Author Topic: Rifle to Handgun??? (Read 1829 times)

Lawful Larry · « **on:** March 20, 2006, 04:18:02 AM »

I know this is probably going to get a me a lot ot stones thrown at me, but here goes. Can I take my Encore that came as a muzzle loader and put pistol grips and a 15" barrel and change it to a handgun.

I was at another forum and it sounded like I can't do this. I thought that TC had this straightened with those jack booted thugs at BATF. I thought the Supreme Court said it could be done. Am I wrong. Is it illegal to take a frame that originally was sold as a rifle and make it a handgun? :cry:

PaulS · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2006, 07:05:27 AM »

Lawful Larry,

You are going to get comments on both sides of this question.
The BATF says that you can't take a rifle and convert it to a pistol without going through the process of paying the tax and license fee and having it classed as a "short barreled rifle".

As I understand the court rulings it is a different story with the TC conversions. The frames are not sold as "rifles" or "pistols" - they are sold as a component of a "convertible process" They can therefore be changed from rifle to pistol and back without special licensing.
The courts have ruled that the TC Contenders are only a "rifle" or a "pistol" when "assembled" by the end user. Therefore the frames are not "rifles or pistols until assembled and can be assembled as either.

If you want an answer that will be definitive then contact Thompson Center about it and let them tell you what the legal decisions have been.

http://www.tcarms.com/

click on the "Contact" button on the left side of the screen and ask away.

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:10:38 AM »

You can't do it legally. The Encore manual spells it out. You could legally add a longer barrel to an Encore frame that had been purchased as a handgun. Physically, the frames are identical. Legally they are not.

The rules are very clear and unambiguous.

Greybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:58:26 AM »

There is NO case law on this subject. The lawsuit TC won had NOTHING to do with this subject. TC's legal department will not comment. Tim Panukli (sp) used to but many do not believe the response he gave was true. I don't think they reply at all to it any longer. What he once told me was all frames are shipped as handguns. Dunno.

If you ask BATFE most of the time you will be told it's NOT legal. But some times you might get someone to say it is. Doubtful either will put it in writing.

TC does now ship GUNS not components, used to be they didn't. This is especially true of rifles and more especially so muzzle loader rifles.

The basic law is that you cannot turn a rifle into a handgun. So if the frame left as a muzzle loader rifle you cannot legally make it into a handgun. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to get you tossed in federal prison. I hear that's not a fun place to be.

I personally feel the Second Amendment is all the law needed and all the rest is unconstituional. BUT the courts don't agree with me. Unless you want to be the test case on this I suggest you DO NOT TRY IT.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2006, 09:11:38 AM »

I buy all my Encore frames as pistols anymore. Then I can do what I want to them. I do have a couple that I bought as muzzleloader's and I only use them as muzzleloader's or rifles. I just keep a record of which I bought as pistols. I have 5 Encore frames in all.

riddleofsteel · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:43:17 PM »

here is a good reference to the case you are thinking about

USA vs TC

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

jeager106 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2006, 02:29:23 PM »

Quote from: Lawful Larry

I thought that TC had this straightened with those jack booted thugs at BATF. :cry:

Just a thought Larry. You never know how many "jack booted thugs" are members here.
:-D

Just a word to the wise. You are on a very public site and everything you say here is recorded for posterity. :oops:
I'm retired LEO and did 10 years of my career as a criminal investigator.
I worked with BATF Cleveland and a better, bunch of ladies and gentlemen never lived.
All but one were former street cops with good sense and respect for private gun ownership.
Most BATF are good cops. It's the libs that get control of the steering wheel ya gotta watch out for. :evil:
Just a thought.

Qaz · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2006, 01:20:32 AM »

Larry, I contacted the state police and asked the question of barrel length for a pistol. I was told that if it starts as a rifle it will always be a rifle even with a pistol grip and if the barrel gets shorter than 16 inches then it is illegal, but if it starts as a pistol it can have a 20 inch barrel and it is still a pistol.

Qaz

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2006, 04:16:33 AM »

Ya know I feel like Abbott and Costello and whose on first with this question on the Encore.

I called TC and so far I am getting no where. The lady I talked to started to tell me it had to deal with the state I lived in. She said that I would have to register it as a handgun if I wanted to convert it. I explained that in Va. we don't have to register any guns and she was confused. I also told her that I was worried about the BATF and she said that they don't deal with them. Now I was confused. She then transferred me to someone named Brian and I am waiting for him to call me back.

Will let you guys know what he says. :?

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2006, 04:50:25 AM »

Well this is just getting better all the time!!!

TC called back and said the only restriction was with state laws and not the BATF.

So I called my state police and talked to three people and none could give me a difinitive answer. It looks like I am back to square one. I think I will press on with my plan and have fun. Don't know what else to say or do.

Thanks for all the responses guys.

NE Hunter · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:54:57 AM »

LL, If I remember right ... when the gun is transfered and the paper work is done it's either a long gun or a handgun the serriel number is registered as what it was when it left the factory frm TC to it's distributor, the disrtibutor then has a record of who it distributed the gun to ( the retailer) the retailer has ledger of who this gun was transfered to and if it was a long gun or hand gun. Once it's registered as such that is what it is .... you can put a longer barrel on a hand gun ( BATF rules) but not a short barrel on a long gun.

doncisler · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:58:11 AM »

not sure if the encore is different than the contender.
i have been warned to not mix parts. in other words to not put a pistol barrel and carbine stock or a carbine barrel and pistol stock (grip) together.
never have seen warnings about converting completely from one to other and the link from riddleofsteel seems to verify this.

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2006, 10:10:19 AM »

Quote

I think I will press on with my plan and have fun. Don't know what else to say or do.

Then I guess we need to change your user name to UNLAWFUL Larry or perhaps Soon to be in federal prison Larry. :lol:

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2006, 11:28:23 AM »

Bill, I don't know what to say. Seems I call the people that should know and they give me some answers and some don't have a clue. What is a guy to do?

I gues I will call the BATF tomorrow and see if they can give an honest answer. :-D

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2006, 11:36:40 AM »

Quote

I gues I will call the BATF tomorrow and see if they can give an honest answer.

Now that ought to prove to be an interesting conversation. :eek: Let me predict it for you based on my personal experience.

Call and you'll get no comitment but a promise they will call back which they will not. You'll need to put it in writing. Do it via e-mail to the DC site of theirs. Then ask in writing to a more local office. When the replies come they will be 180 degrees opposite each other. Been there done that.

The bottom line you should be looking at if you wish to be legal and stay out of jail is this:

1. Federal law prohibits making a handgun from a rifle.

2. The TC Court decision DID NOT address the specifics of the issue but merely whether it was legal for TC to offer the rifle conversion kit namely a rifle shoulder stock and rifle length barrels. At the time all frames previous to that had been sold as handguns or frames only.

3. There is no case law established regarding making a handgun from a rifle using the TC Frame.

4. If you wish to be the test case and hope to win carry on and be sure to make it well know to BATFE who you are and what you're gonna do so they can come to your home and make you that test case.

Me I'll pass.

KN · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2006, 12:43:48 PM »

Lawful Larry, Not saying either way but unless you did some thing really stupid and got youself arrested for some thing that would prompt them to investigte the gun, Who would ever know? They would have to dig up the FFL forms to verrify how it was originally sold. I would imagine there are many thousands of TC's out there that have been sold numerous times and no one would have any idea how it was originally configured. Unless you killed some one with it I doubt it could ever be an issue.

Qaz · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2006, 01:34:48 AM »

Larry, I live in VA. Read my reply. I was told this by the VA state police and was told that's the way it is, no if ands or buts! The officer that gave me this info owns multiple T/C firearms. Barrel length and convertability was no joke to the two officers that I spoke to and it won't be to you if you get caught with the wrong barrel on the wrong frame.

KN- you are dumb for thinking that way. You don't have to do something stupid, just be unlucky.

KN · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2006, 12:02:35 PM »

I didn't say I condone it. I just said it would be nearly impossible to tell. Lets get real, How many on this site alone have bought a used frame only from an individual or at a gun show or what ever. Theres no way for you to even know for sure. KN

Heavyhaul · « **Reply #18 on:** March 23, 2006, 05:44:02 PM »

Larry, I don't know how it is in VA. In Pa I have had great experiences with the PA Attorney General, State Rep., and my Fed. Rep. They want to get re-elected and they are public servants. With what our goverment costs us in taxes, put them to work and keep the documentation. In PA I would have to have it regestered as a pistol and I would be good to go.

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** March 23, 2006, 06:45:40 PM »

Again you're falling into the trap of making assumptions based on state law. FEDERAL law is what prohibits the use of a rifle to make a handgun. State law does NOT trump federal law. It don't matter what you're state boys tell you as regards state law the violation is a federal one. Why is that so hard for folks to understand?

True you MAY never get caught. BUT you've already posted it on a wide open forum visited regularly by federal authorities. Do you honestly think they cannot if they wish to figure out who you are? Do you honestly think an open admission in public to violating a federal law cannot be tracked back to you? Geez guys I'm trying to help you stay out of trouble but if you wanna be the test case to see if this federal law will once again stand up in court by all means go ahead.

Heavyhaul · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2006, 06:55:24 PM »

Graybeard, If you read my post, I am just giving recomendations for infor mation. I am not telling him what to do. It is not hard for me to understand. He was asking a question and I was trying to give him some leads for info. I always error on the safe side. With the job I have I can not afford to have any other philosophy and I would not recomend anyting other than that. I am just wondering if you are telling him not to ask? If he wants to do it correctly, he has to ask.

Qaz · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2006, 03:11:36 AM »

FYI- the only time state law take presedents over federal law, is if the state law is more strict than federal law.
For those that have trouble with this concept, let me simplify.

Daddy lays the law down in this house and you follow his rules, unless mommy tightens the rules up and says any less will get you an a$$ beating. Then you follow that rule!

GOT IT!

Graybeard · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2006, 04:33:31 AM »

The point I'm trying to make here is that on this site any time I see someone recommending or suggesting actions known to be illegal I am going to either call attention to the error of it or just outright delete the thread. I will not knowingly allow illegal information to be posted and not challenged.

tripper · « **Reply #23 on:** March 29, 2006, 05:19:33 PM »

Here is my expierence, I bought my first encore a year ago as a rifle, the next day I was kicking myself for not picking the frame up before the barrle came in so I could of regestered it as a handgun. A week or so later I went into the shop again and through conversation I mentioned it to the owner. He was suprised with what I said about not being able to change my rife into a hand gun. Being he was headed to the factory gun show he said he would check with TC on it. The understanding that he got from TC was that is What GB is trying to tell everybody.
DO NOT change a rifle into a handgun. GB and the other fellow are also rite on the fact that the only time state law supperceeds federal law is if the state law is more restictive.

Dean van Praotl · « **Reply #24 on:** March 29, 2006, 10:18:38 PM »

Quote from: Lawful Larry

I don't know what to say. What is a guy to do?

Go to your favorite gun emporium and buy another Encore, this time one that's already a pistol. No more worries, and you know you want it....

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 30, 2006, 02:00:47 AM »

My concern here is, what if you buy a used Encore pistol for someone. What if they bought it as a rifle and switched it to a pistol without your knowledge or if they bought it from someone else and they did not even know it was switched. I know ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but I think it can happen. Would going to a FFL and registering it as a pistol change the statue of the frame? To add to this, if a gun shop sells a Encore pistol they took in on a trade, but it was registered as a rifle to the original owner and then sold as a pistol, who really knows how it was first registered. :? :? :?

Qaz · « **Reply #26 on:** March 30, 2006, 04:32:32 AM »

Redhawk, Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you loan said firearm to a friend who then commits a felony and the firearm is traced back to you as a pistol when in reality it was originally sold as a rifle, you are now in violation of the law. Make sure you use the right barrel on the right frame. You can twist it in your head any way you want, but that does not change the law as it is written. I may be wrong on this but I don't believe that the original registration can be change. Cutting a Rem 700 down will make a XP-100 clone, but it is still a rifle, not a pistol.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2006, 07:21:13 AM »

Qaz, you need to read my post again and again until you understand what I wrote. As you can see I wrote exactly what you posted. I know " Ignorance of the law is no excuse" as I wrote in my post. :roll:

There is nothing twisted in my head as you put it. I was just stating a fact, that if a gun shop sells you a Encore pistol that was taken in on a trade and the gun shop has no idea how it was originally sold, then it is resold as a pistol, what is it a pistol or rifle? I know the law states once sold as a rifle it is always a rifle. That is why I buy most of my Encore frames as pistol frames and I keep a inventory of serial number and annotate them as a pistol or rifle frame. It is buyer beware. Do you still follow me here?

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2006, 12:52:40 PM »

Hi Guys:

I shouldn't but I will stick my nose into part of this one and give you another long thread. The Contender thing I can not help you with. Except to say that you should not take chances if there is a doubt, error on the side of caution. It would be a foolish thing for a agent/officer to get that nit picky but some LE will, trust me I know! Now I would like to comment on Larry's remarks.

I am retired federal LE (yep one of them thugs) :lol: . I understand what Larry is trying to say when he states Jack booted thugs. He is frustrated and I do not take offense to it. Matter of fact somtimes I agree with it, partly. There are officers that have earned that title I have worked with them and we are all aware of some incidents in the past that were not right (nuff said). There are good fed agents and bad ones. Just like postal workers and McDonalds workers.

I have known agents/officers that were too motivated in their enforcement of the law. Some way to motivated and over bearing, and they gave the rest of us a bad name. I had chance during my employment with three different federal agencies to make contact with armed citizens. Both hunters, gang types and all the rest. I have never felt the need to disarm the average American citizen/hunter that I have come in contact with, (read not going to arrest for a crime, but just made contact with). I did not feel the need to treat them as criminals nor speak to them as such. I had a co-worker once that lost it every time he met someone with a gun (read hunter/permit holder) He once told me only cops should have guns. That made me loose it! I tried every thing possible to make him see he was wrong. I gave him all the arguments but nothing worked and I was glad when he transfered. Not all of us dislike the armed citizen. I wish someone would have the stats on just how many federal/state and local LE have been helped by the average joe blow with a gun. I don't know it but I bet there are a few.

So chear up Larry we ain't all bad! I would have walked out the door before I would have violated a citizens constitutional rights. My father raised me better than that! I hope you find the right person to answer your questions.

Graybeard · « **Reply #29 on:** March 30, 2006, 01:07:42 PM »

The plain hard cold facts of the matter is that it is always what it started life as UNLESS and UNTIL you take the legal action with BATFE to change it to something else and pay any required fees. That's assuming it's even legal to change it as you wish. What you know and what you can know has absolutely no bearing on it. BATFE can know if they wish to and if you're ever checked by a law enforcement agent you'll know that too.