Author Topic: Ruined 94 Barrel, Replacements??? (Read 3006 times)

tbmaker · « **on:** February 23, 2006, 06:42:19 PM »

Wanted to install a XS ghost ring on my 94AE Trapper, 45 colt.
Went to drive out the front sight, didn't move.
Used a lot of force with hammer and punch, using wood to support underneath the barrel.

How was it installed?

Next stupid move was to drill through the base thinking to give the metal some place to go instead of expanding into the supposed dovetail.
Didn't work.
Out came the dremel tool.
Cut off the post. Started to cut a slot through the middle of the base to create 2 pieces.
Being very careful not to go past the horizontal plane I thought was there for the base, a small black hole appeared.
Stopped grinding, sure enough I can see day light in the barrel.

This sight was specific to the gun, instructions state, just drive out the front sight and maybe minor adjustments to the new sight to make it fit in existing dovetail.
Apparently there isn't a dovetail?

I presume the barrel is shot.
Can you get replacement barrels?
Numrich didn't have any, Brownells didn't have a 45 Colt barrel.
I don't want to change the caliber but do I need to consider it then sell it and get a another 45??

Any help will be appreciated.

Wayne

michael orlen · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2006, 02:19:40 AM »

A sight should NOT be drifted out of a dovetail with a hammer and punch; it should be pressed out with a tool designed for the job. This will avoid damaging the base or the barrel......with that said, have you contacted USRA in New Haven about a barrel?......or perhaps the damaged dovetail can be repaired by welding and recutting. You might contact Doug Everett at Swift River Gunworks in Belchertown, Massachusetts.

tbmaker · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2006, 03:45:16 AM »

From what I've seen all tools for drifting sights specificly state not to use on sights dovetailed in the barrel. They are only for sights mounted on a ramp.
I don't think it was dovetail installed to begin with.
I tried some heat, thinking it might be sweat soldered like the old mauser sights. No luck.
Winchester is no longer in business in New Haven.

Have you used Doug's services?
Further investigation after the hole showed up I don't think the barrel is thick enough for a dovetail to start with.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2006, 09:04:01 PM »

There are several ways the sight could have been affixed. It may even have been induction welded. I don't know how that sight was installed but it's toast now, if you drilled into the barrel. With Winchester out for the time being I'd check with authorized parts distributors. They may have a barrel. I may also be possible to cut the barrel to get rid of the hole and install a new front sight. Are you certain the hole enters the bore? Brownells as well as others carry winchester parts. Check with them.

smokey262 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2006, 03:49:54 AM »

You could also consider it a home brew porting job that is ingeniously disguised in the front sight

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

gwindrider1 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2006, 04:06:06 AM »

"Home brewed porting". :-D :-D :-D

Keith L · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2006, 07:07:59 AM »

Quote

You could also consider it a home brew porting job that is ingeniously disguised in the front sight

That is what I was thinking as well.

tbmaker · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2006, 06:23:38 AM »

Thanks a lot guys! :roll:

Back to subject.
I can see light coming in looking in the muzzel.

I had nothing to loose so I tried heating the barrel till the site changed colors and it never moved.

Brownells doesn't have a 45 Colt barrel and Midway is checking if they can get one.

Wouldn't cutting the end off make it too short for legal reasons?
The mag tube would have to be cut to.
My only concern would be how would you mount the new front sight?
I compared it to a newer model and mine is definetly thinner than the dovetailed models.
Front sight mounting options??

I like the idea.

Thanks for the imput so far, even the porting comments.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2006, 07:51:52 AM »

It was likely induction welded to the barrel. If the barrel's too thin for a dovetail you would likely have to install a low ramp which would be sweated to the barrel, the sight then pressed into the dovetail in the ramp. This would likely raise the bead too high for the normal sights and is likely the reason Winchester simply welded(or maybe silver braised) the front sight directly to the barrel. It would be fairly easy to fabricate a higher front sight with a contoured base that could be sweated to the barrel. The hole into the bore will have to stay open. Gunparts has a lot of surplus parts and some would work to fabricate what you need.

tbmaker · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2006, 09:47:40 AM »

Will leaving the hole cause accuracy issues, with gases leaking out in one direction?

gunnut69 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2006, 07:54:39 PM »

Well joking aside a port is carefully drilled and deburred.. If there are no major burrs on the inside(bore) it shouldn't cause a big problem. Other than the noise.. Accuracy would be affected if there were burrs damaging the bullet in passing.. You would have to work areound the hole as obstructions would cause problems..

tbmaker · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2006, 04:07:42 AM »

Thanks gunnut, I appreciate the help.

Another idea has come up.
I have a front sight ring from a sportered Swede. It is a perfect fit on the barrel.
The replacement sight ( XS sight ) height is .455 above the barrel.
The swede front sight would be .472.
Usable?
Also could I have my screw up filled and slip the ring over it to support the area?

Someone else mentioned to silver solder the hole and resess the crown past this spot. Is that a realist option?

Thanks again,
Wayne

gunnut69 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2006, 06:27:46 AM »

I really don't know if silver solder would hold. If I were going to apply that much heat I'd just weld it shut with a mig(wire welder). Then turn he outside of the barrel round eliminating the welded on sight. Counter bore the the muzzle to move the crown back past the welded shut hole.. The last 2 items would need to be done on a lathe. The last place I worked at charged $75 and hour for macjine time. The back front sight could work just fine.. Shotgun beads are routinely screwed into a thru and thru hole drilled and tapped into the front of the barrel. The difference is in the muzzle pressure of a 12 guage and a 45Colt. Mig welders introduce less heat into the material being welded and can be tightly control. A tiq would also likely work but most body shops have skilled welders(a good friend does mine) and they are used to working with great care. Body panels today are quite thin..

michael orlen · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2006, 07:46:43 AM »

....by the way, where did you hear that Winchester closed its New Haven plant? It was my understanding that parts and service were to remain there until the move to Missouri this spring....in either case, they can be found.

tbmaker · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2006, 08:02:55 AM »

Both off the internet and from the local gun shops.
Gave them a great reason to jack up their prices.
Also gave concern as to finding a barrel. They figure the factory will use all parts available to complete rifles wouldn't leave much left for replacement parts.

eywflyer · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2007, 02:20:18 PM »

Tbmaker, I am new to the 94 ranks, but for what it's worth, I learned a few things about these sights last week. I'm not sure if you pieced the set together or ordered the XS 94AE trapper set. Midway has them on sale now for $64.99. I just installed the 94AE trapper set on my 30/30 last week. My front sight (it was dovetailed into the barrel) was nice and firm, but did punch out with the barrel properly supported. In fact the XS directions specifically stated to use a soft punch and NOT to use a sight press tool. So don't feel too bad about the punch. One word of advice when you do get the barrel situation worked out. XS supplied a couple of plastic front sight posts to try at the range to determine the proper front blade height before you fit and install the steel front sight. If you do need a different height sight, they will exchange the unmodified one you have for the proper height you require based on your results with the plastic test sights. If you grind and fit the front blade first and it turns out to be the wrong height, they will charge you 1/2 price for the new one you need. My blade was too short. I would assume the barrel diameters of the big bores are larger than my 30/30. You would think they could have that figured out and give you the correct height blade for a specified caliber. The sight picture does give you very quick target acquisition but even the smaller ghost ring they provide is a little too big for longer range shots. But then I quess these are marketed as quick sights and not precise sights. I did read that a standard Williams peep insert will fit into one of the XS rings and it helps out if you feel the need to shoot farther. I believe the author used a threadlocker to hold it into place. Hope this helps!

tbmaker · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2007, 03:46:37 AM »

Thanks eywflyer.
Currently the rifle has been with a gunsmith for the last year. The guy I took it to thought about filling the damage and counter boring the end of the barrel, then had second thoughts about the strength of the fill job. Then he sends it to another smith somewhere in the state (don't know where), says this guy found a barrel with the proper dovetail and is supposed to re-barrel. Project hasn't moved forward since. Last month I suggested cutting off the end of the barrel and soddering on a muzzle brake to bring the length back to legal. Again no forward movement. I've expressed my displeasure to my usual smith and supposedly these 2 are meeting at gun show this weekend. I'll get an update next week.

BruceH · « **Reply #17 on:** March 28, 2007, 12:26:28 AM »

Wayne,

You can still get Winchester replacement parts from Browning. I don't have their number handi, but they seem to have all the spare Winchester parts.

Mikey · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2007, 12:43:37 AM »

Last I heard you could still contact Browning/Winchester at 1-800-945-1392. HTH. Mikey.

tbmaker · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2007, 05:22:43 AM »

They won't do just a barrel. Problems with the action twisting during barrel removal. They'd take all the guts from mine and put it in a new barreled action. Last year's quote was $300.00.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2007, 09:24:37 AM »

Browning/Winchester have some strange rules. I bought a M70 SuperGrade in 264 mag in 2003(ordered it in 2002) and after waiting 1 year + for delivery it came.. Looked great but the floor plate did not say 'Super Grade' as it was supposed to.. A call to customer service and they said to send it in for replacement.. It was sent.. after 5-6 weeks I started calling..they couldn't find it. After 3+ months they decided it was lost.. I said OK just send me a new one.. They replied that would not be possible as they come as an assembly? Then they started simply refusing to talk about it.. Then one day I called and got routed to a Browning service person.. She was much nicer. She said Winchester cutomer service folks had been "re-assigned", but she was also unable to help as the floorplates came as assemblies only! But since I'd been getting the runaround for soooooo long she said she'd take care of the problem. With a couple of days I received an entire new trigger guard/floor plate assemebly, unfortunately it did not have the SuperGrade logo on the floorplate.. I decided to leave well enough alone.. You might check with the parts houses like GunParts as they usually advertise barrels for the '94. Changing these barrels are not any more dangerous than many others.. Any good smith should be quite adequate..

tbmaker · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2007, 10:00:17 AM »

And that brings us right back to where I stand today. Supposedly the second smith has the replacement barrel and just hasn't installed it. Haven't got any confirmation that he actually has one.
First and last Winchester that will grace my gun cabinet, not sure it will stay there if it ever gets back from the smith.

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2007, 04:35:12 PM »

If I said it once I have said it one thousand times - take it to a qualified gunsmith.

You tried to do it yourself and refused to stop the deeper you got into it.

Now you have turned your prize possession gun into a worthless piece of scrap.

I will weld it for you and try to machine it back to original for a price.

Send me a private message and we can work something out.

tbmaker · « **Reply #23 on:** March 29, 2007, 03:50:13 AM »

Thanks but no thanks GM. Don't need the attitude from someone so full of himself.

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #24 on:** March 29, 2007, 04:11:06 PM »

One more thing, A magna ported barrel is not drilled out and deburred.

It is machined using a process called Electrical Discharge Machining.

The EDM uses electricity and a electrode to remove metal.

The process is actually called RAM EDM - because the carbon electrode is slowly fed into the metal and the arc that is produced creates a crater that is shaped like the electrode until it gets the whole way through the material.

The whole process is done in a dielectric solution - coolant water or oil and it does not distort the work piece.

Drilling would distort the workpiece because it would create heat and also would not make a true hole since spindles are known to get bent and drill bits gets dull and it would be easy for the material to warp when you machine it. Plus you would have to anneal the workpiece - barrel before you drilled it and then you would have to heat treat it after you machined it.

All things that costs money.

When I tell you that it is junk, it is because I worked in a machine shop for 8 years and have machined more steel than you and your little dremel tool will in a lifetime.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-edm.htm

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #25 on:** March 29, 2007, 04:34:23 PM »

By the way, Magnaporting is not a round hole.

http://www.mab.com.au/products/magnaport/default.htm

coyote trapper1928 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 29, 2007, 05:56:09 PM »

What about just filling the hole up with Alumaloy?

gunnut69 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2007, 08:10:27 AM »

Actually the shape of the holes is not a really big deal although different manufacturers would beg to differ. The surface area the holes generate and their angle in relation to the bore does make a difference. The way the holes are made has only a little difference in the process.. The biggest problem with drilling versus EDM is the burrs, EDM has none and in a bore they can be a pain to remove uniformly.. Also GameMaster if you're not a registered advertiser with GreyBeardOutdoors I'd rather you NOT try to drum up business. The hole in the barrel would likely not create a problem if properly deburred.. The counter boring of the muzzle was a simplified way to remove all the burrs.. Everyone who has worked on guns for any length of time has had problems.. As long as you learn from them and no one gets hurt it really isn't a problem. Those that say they know it all usually are the least worth listening to.. Keep us informed as to your outcome..

tbmaker · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2007, 10:56:57 AM »

Thanks gunnut. I'll keep you updated.

WILDCATT · « **Reply #29 on:** April 10, 2007, 06:07:12 AM »

I just looked at my Trapper.that sight is either welded in or forged.the 45 is to large a bore to dovetail
why not tap the hole and put a ramp that screws on.if that is a trapper you will be in trouble with the FEDS if you cut the barrel.
good luck and I mean luck.
add:I had my barrel replaced because of a bad chamber by the factory.