Author Topic: ENOUGH!!!!!!!  (Read 5559 times)

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Offline El Confederado

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ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« on: March 16, 2006, 09:32:24 AM »
Boys,

I have been around the block a time or two and have seen many things, but this is about as close to a forum killing itself in public I have ever seen. I realize there are a great many of us that feel strongly about the War of Northern Aggression as we call it and the Civil War as those in the North call it, however, a great many of the things that have been going on since I have been gone need to stop. I am not here to name names or point fingers. I am not here to call people out or even strike your posts down, but this crap needs to get wrangled in y'all. We all know who the troubled folks are , some Yank and some Confederate, fine, but here we are all treated the same, PERIOD.I think sometimes that many of these conflicting posts are from either the same person just under a different name or are being posted in conjuction with one enother to cause problems, I dont know and realy dont care. But now this mess is causing folks to leave and this is wrong. From this day forth, topics will be about the war or connected to the war. Topics will be of atleast a semi civil nature and not allowed to drag into name calling or any of this " you should feel guilty for what your ancestors did " garbage. I hope y'all understand why and for who I am forced to do these things and in the end I feel it will make things better for all.

Still Un-Reconstructed,

Johnnie  M Rodriguez II
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Offline buffalohunter

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2006, 03:20:02 PM »
I do appreciate you mentioning the proper name, War of Northern Aggression.

Have a good day.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2006, 05:00:15 PM »
"War of Northern Aggression" is a loaded, one-sided phrase. The northen equivalent is "War to Free the Slaves".

The phrase "Civil War" is the nuetral name for the conflict.
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Offline buffalohunter

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 02:26:05 PM »
Where I come from there is NOTHING nuetral about the War of Northern Aggression.
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Offline Dee

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2006, 02:30:36 AM »
I believe there was some slavery in the north as well, wasn't there. As I recall, the war started over the price of textiles, such as cotton, being sold to Europe, when the industriized north wanted them at a cheaper price. Also Lincoln was very much aware of the goings on at Camp Douglas near Chicago, during the war, where thousands of Conferderate soldiers were tortured, starved and killed just for being from the south. Not to condone slavery but, the north and south were guilty of it. Percentage wise is irrevalent. Both sides did it. Less than 5% of southerners owned slaves at its pentacle. The real issues were states rights. Had the south complied, in regards to the sale of textiles to the north without being forced (the war) I suspect that slavery in the south and some limited slavery in the north would have continued unchecked for several more years or decades for that matter. Money and power seems more the issue. States rights died at Appromadox. My family (or should I say ancestors) the Cherokee refused to surrender at Appromaddox and were punished by the winning goverment for years. They were refused American citizenship. One might say that was another issue I suppose, but the winner of a war is not necessarily the most rightous one. My grandfather was not made an American citizen until he was past a year old by this northern goverment. As I said, I am against slavery, but strongly feel states rights should be restored. The beginning of the UNCIVIL war marked the beginning of an ever growing repression of Americans by the goverment. JMHO
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline buffalohunter

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2006, 02:15:16 PM »
I agree with alot of what you said, not all but a good bit. As far as I am concerned the north winning the war destroyed what this country was intended to be by the founding fathers.

Appreciate your post, very informative.
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Offline Dee

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2006, 05:36:40 PM »
It is truly an issue of states rights today as far as I am concerned. When I go to Court House in the county I live, and grew up in, and I look at the VERY TALL stature of a Confederate Soldier on the lawn, along with other monuments erected by the Daughters of the Confedaracy, and when I drive past a newly discovered cementary with a MEMORIAL CEROMONY being held for a Confederate Soldier buried there I look around and realize that the rest of the country is asleep. We have lost much of our history, and freedom and most people don't realize or care. It is not politically correct to recognize the many truths behind what actually caused the UNCIVIL war.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ironfoot

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 05:24:40 PM »
Dee

We will have to disagree about the primary cause of the war. The South seceded when northerner Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery Republican platform. The north fought to preserve the Union. The South fought to preserve slavery. This has been discussed in prior posts.

But I find your family history interesting. When you stated :

"My family (or should I say ancestors) the Cherokee refused to surrender at Appromaddox and were punished by the winning goverment for years. They were refused American citizenship."

it made me wonder, were they American citizens before the war?

Best regards,
Ironfoot
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Offline Dee

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2006, 03:32:11 AM »
No, they were hinderances to the population, and the goverment delt with it. They (the Cherokee) were moved at "GUN POINT" by the Washington based army, out of the Carolinas, Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama, to Oklahoma. Their farms and porperty were siezed and given to white northerners. My father's Great Grandmother used to tell Dad stories about how the soilders would make them leave children and old, or sick people in the woods on what we call, and history calls. The Trail of Tears. My Great Great Grandmother was a little girl, and was lucky enough to be strong enough to walk all the way. As for the major reason for seccession, my history in my part of the country states that the north had placed a 10% export tariff on cotton and other textiles that the south was selling to Europe, trying to force the south to sell at a cheaper price to the northern businesses. It didn't work, as the profit was still there. Lincoln promised that if he were elected he would raise the tariff to 20% thereby forcing the souths hand by financial stress. Florida, I believe, stated that if Lincoln won they would seceed, but, one of the Carolinas beat them to it. It could have been the other way around on which state. I don't remember. There was some slavery in the north, and less than 5% of the southerners owned slaves. This is not to say slavery was right, it wasn't. It was more of the pot calling the kettle black and as always with the goverment, catering to greed. Another point seperately, was a prison camp in Chicago, mistreated and killed so many confederate prisioners that Chicagoians began helping the prisioners. Lincoln allowed, gave permission actually, for the military to declare marshal law on Chicago. Lincoln was not the great liberator and humanitarian many people think he was. He basically destroyed STATES RIGHTS for all time catering to northern BIG BUSINESS.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ironfoot

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2006, 10:15:35 PM »
The Southern states stated why they were seceding. You can read their reasons here:

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#South%20Carolina

South Carolia was first to secede. It's pretty clear that "states rights" meant the right to own slaves.

But back to your family history...were your ancestors accepted in the pre Civil War South, but forced to give up their land by the federal government after the war? This is a part of post Civil War history which I know little about. I understand that the Cherokee had been quite good at adopting to a European economic lifestyle based on farming and craftsmanship?
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Offline OSPD312

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2006, 12:18:05 PM »
FIirst oF all the  war was fought over tariffs on cotton... 4 southern states were paying almost 75% of the nations revenue from cotton taxes. Second of all it was not illegal at that time to own a slave. Several Northen states still  had slaves (whom were not freed till after the war).Therefore if you FOUGHfought Tover slavery its an unconstituional war. Lincoln was no lover of blacks and he stated frequentle  that they were not equal to white and should never hold office or vote.

Before Ft. sumter was fired on the South had sent a group of men to see Lincoln to possibly see if the war could be stopped and Lincoln refused to see them. Also the North had senta ship to Charleston Harbor to reenforce the fort and when it was told to turn backit did not and had shots fired over its bow...The ship was the Star of the West..Loaded with men and ammo. Also Lincoln violated the Constitution numerous times during the war. Habeus Corpus for example. and dividing a state without approval (West VA). Not to mention the war crimes against the South(read the sack and destruction of columbia S.C.). You always hear of Southern Prison camps and how bad they were. There were 6,000 more Southerners to die in Northern camps, than Northerners in Southern camps. Point Lookout,MD for example. Just a few facts.

Jack
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Offline Dee

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2006, 05:17:49 PM »
The Southern states stated why they were seceding. You can read their reasons here:

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#South%20Carolina

South Carolia was first to secede. It's pretty clear that "states rights" meant the right to own slaves.

But back to your family history...were your ancestors accepted in the pre Civil War South, but forced to give up their land by the federal government after the war? This is a part of post Civil War history which I know little about. I understand that the Cherokee had been quite good at adopting to a European economic lifestyle based on farming and craftsmanship?

No they were not. They had adopted the white commerce style of living and had become quite successful at it, and had even began inter-marrying with whites. One of their Chiefs was a man named John Ross who was only 1/8th Cherokee, and whom greatly opposed them being displaced. In the winter of 1838-39, 14,000 Cherokees were gathered up and forced to march on foot, 1,200 thru Tennessee, Kentucky, Illinois, Mississippi and Arkansas to Indian Territory (now Oklahoma). Over 4,000 died on the march from hunger, exposure, and disease. There are many stories in these states where children were found wandering and abandoned. Many were raised by white families. My Great Grandmother told stories of how her mother ( then a child) was not allowed to ride but, forced to walk. Soldiers would walk up behind the old and the sick and bump them with their horses causing them to fall. They wouldn't let other Cherokees help them and most were left to die. This tactic sped the march up for the soldiers. This march was and is called "THE TRAIL OF TEARS". My Grandfather and Father moved to Texas in the 30s because the whites still treated the Cherokee and other tribes badly. Their land once again had been taken when oil was discovered, and they could not even own land without a white sponsor. In the fifties when we went to visit relatives in Oklahoma, if I was allowed to go to town, I was warned not to tell anyone I was Cherokee, ( I'm light skinned) as many still treated them badly, along with other tribes.
As for the UNCIVIL war, the Cherokee, Choctaw and others joined the Confederacy hoping for better treatment if the Confederacy won. They really had nothing to loose. When Lee surrendered at Appromaddox, the Cherokee would not. They knew they would be treated badly regardless.  You can find out more about the TRAIL OF TEARS at our tribal web site. Just search Cherokee in Talliquah, Ok. That's where our tribal headquarters is located.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ironfoot

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2006, 04:02:50 PM »
Dee
I knew a little of the story of the Trail of Tears. Thank you for sharing some family details. Can't help but cringe at how badly people can treat each other. Hope your family is happy, healthy and successful now.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2006, 04:09:03 PM »
OSPD312
Did you read the Declaration of Causes of Seceding States?
They spoke a lot more about preserving slavery than about tariffs.

Mississppi was quite clear about it, stating:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

No tariffs were enacted under Lincoln's presidency before the secession occurred.
Prior tariffs may have been an irritant, but they did not cause secession.
It was when Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery Republican platform that the secession began.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Dee

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2006, 04:16:22 PM »
Dee
I knew a little of the story of the Trail of Tears. Thank you for sharing some family details. Can't help but cringe at how badly people can treat each other. Hope your family is happy, healthy and successful now.

We are not like other so called minorities. The men that treated my families ancestors badly are dead and have received their reward. I am an American as are my Sons and Daughter, and my grandchildren. Dwelling on the past is a waste of time. Forgetting it is to repeat it. I am more concerned with an out of control goverment stepping on all our rights as Americans now, than a hundred and fifty years ago.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Ramrod

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2006, 03:43:48 PM »
El Confederado> Como esta usted mi amigo?
I have been away for awhile also. I stay out of all these recent debates, but I think Dee has hit the nail on the head. I love to read about history, but it's better to learn and then go foward. The government is our common enemy, not each of us against the other.


"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline Telahnay's g'son

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2006, 01:49:26 PM »
Along the lines of what Dee covered, the Indian Removal(s) were a series of extractions (some voluntary and some at bayonet point) involving primarily the Five Civilized tribes from the southeastern part of the country.

Andrew Jackson initiated the forced marches by means of using a small scale gold discovery in NW Georgia as the catalyst.

There were several routes (land & water) used for these movements with the infamous Trail of Tears being the one getting most of the publicity as ~25% of the participants died either from Typhoid fever (moved them in late summer during the height of Typhus season), malnutrition or the weather elements on the western end of the trip.

My great, great grandmother (Telahnay) was a Yuchi medicine woman who along with her younger sister (after the rest of the family had been massacred by white river pirates on the Tennessee river in north Alabama) were among resident NA's caught in "mop-up" removal operations in the late 1830's to early 1840's.  She stayed in Oklahoma for a couple of years before "sneaking" back home to see if any of the other family members were still alive.  The trip covered 700 miles and took almost three years to complete.  She's buried in one of our family cemeteries just a few yards south of the Tennessee state line near Little Cypress Creek.  www.ifthelegendsfade.com is the website where you can learn more about her and the book a cousin wrote covering this saga.

If something like these removals were tried by Washington today they'd be dragged into court for "crimes against humanity".

Also, Stand Watie was a Cherokee chief and the last Confederate general to lay down arms against the yankees.

The Oklahoma land runs (post-1865) were simply confiscation of former Cherokee lands in Oklahoma as a punitive action against them for supporting the Confederacy.

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Offline hellbilly075

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2007, 02:48:58 AM »
As a side note the War of Northern Aggression had very little to do with slavery. If you are a student of history you will also note that Lincolns so called Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the south, northern slaves weren't freed till '56 or so....Hellbilly
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Offline flyboy

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2007, 03:30:49 AM »
Good for you, Confederato!

Geez, and I thought this sort of discussion was something high school students did during lunch hour. I can't remember a similar discussion since I graduated, a couple of lifetimes ago.  It's easy to see where today's "victim mentality"  springs from.

Ancient history is just that. It would be just as productive to discuss corruption in the Rome of Julius Caesar's time.

Born in Maine, raised in the deep south since I was 6 weeks old, my dad hated Abraham Lincoln, and most of the rest of humanity, too.   Somehow, in that area, I was not quite as superior as my "purebred" southern classmates.  Never could figure that one out, because my southern great-grandfather was wounded in that war, whatever you please to call it. 

Man's inhumanity to each other and the ability to attach lofty motives to atrocity is only matched by the tendency to  rediscuss  (at great length)  ancient and  irrelevant issues , which are characteristics that our representatives in Washington have raised to a high art.

Some subjects  are best left alone, or at least debated with facts and logic, and/or with minimal  civility and good manners.  But, if that happened, whatever it is would cease to be an issue in about 30 seconds or less, and where's the "fun" in that?   .

Without the politicians' "wisdom", none of the above would have happened, and I am sure glad we have wiser, more compassionate representatives in Washington, nowadays.  :D :D   Aren't you?  ;D

Offline jamesrus

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2007, 09:44:08 AM »
 FLYBOY

The reason people like to rehash the history of the world, is that we are doomed to repeat history if we dont remember what happened before.  Why do people like to discuss the roman empire? Because the totalitarian rule of the empire led to its eventual downfall. The people had enough, and the Germanic tribes invaded its territory. Germany , in WW! and WW2 decided it wanted to control all Europe. The Civil war was not just about slavery, although it was a part of it, it was about money and control of the government. Hmm, sounds like the current situation we are in. It all about money in Iraq, terrorism was just the excuse. Vietnam, the excuse....to control the spread of communism...NO! Money !......We hadnt had a good war in several years, and the military and large military suppliers were hungry for new bombs, new planes, new tanks, and such. So lets make an excuse, lets get involved in a country which has no effect on ours whatsoever. YAY, the US flexes its muscle again, and gets WHOOPED by a small third world nation in the jungle. (although i understand who was supplying N. Vietnam).  So yes we will keep on rehashing history till we are all blue in the face, but it will be because it is better to remember than to forget.

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Offline The Gamemaster

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 06:25:39 AM »
Dee

We will have to disagree about the primary cause of the war. The South seceded when northerner Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery Republican platform. The north fought to preserve the Union. The South fought to preserve slavery. This has been discussed in prior posts.

But I find your family history interesting. When you stated :

"My family (or should I say ancestors) the Cherokee refused to surrender at Appomattox and were punished by the winning government for years. They were refused American citizenship."

it made me wonder, were they American citizens before the war?

Best regards,
Ironfoot

Anyone that studied 'American History' will tell you that Slavery was not the issue that led to the civil war, it was just a related issue.

Any educated person would tell you that slavery was already on the way out - when the war began anyways.

The Industrialized North was already ahead of the South - because the South was an Agrarian society - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An agrarian society is one that is based on agriculture as its prime means for support and sustenance. The society acknowledges other means of livelihood and work habits but stresses on agriculture and farming, and was the main form of socio-economic organization for most of recorded human history.

This was the common way for Medieval European countries to gain wealth. Change in agrarian practices occurred first in England in the 18th century, with the British Agricultural Revolution, and then subsequently later spread to the rest of Europe and the United States.

Offline The Gamemaster

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2008, 06:31:40 AM »
Man power was being replaced by horsepower and the days of running a small plantation with the help of several dozen Negro's was out of the question.

You had to feed, house, clothe and take care of all of their health care needs - along with their family's when they reproduced.  When they got old, you still had to care for them - with little or no profit to yourself.

It was cheaper to free the slaves and then hire them for minimum wage and then let them go - when they got past their prime and then make the government take care of them the rest of their lives with relief programs and social security than it was to burden them on some plantation owner.

Even if the war never happened, slavery would have been a thing of the past in another 10 to 20 years anyways.

It's just that in a simplistic society - where we like to tell a story and then have a moral to the story - namely that slavery was bad and good Mr. Lincoln did us this big favor and freed the colored people - is all a bunch of bull - because nobody is free - because we all have to go to work to make a living and save for our retirement - when we get too old to be productive anymore.

Offline deltecs

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2008, 02:49:21 PM »
While slavery, states rights, and union preservation all impacted the causes of the war, I think it went much deeper.  Gamemaster is closest to the actual cause IMO.  Alvin Toffler, an economist of note, wrote in his book the "Third Wave" of the domino effects on society from moving from an agricultural one to industrial.  The 3rd wave is the effects of moving from an industrial society into one of technology.  Each transition has cause and effect on our political, social, and moral values.  Of note is that every agricultural nation in the world, when moving into the industrial one, had some major internal conflict.  England was the most industrialized nation in the world, had its revolution that became the US.  The 13 original colonies were unto themselves the 2rd most industrialized area in the world at that time.  We in turn had our own Civil War.  France had its revolution, so did Russia, Japan, and even Cuba.  Not one in existence today, did not have civil internal strife of some kind during this transition.   Toffler implies the same internal strife is going on right now with the technological nations, all due the cause and effect with this transition.  I'm somewhat inclined to believe it.  Since we have no past history of any nation in the transition to a society based on technology from one based on industry, we have no way of knowing exactly what the cause and effects are going to be.   Since we do know that the transition from one standard to another has brought conflict historically, there is justification to reason that there will one with the transition to a technological one.   I think this is the true reason for our civil war and we may yet have another, but not along the geopolitical lines as drawn then.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2008, 07:28:00 PM »
"It's just that in a simplistic society - where we like to tell a story and then have a moral to the story - namely that slavery was bad and good Mr. Lincoln did us this big favor and freed the colored people - is all a bunch of bull - because nobody is free - because we all have to go to work to make a living and save for our retirement - when we get too old to be productive anymore."

 You really don't see the difference between being a slave and being an employee working for wages?
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Lone Star

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2008, 04:23:55 PM »
Sorry, miss-post.



..........

Offline Cabin4

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2008, 03:50:36 PM »
Of course, the title of this forum could NOT be a source that invites and incites strong written posts and follow up responses!!!!!

Of course not. ;)

Let me make a suggestion, why don't we have a forum called: Civil War AKA War against Southern Human Rights Violations. That wouldn't incite any strong posts or responses either.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 06:12:45 AM »
"It's just that in a simplistic society - where we like to tell a story and then have a moral to the story - namely that slavery was bad and good Mr. Lincoln did us this big favor and freed the colored people - is all a bunch of bull - because nobody is free - because we all have to go to work to make a living and save for our retirement - when we get too old to be productive anymore."

 You really don't see the difference between being a slave and being an employee working for wages?

Do you really think that working for minimun wages isn't slavery? How about trying to live off of SS? Get Real!
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 06:34:43 AM »
When an army invades it should have something positive to take home . Other than Debt what was won ? How did the people of the North prosper from the invasion onto the South ?
The Slaves , how were they elevated ? Look around it ain't fixed yet !
Please excuse me but the war only hurt South , Slave and north !

By the way why did Lincon wait so long to free the slaves ?

The topic is so hot because we are still suffering for the great northern mistake !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 06:38:15 AM »
Come to think of it , it started a new way to fight wars ,
                             The south
                              Korea
                               V.N.
                               Gulf
                                ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Cabin4

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Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2008, 10:15:01 AM »
?
The Slaves , how were they elevated ? Look around it ain't fixed yet !

Give me a break!! Since when is slavery still in practice? I suppose since we are looking at likly the first black president, we still have slavery........
Avery Hayden Wallace
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