnum rounds on the other.

I'm also leaning toward revolver over semi-auto. Come to think of it, I'm becoming fond of single-action revolvers. Maybe I'm regressing in time a century or so. :wink:

ricciardelli · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2006, 06:58:22 PM »

All my centerfire ammo is home-grown, regardless of intended purpose.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 14, 2006, 12:38:45 AM »

I reload all my own round regardless if used for hunting or self defense. The last thing I would worry about is the round I used, if I had to use my gun in self defense.

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2006, 02:09:59 AM »

I'm in the same club with Steve Ricciardelli and Redhawk1. Mikey.

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2006, 05:29:10 AM »

I do not load for self defense purposes, however I reload most everything I shoot, so if it were to be used for defending myself, it would probably come from my bench.

Mauser · « **Reply #8 on:** February 14, 2006, 08:55:13 AM »

I think the liability issue over defensive use hand loads is overblown. While those of us who hand load think we are making our own ammo, the reality is that 99.9% of us are using bullets, cases, primers, and powder manufactured by a company in the business. Further we do it using a "recipe" called for by one of those companies in a manual. I just can't see that much difference between the loads I can make up with conventional components and factory loads in terms of performance--especially now that there are so many specialized factory loads out there from companies like Cor-bon, etc.

Cowpox · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2006, 01:20:06 AM »

I believe the concern with using handloaded ammunition for self defence is a bit overated. It probably has it's roots in a series of (I think it was GUNS) magazine articles, written by a gentleman whose name is Massad Ayoob, back in the 70s. He was a police detective in New York City, and had been present in court proceedings where exuberant prosecuting attoneys had caused things to go terribly wrong for people who had used deadly force in a self defense situation. As a result, he wrote a column called Ayoob For The Defense, in which he attempted to give advice on the dos, don'ts, and possible pitfalls pertaining to using guns for self defense. In one of his articles, he recomended not using handloads, because of an instance where a prosecuter had been successful getting charges upgraded to murder, and convinced the jury to render a guilty verdict, on the grounds the defendant had assembled his rounds for the express purpose of having them kill, instead of wound, whoever they contacted. Ayoob has gone on to produce books and vidios on firearm topics.

NE Hunter · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2006, 02:53:34 AM »

cowpox, thanks I knew I heard/read it somewhere but I couldn't for te life of me remember where

ricciardelli · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2006, 03:29:33 AM »

Massive Ayuboobtube started that nonsense many years ago.

As far as I know, NOONE has even been convicted of anything because they used home-grown ammo.

Questor · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2006, 05:03:01 AM »

Considering the options that are available commercially it should be easy to defend against such nonsense if it were to become an issue. Commercial ammo is available in all forms of frangible and even tracer forms. Can a handloader make anything more "dangerous" than that?

knight0334 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2006, 05:43:20 AM »

Use what you feel safest with. Use what you practice with. Use what you know.

The liability thing is overblown hogwash. If you shoot someone with a handload(legally), the chances of them being just as dead as if they were shot with a bullet from a Remington or Winchester box are the same.

Theres only one level of being dead, whether it was cause by a handload or factory load is really mute. Intentions behind the shooting is what must be concidered. Was it in self defence? Was it in legal defence of property? etc..

If by chance I had to use lethal force, I'd use what ever I'm comfortable with and what I have trained with.. .....my handloads.

And if some greed fueled idiot wants to sue me for something the law said I was in the "right", they'll have a hard time getting it out of me if they won. Property and possessions would get titled/deeded over to family and friends the moment I heard the slightest rumor of a lawsuit.

They themselves would be at the end of several countersuits for my mental and emotion trauma for having to shoot one of their family members LEGALLY. And against the dead's parents for dereliction of duty for not teaching their offspring right/wrong, thus resulting in my trauma. ...thats just to get started.

Swamp Yankee · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2006, 06:21:50 AM »

Yes, I have loaded a few rounds of Hornady 140gr. XTP's for my 357 other than that I shoot lead wad cutters [at 800 fps] all the time. chances are I couldn't get to the gun in time anyway because it's locked up in my safe. Mass state laws are very strict about things like that....Jim

rickyp · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2006, 06:48:10 AM »

as a Fire fighter I get to see a lot of things,
about 15 years ago I ran a shooting. It was an old man that shot a 20 something P.O.S. kid in the old man's front yard. the kid had been tormenting the old man for years, stealing and breaking in his home as well as beating him up. What the Kid did not know was the old man use to shoot skeet and loaded his own 12 ga shells. the old man keep telling the kid to leave him alone and would call the police on him nothing would be done to help the old man they told him he should move. (like and old man would have the money or energy to move). The old man got fed up with all this went to his basement and loaded up some buck shot loads in normal trap shells. one summer day the old man was in his front yard working when the P.O.S. kid came calling this time the kid got a load of buck shot to the chest killing him on the spot.
When The police did the investigation it took them a while to figure what was going on they had a shell labeled with shot but the kid was hit with buck shot. it confused them, now mind you this is about 1/2 mile out of Washington DC. once all said and done the old man went to jail and charged with making and possessing destructive rounds. I do not know the outcome of the mans trial but I doubt he got off. Talking with one of the police officers latter in the station I was told if he had used waht was labled on the shell the old man would ahve walked away.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:02:14 AM »

Isen't that the most idiotic rational imaginal? This is the sort of thing that breeds disrespect for the law.

rickyp · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2006, 09:24:38 AM »

I have to agree, but that is is Maryland for you

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2006, 10:58:05 AM »

Quote from: Cowpox

In one of his articles, he recomended not using handloads, because of an instance where a prosecuter had been successful getting charges upgraded to murder, and convinced the jury to render a guilty verdict, on the grounds the defendant had assembled his rounds for the express purpose of having them kill, instead of wound, whoever they contacted. Ayoob has gone on to produce books and vidios on firearm topics.

Sorry to say, but there has never been a civil or criminal case that hinged on an individual getting convicted or found negligent because he hand loaded his own ammo for self defense. That BS that Ayoob has been pushing is so he can keep his money machine going. He is a professional witness on this issue of self defense. He makes a living testifying on this issue at trials.

If for any reason you get into the position of letting a DA make you look like an evil villian because you reloaded your own ammo, shame on you and I suggest you stop hand loading your ammo. If you can't articulate your own defense on the mechacnics and ballistics of your ammo, give it up now and go buy your ammo.

If you feel that your own reloads are more reliable then the store bought stuff, go it. But if you do reload know your work both inside and out. Know all there is to the art of reloading and make yourself an expert for your own good.

I think I know something on this issue. I am a retired cop, military man, and firearms instructor. I have been shooting guns for over fifty years. I ran my departments firearms program for 10 years. I problably have as much expertise as our professional witness and then some. I just don't like the idea of prepetuating a myth, so I can keep maing money on it.

Just some friendly advice pard! :wink:

rickyp · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2006, 12:11:50 PM »

the real things to consider are
federal. state, county, town or any other laws that may com into play, May states have their own law and what is a felony in one state could be just fine in another, this could be true from one town to another.
then you need to find out how gun friendly your state is. what would fly in TX would not be so in MD or CAL.
then if you area rested and have to stand trial think about the jury pool. will they be gun friendly or cant stand guns?

IF you live in a gun friendly state you may do fine using hand loads
but If you line in a state Like Maryland you may not fair so well.
I have talked with many Leo's in my area and was told by them close to the same thing by each. "find out what local LEO are using and get that or the equivalent". I personally use the Glaser safety slugs in my night stand revolvers. Just because I do not live in a gun friendly state and it has the word safety in it :-D

Heck a few years ago my neighborhood wanted to string me up and have a full police investigation with bullet testing just because someone wrongly accused me of shooting a dog in my yard that a neighbor would just let out to wonder the streets, so how would they take it if I would have used a hand load to shoot one of the FINE neighborhood criminals taht broke in my house

kyote · « **Reply #20 on:** February 15, 2006, 03:20:37 PM »

Hmmm,lots of differnt thoughts here.and any one can do as they please.I reload a lot,and shoot a lot of reloads.I normally allways carry a fire arm with me.to and from the range and field and where ever.I allways have my fire arms loaded with factory manufactured store bought ammo.I hope I NEVER have to raise a firearm at some one commited on robbing me are hurtin me are some other decent folk.But if I do....I want every thing on my side that I can have.and one being if asked in a court of law did you make that ammo are did you buy it from a store.and I am going to answer I bought it from a store and it said defence ammunition right here on the box.and not offensive ammunition that I made hundereds of rounds of in hopes that I could use it on another human some day..and hopefully my lawyer won't take me all the way to the cleaners with that earlier statement.but I think if the prosicutor brought up the later..I might have to dig deeper in the wallet for all the time it will take to convince folks that was not my intent. :shock:

rickyp · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2006, 04:03:16 PM »

when you think what you should use in your gun think about it this way
DO YOU WANT TO BE THE FIRST TO BE FOUND GUILTY OF MAKING A DEADLY ROUND AND GO TO JAIL? Is the saveings of $20 or so worth taking the chance?

Mainer · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2006, 04:31:50 PM »

Rickyp, I'm not trying to beat you up, but I've never heard of the crime of making a deadly round. :grin: Even the lightest factory or handloaded rounds must be presumed to be deadly.

Based on what you folks have said, it occurs to me the biggest consideration as to liability for using handloaded ammunition for self defense are the sentiments in the local community. It might be a bad idea in, say, greater Boston, but not even a consideration in rural Montana. A lot of other issues concerning your conduct before, during, and after you shoot someone in self-defense (or defense of another) are of greater consequence as to whether you might be found criminally or civilly liable.

I had expected people to bring up the issue of reliability. When I started handloading the first time I had some squib rounds (no powder charge) using an RCBS Piggyback II conversion unit mounted on a Rock Chucker press. I've heard of other people getting squib rounds from progressives. I suspect a careful, experienced handloader can exceed factory reliability. Obviously, a careless handloader can run into reliability problems that would make handloads unsuitable for defensive use.

This is my latest thinking on the subject.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:06:27 PM »

Reliability?

You wanna talk reliability?

The ONLY cartridges I ever had that failed to fire were Federal factory .44 Special cartridges.

Out of a box of 50, 38 failed to fire. Primer strikes were good and I had no problems firing any of my reloads in that little Bulldog.

Now, it holds 5, and if 76% of them failed to go bang, I would be in a world of crap if I had my life depending on them!

sgtt · « **Reply #24 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:22:01 PM »

Lawfull Larry-

Did your Chief allow you to carry handloads?

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #25 on:** February 16, 2006, 02:36:45 AM »

Quote from: rickyp

when you think what you should use in your gun think about it this way
DO YOU WANT TO BE THE FIRST TO BE FOUND GUILTY OF MAKING A DEADLY ROUND AND GO TO JAIL? Is the saveings of $20 or so worth taking the chance?

Ricky,
You're are getting a little emotional. I know that this subject and talking about anti-gunners is an emotional subject, but if you can quote case law and give us an example that would help. To my knowledge there is none! And believe me I have thoughly researched this subject.

But if it makes you more comfortable, buy your carry ammo. :wink:

Sgtt,
No department that I know of would allow the carry of reloads. The reason would be primarily for reliability. At least that is the reason I have continuously heard. We did use reloads for training purposes in the old days, in certain circumstances.

rickyp · « **Reply #26 on:** February 16, 2006, 03:38:59 AM »

Lawful Larry, read the case I posted of the old man shooting the P.O.S. kid.

"I've never heard of the crime of making a deadly round"

Police can come up with all kinds of stuff to make a persons life hard (not all do but a lot do).
In my aerea the police love to charge a person involved in a accident during winter storms as falure to reduce speed to avoid an accident. it doesn't matter if you are going 50 MPH or 5 MPH they carge you the same.

Maryland is very anti-gun they do what ever they can do to make the live of a gun owner hard and making stupid charges is part of them.

PaulS · « **Reply #27 on:** February 16, 2006, 09:25:43 AM »

In the research that I did on this (about five years ago) there had never been any charges filed nor action taken that was determined by the ammunition used to defend one's self. If you can quote a case then do it, if not then it is just another urban legend that needs to be put down.
I use reloads in my gun - I don't think they are any more dangerous than the factory stuff but they are more accurate in my gun and I have not had a failure to fire since the first year that I reloaded. Those failures were probably due to the use of the Lee Loader and a hammer to put them together. That was some 34 years ago.

Mainer · « **Reply #28 on:** February 16, 2006, 02:21:30 PM »

I quickly looked at the MD law which criminalizes the manufacture, possession, transport, use, etc. of a destructive device in MD. Criminal Law Article, Title 4, Subtitle 5.

Section 4-502(4) expressly excludes from the destructive device law a person who possesses smokeless or black gunpowder under Title 11, Subtitle 1 of the Public Safety Article and uses the gunpowder for loading or reloading small arms ammunition, antique firearms, or replicas of antique firearms.

Title 11, Subtitle 1 of the Public Safety Article requires an individual to obtain a license to possess or store more than 5 pounds of smokeless or black powder.

Assuming the old man spoken of was charged and convicted in MD under similar laws, I suspect that he loaded something other than conventional handloaded ammunition or possessed more than 5 pounds of powder without a license or did something similar. I seriously doubt the mere use of handloaded ammunition in a defensive shooting was the issue.

Mainer · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2006, 02:30:13 PM »

I had really hoped you guys who handload defensive ammo would give me any tips you have to ensure that ammo is realiable. Do you weight each loaded round to protect against squib rounds or double charges?