Author Topic: need some input on working up a load (Read 1179 times)

mjbgalt · « **on:** February 17, 2006, 09:20:20 AM »

How do i know i am close to a good load? i have shot 16 different 3 shot groups out of my browning .243 and i have some that touch two holes and then the third shot is way off. i have some that print a pefect triangle but are 2" groups. i have some that are almost touching but are in a line at a 45 degree angle.

what do i want? well i want to have a 3 shot group i can cover with a quarter. i would love to be able to touch all 3 holes but sometimes that's not possible.

i am using a hornady 87 grain soft point and H4350 and Varget.

-Matt

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2006, 09:57:36 AM »

You will know when, like you said, "...I can cover the group with a quarter."

It shouldn't matter exactly what shape they group; if the group is covered by a quarter, great! If in the process all the bullet holes end up touching each other, that is even better! Next is if the rifle will do that again, again, and again. Consistency is what counts the most. It still shouldn't matter how individual groups end up in shape. The main point is the group size should stay consistently average to what size you are looking for.

I would suggest, if possible, to switch to something like a plastic tipped bullet. That may be why you get two touching and the third way off track. Softpoint noses hardly look or come out consistent IMO. If that won't work for you, maybe experiment with different seating depths.

What will these loads likely be used for?

-Patriot

mjbgalt · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:02:24 AM »

i had in mind an all-around load for groundhogs, yotes, paper, and deer, if i ever get enough time away from work to go out of state for them.

the soft point supposedly will open enough on yotes and for groundhogs i don't care...i mean if i poke a hole in 'em at 3,000fps they are going to die, period.

interesting though....about the plastic tips...do you really think the small differences in the lead (dents, scrapes, etc) makes that big of a difference? i once deformed one on purpose and it shot almost exactly the same as the others.

-Matt

ricciardelli · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:13:56 AM »

It isn't the tip of the bullet that has the greatest effect on accuracy, it is the base of the bullet.

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:20:55 AM »

What concerns me more with softpoint bullets is not really dents, or scratches, but how much lead is in them. It has more to do with the consistency in weight. I've seen on some of my bullets where the point is for example, .01" past the front of the copper jacket, on another the nose may protrude more or less than the first. It seems to me (in other words, in my opinion) the ballistic effect because of difference in the nose's shape, weight, and length apart from the others could cause that slight deflection.

If I'm looking for a hunting bullet, but not necessarily a tack driver, then I wouldn't mind that small problem with the third being a flier. But if I want all the bullets through the same hole on the paper, any problem associated with a bullet's design that I can help will be dealt with.

Try that experiment again, but instead of deforming the nose, clip some of the lead off (not necessarily neatly). Try anything to interfere with the nose's shape and weight, to see if any impact is seen in the groups. I've never really had time to experiment with stuff like that on my own, but it might be worth a look.

Would you be hunting the 'yotes for the pelt?

-Patriot

mjbgalt · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:45:09 AM »

just noticed one other possible issue. i am being picky now... my scope isn't EXACTLY perfectly aligned. everything is mounted tight but the crosshairs are tilted very slightly. this could result in me resting the rifle on the bags canted a tiny tiny bit.

shouldnt the groups still be the same though, considering the 1/8" of difference between totally flat rifle and how it is now? i mean the crosshairs- where they cross is the same.

-Matt

Castaway · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:54:52 AM »

A lot of people have said a lot of good things, but I advocate a 5 shot group. Gives a better idea of what yor rifle is capable of.

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2006, 11:20:18 AM »

The scope issue might not be a problem; the only thing I'm aware that could cause difficulty with is holdover. If it is not straight up and down, it might cause you to subconsciously hold more horizontally than vertically. But hey, if you feel it might be a factor, then by all means fix it. Remember, if you can make the rifle conform more perfectly to you, it could influence better shooting on your end of the table. I've noticed that same phenomenon myself.

A 5-shot group is also be pretty good advice as well. I usually shoot 5 shots with my lower end calibers (308 Win, 30-06, etc.) But with my 300 Wby. I stick with 3-shot groups. By then the barrel gets a little warm...Yes, I do allow it to cool sufficiently after each shot. IMO, rapid firing habits will burn out any barrel faster, regardless of powder quantity or bullet velocity.

A tip for making sure your scope stays properly aligned before and after you tighten the screws: I use a black to make lines on top of both rings onto the scope body (make sure they are straight). This is of course after the crosshairs are perfectly aligned. If the markings have not remained aligned after you tighten the screws, the scope has turned.

-Patirot

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2006, 11:21:39 AM »

Matt

All of my scopes have a very slight canter to them and does not affect my groups . I do this because for some reason when i sholder the rifle my world is just a little off . :shock:

I can not see how this could affect the point of aim , the center is still the same + as it is at X , if you know what i mean.

Just my .02 worth

mjbgalt · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2006, 11:28:48 AM »

thanks

-Matt

kenscot · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2006, 12:25:14 PM »

Have you tried using sierra 85gr. HPBT bullets yet? Have not heard of a 243 that would not shoot these into small little groups. My gun will consistently shoot them under an inch and usually under half an inch

koli · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2006, 02:58:58 PM »

My Rem 700 and my buddy's Ruger Mk II both like factory Federals with the 70 grain Nosler Ballistic tip.

I am currently working on finding a handload using these bullets. They are flat out deadly on Groundhogs.

Question here:

When working up a load, what increments do you guys usually use form the starting load?
ie 0.1 grain, 0.2 grain, 0.5 grain

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2006, 03:51:11 PM »

koli wrote:

Quote

When working up a load, what increments do you guys usually use form the starting load?
ie 0.1 grain, 0.2 grain, 0.5 grain

I usually work up in 0.2 grain increments.

-Patriot

Steve P · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2006, 04:45:02 PM »

A few suggestions as I have 'been there - done that' too many times.

I always shoot 5 shot groups. No matter how good you try, you can get a flyer or shot that just doesn't do what it is supposed to.

I always shoot at LEAST 2 groups of 5 of each load. So I have 10 rounds with same bullet, powder/weight, primer.

When using rifle casings that take that much slow burning powder, my increments are in .5 grains.

Your scope is a little canted, but that wont make any difference if you use exactly the same sight picture. For this exact reason, majority of my targets have dark squares and/or lines that I can use to 'square up' my cross hairs. With same sight picture, even if scope canted, they should all hit same place.

When I shoot my groups, I alway load one, yes one, round at a time, and let the bolt pull the round out of the magazine. If lever action, it goes into magazine also and the action still chambers the round. May sound silly, but put a few 220 grain -06 rounds into a magazine and you will change your impact point at longer distances.

Have fun with your project. If 4350 doesn't get you there, try H4831. It is one of the more popular .243 powders.

Steve

Robert357 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2006, 09:26:53 PM »

The intial question is how do you figure out an optimum load.

What I like to do is a Ladder Test to find the sweet spot where the variation in point of impact is small when there are changed in powder or OAL.

I would suggest reading the following:

http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/laddertest.explanation.html

PaulS · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2006, 07:19:28 PM »

I like it when I can hide my groups under a nickel but what is more important than that is when you can do that with several groups - most of the time - on trips to the range that are spread out over months worth of range results. Different temps, humidity, and altitudes. I like my loads to shoot close to the same under the widest range of conditions. That way I can be sure that I can shoot and hit what I aim at under all conditions.

VTDW · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2006, 07:37:31 PM »

LET IT COOL DOWN BETWEEN SHOTS. I MEAN COOL DOWN!!!!!

papajohn428 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2006, 12:23:29 PM »

One thing that hampered my progress years ago was not having a consistent bench technique. You have to rest the rifle exactly the same way each time, grasp it the same was, brace it against your shoulder the same way. EVERY TIME. I used to a get a lot of one-out fliers in five shot groups, and finally realized it was usually the fourth or fifth shot. I was getting tired, did something differently, and it showed up on paper. Let yourself rest between shots, let the barrel cool, collect your thoughts, let your eyes relax. Eye strain is another problem, if you're straining to see the target over a long period, stop, take a deep breath and let yourself recover.

As for charge increments, I usually load ten at each setting, increase by .5, then when the groups start to tighten up, I change to .2 bumps.

You might also want to check the bedding of the rifle............

Papajohn

mjbgalt · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2006, 05:34:05 PM »

when do you guys stop loading? i mean do you wait until it's under an inch or do you strive for one hole forever? what are your standards?

-Matt

papajohn428 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2006, 05:16:38 AM »

In my case, it depends on the gun. If it's a 30-06, I might be plenty happy with an inch and a half. With a 22-250, I EXPECT tiny groups, unless there's an obvious problem with the barrel, the bedding, whatever. Your planned uses for the gun matters, if you're after deer in the thickets it's not a primary concern, if you want to blast pasture poodles 400 yards away, you NEED half-MOA. But if tuned right, most guns are capable of that magic one-holer. Finding the load and tuning the gun are just steps on the Stairway To Heaven!

Papajohn

victorcharlie · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2006, 07:35:39 AM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

when do you guys stop loading? i mean do you wait until it's under an inch or do you strive for one hole forever? what are your standards?

-Matt

It depends......

I worked on a heavy barrel ruger .243 for over 2 years.......I bedded it 9 different times.......used several different powder and bullet combinations......finally got it shooting almost the same hole at 100 yards.......about 6 months after that, the gun was stolen.......the same rifle shot about 3 inch groups with factory loads........but man, it was special with my hand loads! I bet who ever has the rifle thinks that it's sure a piece of crap.....or at least I hope so........

There are a lot of people who spend a lot of time, money and effort in order to find the "sweet spot".......that is required to shoot the same hole......some never find it....I guess some find it quicker than I did.........where you stop depends on just that, how much time and money do you want to spend, and how much effort do you want to expend?

When the gun was stolen, it sure took a lot of wind out of my sails.........I've never gone to that extreme again after that, and if it's close to an inch I leave it alone.........with a savage, that's usually right out of the box........I guess it just broke my heart............

ricciardelli · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:01:32 AM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

when do you guys stop loading? i mean do you wait until it's under an inch or do you strive for one hole forever? what are your standards?

-Matt

I stop when it puts 5 shots in less than 1" at 200 yards...at a velocity that is sufficient to do the job for that caliber and game. (Generally less than max.)

I was working-up a .22-250 load using the Sierra 52 HPBT and Varget awhile back. It was grouping 0.685" for 5 at 200, but it was only doing 2957 FPS at 15' from the muzzle. Not what I would consider right for the caliber...

ricciardelli · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:08:06 AM »

"I worked on a heavy barrel ruger .243 for over 2 years"

I spent 6 years finding a good load for a .25-06. I learned a lot of new words in those 6 years, but I have a .25-06 that will do 5 at 200 in 0.489".

mjbgalt · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:45:43 AM »

Steve, it would be damn hard for me to put that load away at that group at 200 yards. I would be too tempted to leave it and say to myself that 2900 fps would kill anything i was going to shoot with a .22-250.

you guys are more dedicated than i am with some of these.

I am having trouble with duplicating loads. one trip to the range i got a great group with 38 grains of varget and today i went out with that load and it wasn't nearly as good. what gives?

apparently the powder is off in weight. i have a browning hunter a-bolt and it's glass bedded so i imagine it isn't the gun???

but i think the weak link is the cheapo Lee scale i use. it seems to "stick" sometimes and take quite a few attempts to get it to balance.

anyone know of any other scales they recommend? i want to spend $50 or so, no $250 scales for me.

-Matt

strut64 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2006, 10:35:11 AM »

mjb, the suggestions so far have all been good. Your problem with flyers is not uncommon. Often caused by mismatched powder causing inconsistent pressures or ignition. Sometimes a change to a different or hotter primer can help. Often a complete change to another powder is necessary. Try a slower powder like some one said like H4831SC( short cut). I am curently fighting the same battle with a new 223. Every rifle is a bit of a mystery when getting started.

The last post you noted a problem with inconsistent scale performance. That alone is a killer. I had an Ohaus scale that i used for 28 years - All of a sudden it went south on me. I think the pivots corroded. I went out and got a new scale that day. I use a simple balance beam scale. The replacement is a Hornady but there are several reasonably priced available. How do you tell if a scale is bad. Pick out two bullets and set them aside as your references. When you have a question put the same pair of bullets on the scale. You should expect that the weight will repeat with in 0.1 grain. 2 - 85 grain bullets should be about 170 grains. good quality bullets are pretty consistent usually

papajohn428 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2006, 11:20:38 AM »

Hey mjbgalt.........Get on the Midway site (www.midwayusa.com) and look for the Frankford Arsenal Micro Reloading Scale. On sale right now for $30. I'm waiting for Sienna Claus (UPS guy) to bring me two of them this afternoon!

Papajohn

lilabner · « **Reply #26 on:** February 22, 2006, 01:26:13 PM »

It isn't hard to eliminate scope tilt as a problem. Use a target with thick crosshairs superimposed over the bullseye. Line up your scope crosshairs on the target crosshairs when you shoot. That way, your hold will be consistent and everything should go into the same hole, more or less. I'd make the scope crosshairs as vertical as possible, though. I like to throw the gun to my shoulder and aim at something I know is vertical. If the crosshairs are consistently off, I loosen the ring screws and shift the scope until everything is consistently lined up.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2006, 03:08:42 PM »

i checked the scale with a bullet already. it was right. but how in the heck do i explain the sticking? sometimes it seems "settled" and i bump it with my finger and it settles again but in a different place. annoying.

-Matt

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2006, 06:33:38 PM »

Matt

Now you understand why i tossed my Lee scale across the room 25 years ago . I picked up one of these and have not had one problem since .

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=758842

The good ol RCBS 5-0-5 , Just get one of these you will love it .

mjbgalt · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2006, 02:37:24 AM »

thanks, i will look into it.

i want to have my guns shooting well by the time the groundhogs wake up for the spring. :grin:

-Matt