Buffalo Classic rechamber

[NFG]

:eek:    Anyone do a rechamber such as 45-90, 100, 110 or 120 to an NEF Buffalo Classic barrel?  I'm going to send my SB2 frame in to have the barrel fitted, then thought something larger than 45-70 might be fun to do.  :shock:  :twisted:  :roll:

Thanks  NFG

[quickdtoo]

I did a 45-120...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=56895&highlight=45120

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=56967&highlight=45120

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=58971&highlight=45120

[NFG]

You convinced me Quickdtoo.  

Did you do the rechamber or someone else?

Have you tried shooting 45-70's, 45-90's  in the chamber?  Definitely an example of Long throating.

Any surprises or problems with the chambering?

What is the diameter of the barrel at the chamber end?

Which bullet  and powder did you like best?  I use Goex FFG for my BP guns.  Started with it and never bothered to try any other brand.  Like the smell.  No beef with any of the other brands, they all work.

Where did you get the reamer?

I've had duds with every brand and type of primer at one time or another, new or 30 year old.   It happens to the best.

More questions coming. :mrgreen:

Thanks  NFG

[quickdtoo]

Never tried Goex, it's to hard to come by here and costs just as much as smokeless if I can get it. Tried 95gr of T7, but it costs the same as smokeless too and I need twice as much of it. I'm using H4895 and XMP5744, have shot 405gr rems, 405, 440 and 460gr Cast Performance and 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers, all my favorites!!

525gr Piledriver


I had it reamed by a local smith who rented the reamer from www.Reamerrentals.com  My smith now is Wayne York, the smith that did my 45-120 did a great job on the chamber, but not so hot a job on the front sight and the outside of the chamber, scored it bad in his lathe. Wayne has done a .338-06 and .405 Winchester rechamber and rebore for me and is doing a .35 Rem rechamber for me as we type!! Great smith!! Wayne told me that I could safely shoot .45-70 in it, if I wanted to, it would require a good chamber cleaning before I could shoot .45-120 in it afterwards, though. But I have no need to do that, I have a 45-70 BC and 2 45-70 Handis for that! :wink:

All H&R/NEF barrels are the same size at the breech end(except the 10ga), about 1.1" as I recollect from a poll taken a couple years back.

Tim

[MSP Ret]

QUICK!!!, Why did you do that to me so early in the morning!!! Your .35 Remington rechamber is being done right now? You just make me drool a mouthfull of coffee all over my keyboard!!! Please post how it shoots and works as soon as you get it back!!....<><....

[quickdtoo]

Yup, sent it to Wayne the first week in Feb, but he's behind due to his move, so it will be a while before he gets to it.

Tim

[bajabill]

if I wanted to go to a 45-90, i think its the 2.6 or 2.75" brass, could this be done with a hand turned reamer, or would a lathe be required.

I just did the 357max and feel like an old salt already    :grin:

[knight0334]

I think the 45-90 is 2.4"

45x3.25 "Basic" can be trimmed down to about 45-90 lengths, any shorter and you'll run into case wall thickness issues in the seating/neck area.   ...being too thick to maintain proper inside and outside diameters.


If my memory serves me correctly, it is as follows:
45-70 = 2.1"
45-90 = 2.4"
45-100 = 2.6"
45-110 = 2.875" (2 7/8")
45-120 = 3.25"
45-125 Winchester = same as 45-120 dimensions, but thinner case walls.

[knight0334]

You could probably do it with a hand reamer.  

You'll only change the length of the chamber and a slight change in the sidewall taper.

Since you'll be opening up a half inch or more of barrel, I'd do it in smaller steps between pull-outs for oiling and cleaning.

[NFG]

Thanks Quickdtoo, et all.  I like the "Pile drivers" also and have a beginning load saved for my Marlin project as soon as I get all the ducks lined up.  Might need a sissy bag to work off the bench with that load.  1700 f/s at about 43,000psi.  Lots of folks might like that one.  But I will use a 300 or 350 gr for hunting loads.

I've been to ReamerRentals many times but seem to end up buying a PTG reamer.  I can use up a Hi-Velo, small cal barrel in two seasons.  The reamers pay for themselves quickly.  I think I will go there for this job and I need a 307Win for my Marlin 3030 rechamber, also.

I measured my NEF 223 bull barrel at 1.1" and a bit.  Barring waiting for the barrel, I figured a question would be quicker.

What are some of your loading manual recommendations?  

I have 3 pages of data in the  Accurate Arms #2 and that's about all, other than going to the internal ballistics programs and I want some actual data to check against.

I bought out a gunstores going-out-of-business supply of Goex FFG, 27 cans, about 15 years ago so I just stay with it, only 5 full cans and 2 partials left though.  Gonna miss it when it's gone.

I think the longer 45-90 case might work well, other wise maybe a overpowder card  and a wad of tissue or wasp nest paper in a downloaded 45-120 case would keep the powder in place.   Maybe the powder plugs would work???   Lots of good things can be done

Anyone doing a long hex barrel for the NEF, say 36", 1.125" flats, pick your caliber, that you know of?   Haven't searched in that area yet.

Thanks  NFG

[quickdtoo]

The Montanan is the 45-90 guru, he's the one to pick on for that caliber specially for Goex loads. Do a search for his posts, he has several in this forum. I think Haywood Haywire may have a .45-90 of .45-100, too.

If I remember correctly, black powder loads can't have any space in the case, needs to be compressed slightly.

Tim

http://buffaloclassic.tripod.com/

I use load data from Accurate Powder's web site, Hodgdon's and the Lyman 48th.

http://accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_rifle_obsolete.htm

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7cartridge.php

[Smokin Joe]

NFG,

 I did the .45-90 rechamber on my B/C. You can do it by hand and it'll only take a couple of minutes. Use plenty of cutting oil and clear the chips every couple of turns.
 The .45-90 is a 2.4" case and you can get 3 different brands of brass from Buffalo Arms:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=61&catid=37&step=2

You can use your existing .45-70 die set to resize and reload.
For a reamer, try 4-D at http://4-dproducts.com/index.php
They'll rent one for 25.00

My B/C likes the Lee 500 - 3R and the 535 Paul Jones Creedmore, both 20 to 1 and sized .459

[quickdtoo]

Best price I've seen on Starline 45-90 Brass is Cabelas and Midway at $76 a hundred, and they actually have it in stock. Midway even has nickel!! You can get it direct from Starline if you want 250 or more...

Cabelas 45-90 Brass

Midway 45-90 Brass

http://www.starlinebrass.com/pricelist.html

[NFG]

Thanks again, Hoss.  I read a little about 777, found a couple pounds at my favorite hangout, but didn't go any farther.

I called my other favorite shop and he said $335 would have a NEF Buffalo Classic on my wall in about a week...AFTER...he see's if I'm flush or slick.  Not much more cost than doing a barrel re-up, adding sights and a new forend.  Told him I would be in Monday with cash money and expecting an apology for the direct, implied insult to my pocket book and well known cash flow problems.

This 45-70 to 45-120 project is getting too way to easy and moving way too fast for my usual frog jumps.  I'm starting to look over my shoulder.  I just started the whole shebang today, for the most part.  I can always hope Murphey is off screwing with some one else for a while.

I have Lyman dies all lined out from Midway, bullets from Beartooth, Speer, Hornady and Hawk, cases from Buffalo Arms, reamer from ReamerRentals.  WAY TOO COOL.  I might not want no stinkin, blowedout, leverslapper no mo'. :mrgreen:  :shock:  :evil:

Thanks again for all the stuff and such.  I'm gonna go talk to JD for a bit, settle my nerves, and look out the window to see if Murphey is out there grinning at me.   :cry:  :x

NFG

[quickdtoo]

If you find out that Buffalo Arms doesn't have the brass in stock, which is likely as I found out after I ordered it from them, check out Track of the Wolf, that's where I got my first batch. Bell Brass is no longer in business, but the new Owner, Mast Technology sold all the brass they had in stock over a year ago with no plans to make any more. So get it where you can, while you can. I paid $180 for a 100 direct from Mast. Cabelas lists 45 Basic brass by Norma, but has none in stock. Another source is huntingtons.com

http://trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=2&subId=26&styleId=75&partNum=CASE-45-120

[NFG]

One other question;

What pressure range is the Buffalo Classic rifle considered to belong to?
Trapdoor, Marlin or Ruger?

Anyone shoot the new Hornady Leverevolution 325gr 45-70 ammo in it?

Thanks  NFG

[quickdtoo]

The 45-70, 450 and 444 Marlin Leverevolution ammo won't be available unitl this spring.

NEF/H&R will tell you that they can be loaded with levergun levels, but many here, myself included, have shot low Ruger loads on late model SB2 frames, but be warned, the recoil is severe even with mid to upper levergun loads!!

Tim

[knight0334]

The BC and the Handi are easily Marlin pressure range, even touching into the lower Ruger #1 range if you're into pain.

Each rifle is different though..  some most will take low Ruger, a few wont.

[quickdtoo]

Here's some data that overlaps levergun levels with Ruger levels...

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570cast.htm

It depends on the source of the data, but 45-70 levergun data typically goes to 40kpsi and ruger data to 50kpsi, the Handi is chambered in .500S&W with data to 50kpsi which has similar case head size to the 45-70.

Tim

[NFG]

Sent in 3 post that didn't go through yesterday.  Maybe I've been black balled already.

Anyhow Mucho Mass Gracias for all the information and links.

I paid the man for the Buffalo Classic this morning and ordered all the reloading supplies last night so I should be shooting something by next weekend.  Time will tell.

Ken Waters articles on the 45-70 indicated 18-25 f/s increase per inch according to his tests with 3031.  Would be very nice but questionable.  I ran some numbers through my ballistics programs using Real Guns data for a 22" barrel and came up with 60 f/s for the 10" difference.  I'll know for certain soon using Rem Factory and Real Guns data duplicating his loads as close as I can using Benchmark and Speer 300 gr FN's.  And, I'll get some different weights ordered up that will match Real Guns as long as I can use them in the Marlin.

For what it's worth, I'll post the information I develop on the NEF and the Marlin when I get it finished.

I might just go with 45 Basic brass as it seems to be available most of the time, and cut it down to the different lengths I end up testing.  Basically sacrificing 4 cases per length, for the cause.

This is going to be fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NFG :mrgreen:   :grin:  :-D

[quickdtoo]

You haven't been black balled, the forum software doesn't always work well, all of your posts are showing, sometimes they won't show up, but if you look in you profile and click "find all posts by NFG", you'll see the ones that don't show up, then you need to click edit on the missing post but don't change anything, and resubmit it, then it will show up in the list.

Tim

[NFG]

That's nice!!!  I just  learned something new.  One was there the rest?  I live  way out in the boonies at the end of old phone lines, so most of the problems are on my end, most likely.  Probably more smoke than fire in the posts anyway. :roll:

I did check a few more numbers from Real Guns.  I came up with a 12 f/s increase per inch using the same amount of IMR 4198 and 300 gr bullets.  120 f/s increase over the 22" barrel.  That's definitely significant.  Looks like I need to get some IMR 4198, RL-7 and RL-10X.

For you who like pointy bullets the Barnes XFB have some very nice B.C.'s.  I like the 400 gr XFB at .457.  Makes for some extra pizzazz down range.  Should work well in the 45-90 and longer cases.  The bullet is 1.55" long!!!  Can't wait to try that one in the 120 case.

NFG  

[quickdtoo]

I'm intending on shooting the Barnes .411" 350gr XFB in my .405 Winchester Target, it's 1.430" long and has a BC of .536!! Got them on sale as discontinued by Barnes for $28 a box.  Haven't been to the range with it yet, but will as soon as they open during the week next month, don't care for the crowd on the weekends.

Just for kicks, I shot my H4198 2425 fps 300gr Nosler Partition load that I shoot in my 22" .45-70 Handi, in my .45-70 BC, barely made 2450fps, so the extra barrel length doesn't always help, 10" in this case only yielded an extra 25fps velocity. I'm using H4895 in the .405 Win to see if the slower powder will make use of the longer barrel. I prefer to stick with Hodgdon's Extreme powders, the hot and cold performance variations in other powders can be real disappointing from all I've read, so I just don't go there.

Tim

[NFG]

I gotta be quick on my posts.  My IP keeps kicking me off at 20 minutes and "stuff" happens after that.

You'r right about the Extreme powders.  I use them for the most part.  H4350, Varget, Benchrest fit most of my small and medium cases and Rl-15 thru 22 for the large stuff.

B.C.'s are proportional to diameter and weight.  That's why I like 416 cal.  Very high B.C.'s and  long, heavy bullets for the diam.  Sorta like the 140 and 160 6.5 cal bullets

I picked up a box of Rem 405 gr 45-70 today to start data the data base.

Any one know the published or 22" or 32"  velocities or what amount and type of powder is used for the Rems?

Been checking out 120 case availability.  $2.30 a case is a bit steep.  I may fall back and regroup.  The 45-90 is getting prettier and prettier.

Quickdtoo; Have you had any problems with getting good accuracy or problems with powder capacity with the big case?

I ran some numbers and it came up as good as a 458 Lott with a 300 gr bullet.  WW748 at 92 gr was at 95% fill, 2800 f/s, 46,660 psi with a Barnes 300 XSFB.  

Anyone try something along these lines?  AWESOME numbers.

NFG

[knight0334]

Not to side track this, but..


NFG,

your being kicked off might be a minor setting in your dialup connection for inactivity.  20 mins is roughly default for Windows for inactivity, you can change or deselect it in the dialup properties.

[quickdtoo]

The 2006 Hodgdon Annual shows a max of 60gr of H4895 at 1809fps in a 24" barrel using the 500gr 457125 cast bullet with pressure at 28.5kcup. I figure I can push the 525gr past that safely in the BC, but have to work on the load, I'm still way below their start data of 54gr. All things in good time!!

I've not had any problems so far, but most of my shooting has been with XMP5744 which is not position sensitive. I've also read that IMR SR4759 is even better, but I prefer to stick with the Hodgdon for reasons stated. I use no fillers as stated by all the load data sources I've used. Every load I've shot has been under 1½"moa.

I bought 500 of the 405gr rems, it's a really inexpensive bullet compared to other 405gr jacketed or gas checked choices, $71 shipped from Cabelas. They shoot great, although at higher velocities, may not be the best choice, they aren't the best constructed bullet for heavy game, I think a hard cast like the 405gr WFNGC Cast Performance would serve that purpose better.

Tim

[NFG]

Thanks Knight0334, I have both those boxes unchecked.  Could have to do with traffic and the IP.  Sometimes late at night I get over an hour.  Talked to the IP and they said the telephone co.  Talked to the telephone co and they said IP.  Usually after that everything settles down for a while, but the IP emailed saying their having problems so....Who knows?

Thanks Quickdtoo.  I'm swimming in strange waters with this 120 case.  Haven't yet found how much pressure the case can handle.  All the loading data is around 28,000.  Going by ballistics programs for that 114 gr case gives a different level of information.  I was using 40-44000 as the range for the load data.  I know bolt receiver capabilities but single shot, leverguns and obsolete cases are new.

As long as the frame will handle the pressure the need for speed starts rearing its greedy head.  I was just making up load information and that pointy Barnes XFB looked mighty good at those velocities.  Definitely something to study and creep up on.  Those 550 bore runners look very inviting also.  

Still in the R&D stage until my rifle comes in.

The 45-90 loads looked very good with the Barnes XFB.  That's another case I need to study on.

Midway was out of the 405 when I ordered up, so I will check out Cabelas and Lock, stock and Barrel when I get ready to reup my supply.  I just picked up a box of Horn 300 HP's today also.  Just have to wait and see.  

In the mean time I just keep asking questions and crawling the web.

Just timed out again, 22 minutes.

NFG   :-D

[quickdtoo]

I don't know for sure, Accurate sets the max level to 31kpsi. Hodgdon's highest is 28.5kcup. Lyman sets the max at 25.8kcup and states it's for modern manufactured guns rated for smokeless powders. I don't know if the 45-120 is chambered in any modern strong actions, but that could be the issue, dunno for sure. If I can get 1800fps with the 525gr Piledriver without excessive case growth and no other high pressure issues, I'll be happy, it's not much more than what book data shows and Marshall Stanton at Beartooth thought it was a realistic and safe goal if worked up slowly.

Tim

[NFG]

I posted this information on Beartooth Shooters forum also.


I  talked to Buffalo Arms to find out about the mechanical properties of their 45-120 brass to see, for certain without furthur conjecture, if it will handle the same pressure as the NEF frame will handle.

They said their brass will handle the pressure range that the NEF will handle.  

IF YOU START HAVING PROBLEMS WITH THE BRASS THEN YOU ARE ALREADY WAY BEYOND WHAT THE FRAME IS DESIGNED TO HANDLE...BACK OFF!!!

This information is good enough for me to go ahead with my 45-120 incremental program and to load up to 48+ KPSI as I measure the base expansion on the cases.  CAVEAT EMPTOR rules in this case.

A 300 gr bullet at 2800 f/s using 90 gr powder and a 9 lb gun will slap the dog doodoo out of you with about 57 ft lb recoil energy.  A 500 gr at 2150 f/s using 78 gr powder and a 9 lb gun will do you 65 ft lb.

The question is WHY and you have to answer that one.

Have fun

NFG

[bajabill]

what are the real life differences between the many choices of

45-90 win, 45-90 sharps straight (2.75")

45-100 ballard, 45-100 sharps (2.4), 45-100 sharps (2.6), 45-100 sharps striaght,

and so on

Mainly, what concern should one have when ordering reemers and maintaining compatability with basic 45-70 govt chamber and sizing dies