Author Topic: Z-Hat (Read 5770 times)

scout34 · « **on:** March 07, 2006, 05:58:23 AM »

Anybody ever use Z-Hat custom or any of the Hawk proprietary cartridges? They've got some pretty neat setups and I was wondering if anyone had any experience with them. The ultracat line looks cool also, though you have to dig for it a bit.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2006, 06:34:32 AM »

No, but I've looked em over, but their proprietary dies are cost prohibitive..

Tim

http://www.z-hat.com/Ultracat.htm

http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm

http://www.z-hat.com/catalog/search.php?submit=submit&categories=Reloading&subcategories=Dies

scout34 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2006, 05:50:50 PM »

Talked it over with the boss and got the green light for my first custom rifle. Rem 700LA trued up and chambered for .240 Hawk from Z-Hat. I'll be sending it off as soon as I get home on midtour leave.

Initial specs are 28" stainless barrel, HS precision M24 adjustable stock (foundat a gunshow for $100!), Sako extractor, lots of other little goodies.

Plan on putting a 6.5x20 Leupold LRT on top and using for long range varmint and F-class.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

scout34 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2007, 01:23:00 PM »

Coming up on a year and no word back on the rifle.

Why is it that the best gunsmiths always make the worst business managers?

Nobade · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2007, 01:59:42 PM »

'Cos everybody wants them to build rifles and they get swamped! I wish I could only run a year behind. It's more like two and a half in my shop. If it were me, I'd call him up and ask how it's going. Sometimes whoever hollers loudest gets the service first!

Charlie-NY · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2007, 07:41:02 AM »

I've got no problem with long production times PROVIDED that you are told up-front and that the goods are delivered when promised. All too often a customer is given a false idea of when his rifle will be finished so that the gunsmith can seal the deal and lock you in. That's just wrong.

Doesniper · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2007, 03:47:55 PM »

I have a local smith that does my work, and I figure it will get done when it gets done. I don't want him to rush through anything. I stop in and say hi every once in a while, ask him about future projects, ect. It keeps my project on his mind, and hopes of future projects without bugging him.

NONYA · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2007, 04:15:47 PM »

A smith that takes the job without giving you an acuurate timeline,esp when its a year OR 2 YEARS?!?!?!?! dont need to be in buisness,they love to take the work a leave you hanging,i have run into this crap twice and I have found one that is honest and lets me know if its going to be longer than first advised.Get your parts and go to another guy.

Catfish · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2007, 02:41:56 AM »

I have a .411 Hawk that Z-Hat built. It`s on a Ruger M-77 action and is a sweet rifle. I really have no need for a rifle of this cal. so I have not plaied with it alot. It did suprise me how well it shoots with 210 gr .410 dia bullets in my fire form loads, sub moa. I would not recomand this round though as you only have abt. .009 of shoulder to head space on and it`s very easy to bump back the shoulder, but it will push a 300 gr. bullet to the same velosity as the .375 H&H and do it with less powder. For North America I think that the .375 Hawk would be more than you would ever need. The reason I got the .411 in that he had built it for someone else and he was haveing torubles at home and had to sell it.

scout34 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2007, 02:20:40 PM »

15 months and counting.

k3yston3 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2007, 08:14:19 PM »

The hawk cartridges caught my eye once and then I purchased Fred's wildcat book in which I found an interesting statistical data manipulation. If you compare the suggest case capacities that he has listed for the hawks and then what he has listed later in the books for the Gibbs cartridges you can see that he has sort of manipulated the data set by showing a higher capacity for the hawks versus the Gibbs, which is only possible if one used thinner commercial brass to form the Hawks and the thicker mil-spec brass that Rocky Gibbs was using...but that would be an apples to oranges comparison in my eyes... Plus comparing what he list as loads for the 3200 Hawk vs my 8mm-06 AI I see little gain, but he doesn't start moving the shoulder forward until the 338 hawk and up...

Nobade · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2007, 04:16:58 PM »

OK, here's the deal I give everybody. Right now McMillan is running about 10 months behind, HS Precision nearly that, Kreiger about 6 months and Shilen 3 or 4. You bring me a gun to build, I can't tell you when it's going to be ready. It'll be done when it is. You find all the parts, bring them in at one time, tell me what you want and don't keep changing your mind every three days and your rifle's gonna be ready in about a week. The thing is, people just don't realize how long it takes to get parts. Or what a pain it is when they keep changing their mind after I have ordered their dream stock, barrel, etc. C'mon folks, this ain't any normal industry! If anybody pulled this stuff in the automotive, construction, etc. industry they wouldn't stay in business a month. But face it, we're building toys here. This is stuff people want, not need. They have to wait until the suppliers get done building stuff for the war machine, etc before they can have their toys. So don't sweat it, that's why you have more than one gun to shoot. Keep a couple in the pipeline being built and shoot the ones you have. We're doing the best we can with what we have to work with out here in gunsmith world!

scout34 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2007, 04:32:45 AM »

I've got no problem with a project taking a long time. I have no beef with a project taking longer than anticipated. I can deal with the bottom line, as long as it is up front. I don't like not being told anything. I'm not asking for weekly progress reports, but when the project ran over it's original estimated completion date I would have appreciated a note to say that I have not been forgotten and here is a new estimated completion date. I can wait years if I know I'm still in line for quality service from an artisan here in the US. I think it's worth it.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2007, 01:21:57 AM »

Fred is a great guy and one helluva 'smith. He falls into the category of gunsmith and not just gun-mechanic. Pick up the phone or shoot him an e-mail, it may take a day or two but he'll let you know. Do you want him to spend time sending everyone monthly progress reports or spend time on the orders? It blows my dang mind every time someone thinks that a project can be done in a few days, sure I can screw a barrel onto a receiver and throw a stock on it, but is that what you want? Heck no! if you wanted that you'd buy from every time-Mart. Give it time, relax have a brew and think of all the possibilities that will come from your new rifle. You'll love it when you get it.

NONYA · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2007, 11:17:19 PM »

How many MONTHS now?

Aardvark · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2007, 12:07:03 PM »

On the other hand, I sent my Siamese action to ER Shaw to be altered, Fitted and barrelled to 45-70...It was May when I sent it in and they told me 16 weeks,(4 months), I got it back two weeks ago finished and very well done...7 weeks...Now I have to wait on my stock from Richards Microfit....

CapoWard · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2007, 08:01:19 AM »

Quote from: scout34 on July 01, 2007, 04:32:45 AM

I've got no problem with a project taking a long time. I have no beef with a project taking longer than anticipated. I can deal with the bottom line, as long as it is up front. I don't like not being told anything. I'm not asking for weekly progress reports, but when the project ran over it's original estimated completion date I would have appreciated a note to say that I have not been forgotten and here is a new estimated completion date. I can wait years if I know I'm still in line for quality service from an artisan here in the US. I think it's worth it.

Don't know if you received the "mass mailing" generic email message from Z-Hat yet - just received mine yesterday in reference to an inquiry that I made in early February 2007. Sounds like Fred needs a good secretary since he can't seem to find good help in the production arena. Here's the message:

Quote

Howdy,

In the last year we have gone through some growing pains here at Z-Hat. We tried increasing staff, that did not work out. Consequently, delivery times have slowly krept up as new jobs come in, unfortunately many of the older jobs in the shop will be delivered 4 to 6 months past their original delivery dates as an estimate. New delivery dates for complete custom rifles are currently running 12-14 months.

I know some clients are concerned that I am hard to contact these days, the simple reason for this is that I am working in the shop trying to move more custom rifles out the door. Obviously we don't make money by storing guns, but by finishing the work and shipping to happy clients. So, the purpose of this message is to stay in touch and let you know I do realize that contact with clients is important.

Currently my inbox contains emails from over 500 individuals. So please be patient, if you have not heard from me on your question and it has been more than 3 weeks please contact me again.

We do appreciate your business and apologize for any inconvenience!

Fred Zeglin

scout34 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2007, 01:23:58 PM »

Just got word from Fred and a request for a progress payment. Says it should be ready in about 8 weeks

. Can't wait to get ahold of it and try it out.

scout34 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2008, 06:14:23 PM »

Got word last Friday that it would be ready to ship on Mon. or Tues.

scout34 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2008, 02:22:40 PM »

Got my .240 Hawk in the other day and was chagrined to find that the stock had been crushed in shipping!

Fred has a claim in with Fedex and we will see what happens. Hopefully a new HS Precision adjustable LOP stock.

Rifle looks great and weighs a TON!

. Can't wait to get shooting!

NONYA · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2008, 04:49:41 AM »

How was it packaged,takes a ton of weight to crush a stock!

beemanbeme · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2008, 06:21:20 AM »

EVERY business has its ins and outs, its ups and downs. The gun smithing trade ain't unique. As far as trying to blame it on the customer, I think after a couple of times of letting the customer change his mind in the middle of a job, you'd learn to get an understanding up front. Just like, after getting burned once, I get a understanding on about how long its gonna take and about what its gonna cost. Then I can decide if I want to wait that long or spend that much.
If a smith thinks he's so good, so special that he can tell me "I'll get it done when I get around to it and let you know when to send me a bunch of money" will watch me and my rifle walk out the door. Too many good smiths aound that know how to run a business AND do a good job to put up with that.

scout34 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2008, 12:50:12 AM »

I have nothing but good things to say about Fred Zeglin and Z-Hat. Having seen his work and dealt with him personally I can say that I would not hesitate to do it again. I can also say that my next bolt gun will probably be a custom number from his shop again, and I don't care if it takes years. It IS worth it.

Fred cut me one heck of a deal. I was in Iraq when I first contacted him and arranged for my custom Rem 700. He told me he would give me a break on the labor costs. I won't go into the specifics, but I thought there was a mistake with the billing. All he would say was,"Our records show paid in full."

I will unhesitatingly recommend Z-Hat for your next custom project.

Now for the bad news. The rifle was shipped in a Doskosport hard case inside of a cardboard sleeve. It appears that the LOP adjustment mechanism received some lateral pressure. Acting as a lever, it split the HS Precision stock along the seam at the top of the comb and let the adjustment mechanism fall out of the stock. It goes back to Fedex today, and I'm thinking new stock.

scout34 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2008, 12:22:42 AM »

Latest update. Fedex agrees they busted up my stock and will pay for it. Fred says new stock from H&S Precision should be there in 10-12 weeks.

H Talon · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2008, 05:12:13 AM »

Hi guys and gals ..

I ordered work from Z-Hat, back in 03-07 it's now 08-08 and he doesn't return or answer calls
I'm glad someone did get his work done. as for me I send emails and calls just ring,

I'll prob just have to file lawsuit to just get a response :-( sucks too cause I really wanted the
1895 I sent him back in 358 hawk. (sniff sniff) .

I've been really patient on this, but what can I say. sorry to flame a little being a newbie here

if I were to do it over again, I would have asked for his 8 to 10 months in writing, his claim of cutting
staff, and lack of responses to either emails or phone calls, shows a lack of professionalism and integrity.

really to bad too ...

again sorry to vent !!!!!

Talon

Catfish · « **Reply #25 on:** August 30, 2008, 07:33:44 AM »

Talon,
Sorry to hear that Fred is getting slack. The .411 I bought from him was one he had built for someone else that lived near him and the guy was getting a divorce and Fred was selling it for him so I got it quickly. I like his work and hope nothing bad has happened to him, but a year and 1/2 is way to long. Good luck, I hope your gun comes in the mail tommrow.

Graybeard · « **Reply #26 on:** August 30, 2008, 09:01:18 AM »

Quote from: H Talon on August 30, 2008, 05:12:13 AM

Hi guys and gals ..

I ordered work from Z-Hat, back in 03-07 it's now 08-08 and he doesn't return or answer calls
I'm glad someone did get his work done. as for me I send emails and calls just ring,

I'll prob just have to file lawsuit to just get a response :-( stinks too cause I really wanted the
1895 I sent him back in 358 hawk. (sniff sniff) .

I've been really patient on this, but what can I say. sorry to flame a little being a newbie here

if I were to do it over again, I would have asked for his 8 to 10 months in writing, his claim of cutting
staff, and lack of responses to either emails or phone calls, shows a lack of professionalism and integrity.

really to bad too ...

again sorry to vent !!!!!

Talon

Gonna be honest with ya that story is a little hard for me to buy into. I've called Fred many times and pretty much 100% of the time get him when I call. Me thinks you must be using a bad number or are not being completely honest with us here. Lots of folks seem to like to pile on in such threads as this and it sure seems to me that's all that's going on here.

H Talon · « **Reply #27 on:** August 30, 2008, 09:50:40 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on August 30, 2008, 09:01:18 AM

Quote from: H Talon on August 30, 2008, 05:12:13 AM

Hi guys and gals ..

I ordered work from Z-Hat, back in 03-07 it's now 08-08 and he doesn't return or answer calls
I'm glad someone did get his work done. as for me I send emails and calls just ring,

I'll prob just have to file lawsuit to just get a response :-( stinks too cause I really wanted the
1895 I sent him back in 358 hawk. (sniff sniff) .

I've been really patient on this, but what can I say. sorry to flame a little being a newbie here

if I were to do it over again, I would have asked for his 8 to 10 months in writing, his claim of cutting
staff, and lack of responses to either emails or phone calls, shows a lack of professionalism and integrity.

really to bad too ...

again sorry to vent !!!!!

Talon

Gonna be honest with ya that story is a little hard for me to buy into. I've called Fred many times and pretty much 100% of the time get him when I call. Me thinks you must be using a bad number or are not being completely honest with us here. Lots of folks seem to like to pile on in such threads as this and it sure seems to me that's all that's going on here.

Graybeard

would you like me to forward all my e-mails for the beginning

I'll even throw in the only # I have for him ?

I called last Monday and a person who said it was his son answered, I requested his father give me a call,
still no response. I sent 2 e-mails in the last on the 17th and the 20th, and the last email I sent was in
February the 15th and the 29th, just to show I'm not pestering him. I said

" Hi Fred ....

just thought I ask how my order is coming

it's been almost a year and I'm
really looking forward to getting it .. I was at the Shot show and was hopping you would
have had a booth but oh well ..

please let me know where we stand .....

Talon aka Henry

this is the second try .. please respond ... "

his responce

"Howdy,

I appreciate your amazing patience with me. We have reduced our staff and I am back to being the one and only. This improves quality, but kills the time flow. We had sold work for about 3 full time smiths when your rifle came in and I am digging my way out right now. I cannot give you a definate delivery date right now, but be assured, I do not make money by storying guns so I am working as fast as I can to get things out of here.

Again, I appreciate your patience and your business.

Fred Zeglin
www.z-hat.com
Expert Makers of Fine Custom Hunting Rifles "

I then tried the latest to contact him .. with the only # I could find , the same # I used to start all this in 07.
when the order was placed he gave me a 8 to 10 month wait, then it went to 12 months, and now @ 16 still
no word on responce

?

sorry if you don't believe me, I have found most established forum members don't trust newbies. to bad.

and if you do here from him or can contact him, I'd like a update. I don't think that would be to much for a
customer to ask. I have looked forward to having him do my rifle and that has been my goal. I was going
elk hunting in Oct. and I was expecting to have time to establish a load, square away the rifle ..
as you can tell that's out the window .. my lost,

be that as it may, if any one could pass the word or PM me a good number I would appreciate it.

Talon

H Talon · « **Reply #28 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:00:27 AM »

well guys and gals .. the saga is still on going .. It's almost a year since my last post and guess what
as of today I still don't have a rifle.. yep .. Z-Hat has had 2300.00 and my 1895 for about 3+ years
now .. he still won't return a call or e-mail .. what a unprofessional piece of poop. he moved his other
company to Montana, and the lady there is professional and returns calls to bad her boss can't say
same.

my suggestion to all is if you want him to do any work for you is to look elsewhere. It's a shame too !!

I still would like the rifle done, but how can you trust such unprofessional person who lacks integrity
and honor .. yes I'm ranting and I apologize !!!! I can send all the e-mails and prove the amount to
I've sent him and to prove my order to him. so assuming GB doesn't delete this, this is a warning to
all .. I can't say what his work is like but can attest to his lack of ethics, professionalism, honor, and even common courtesy. again sorry for the rant I'll go now :-)

Talon

oh and assuming I'm not banned from the site, I'll post if I ever see my gun again. maybe I should
call the ATF and have them check and see if Z-hat still has it. or has sold it to someone to get more
money... we'll see ..

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #29 on:** August 25, 2009, 12:22:19 AM »

I know of Z hat's reputation for high quality work but find it amazing that people are willing to put up with incredible long wait times. Is a name worth that much headache?